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Funny how it's always those "workshy" poor people who are the probelm, eh?

 
 
Nobody's girl
13:30 / 02.02.05
Graunaid article

I've been on incapacity benefit when I was very ill with depression. Being forced to attend "work-focused interviews" with some patronising, contemptuous jobcentre drone on a bi-weekly basis would certainly not have aided my recovery and almost certainly would have exacerbated my agoraphobia.

When suffering with mental illness, I have found grappling with the benefits system to be the number one external source of stress in my life. It's made to be that way so that you don't bother with it unless you really have to, yet if you really have to it makes your life a misery! What an awful way to treat the vulnerable. Tony obviously wants to make the whole process more difficult because it'll win him votes in a sought after demographic and to hell with the poor. What a git.
 
 
Peach Pie
14:04 / 02.02.05
Still deciding what I think about this, NG. Sorry to hear you're distressed.

Presumably the reforms are based on the premise that a lot of people who claim to be too ill to work actually aren't. Most lay people wouldn't have the resources to make an informed judgment on this one way or the other.

Sadly the prospects for people incapacitated by sickness have always been miserable.
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:12 / 02.02.05
I've pulled myself outta that slough of despond, goldfish, I just remember how difficult my life was as a result of benefits bullshit and am outraged at this exploitation.
 
 
Triplets
17:36 / 02.02.05
Okay, so:

1. The benefits system was not the cause of your problems
2. You managed to surmount said problems despite the benefits system, so the system can't be that bad.

Therefore the system works in some respects and is not the bureaucratic nightmare you make it out to be.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:53 / 02.02.05
Well yes, the system DOES work in some respects... I think what a lot of people are worried about is that the respects in which it works may no longer be an issue with these new reforms.

I've never been on IB myself, but I'm getting really pissed off with hearing Mr Tony and his mates on the radio saying stuff about "no, we don't think these people are faking it, but we think they COULD work"... so which is it, Blair old boy? Cos they can't both be true... Or, heaven forfend, is this another of those initiatives which massages the numbers so it LOOKS like society's better off, when really all it means is that the very people the welfare state is supposed to be looking after no longer count? Out of sight, out of mind, eh?
 
 
Nobody's girl
00:50 / 03.02.05
Yup Stoatie you hit the nail on the head, for me.

1. The benefits system was not the cause of your problems

I don't believe I said it was, and that's an awfully nasty tone you're taking there sir. My point was that apart from the hell I was going through internally was the additional benefits nightmare that I had to grapple with externally. I believe the treatment I received and the hoops I was expected to jump through were unacceptable for any person in so vulnerable a position. I'm unhappy that the procedures are to be made more difficult just to satisfy the hysterics of middle England and ensure Tony's third term, IMHO.

2. You managed to surmount said problems despite the benefits system, so the system can't be that bad.

Aye and there's the rub, eh? Damned if you can cope and damned if you can't. Anyway, I personally didn't cope. I gave up my claim, the stress was too much. I'm still paying off rent arrears from that time. I managed to help myself overcome a great deal of my mental health issues with the help of a sympathetic GP and a good counsellor. I very much doubt you'll meet a person with mental health issues who has a single good word to say about the benefits agency. We know better.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:07 / 04.02.05
The benefits system is typically horrible to cope with for the people who need it most and if you speak to a lot of the people who help benefit claimants- particularly mental health workers, you'll find that the idea of making it even more difficult is slated.

so the system can't be that bad.

Well I'd suggest that anything that involves so much beauracracy is awful when you can't actually get out of bed in the morning. And you know dear, some people can't.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:19 / 04.02.05
You managed to surmount said problems despite the benefits system, so the system can't be that bad.

There's also an implication here that anything that doesn't ACTUALLY KILL YOU must therefore not be a cause for concern. I'm sure that wasn't what you meant... was it?
 
 
Ganesh
14:35 / 04.02.05
Hmm. I have very mixed feelings about this. "Mental health issues" covers an enormous spectrum of situations and, while the more severely or acutely ill are gonna be incapable, the mild-to-moderate or more chronic people may well actually benefit from the structure and social stimulation that, say, regular part-time employment can bring. There's a wealth of research out there to support this, and I daresay Tony & co. could readily point to it.

But.

Trying to chivvy the chronically unwell into working by making the benefit hoops more complex seems an utterly wrongheaded way of changing things. I've seen people, as their illnesses improve slightly, become trapped in the situation whereby they'd like to take on some work (for the self-esteem type reasons above) but can't afford to do so without jeopardising their (meagre) benefits. It seems to me that if one were serious about improving the lot of the chronic or gradually-recovering ill (as opposed to cynically appealing to the 'fucking spongers' demographic), one would offer employers incentives to be more creative and flexible with regard to part-time or job-share work, so it doesn't become an either/or job-or-benefits situation.

On a more selfish note, a good deal of my time is already tied up with crappy Government paperwork, explaining why this or that patient is too ill to be chucked bodily back into the job market. I anticipate even greater pressure on psychiatrists, from all sides, to justify such decisions.
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:41 / 04.02.05
It seems to me that if one were serious about improving the lot of the chronic or gradually-recovering ill (as opposed to cynically appealing to the 'fucking spongers' demographic), one would offer employers incentives to be more creative and flexible with regard to part-time or job-share work, so it doesn't become an either/or job-or-benefits situation.

Absolutely. I don't oppose helping people get jobs if they feel able and willing to do so, it's the element of
coercion and harrassment that bothers me. This reform also sounds like it might be undermining a doctor's judgement on who is well enough to work or not, am I right Ganesh?

I anticipate even greater pressure on psychiatrists, from all sides, to justify such decisions.

For sure. You have my sympathies.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:30 / 06.02.05
Pretty much "What they said" (Nobody's Girl and Ganesh). Many years ago now I was on sick benefit for clinical depression, a condition which I believe was exacerbated by unemployment. Although I already had problems with depression, fighting my way through the jungle of rules, regulations and downright dirty tricks ("losing" my sign-on card so my Giro wasn't paid, schedualing meetings to discuss my progress that I wasn't told about, so my Giro wasn't paid, just plain randomly not sending me my Giro for no apparent reason etc., etc.) pushed me so far over the edge I couldn't cope.

I went on sickness benefit, only to find myself in the same situation as before ("losing" my sick ticket ect., ect.)

If Tony Blair was serious about helping people back to work, he'd do as Ganesh says here: "offer employers incentives to be more creative and flexible with regard to part-time or job-share work, so it doesn't become an either/or job-or-benefits situation." I would have jumped at the chance of part-time or flexible employment. I used to wish that my doctor could prescribe me a few hours of paid work a week, instead of pills.

But no, let's just introduce another few inches of slurry for claimants to wade through in the hopes that some of them will sink below the line and drown.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
17:14 / 06.02.05
I am as confused about this issue as the next person and I (I hate to admit it) work for the Social Security!

I too hate Tony Blair and his neo Conservative policies. We are all, so programmed to look down and blame society's ills on the 'workshy' that we forget to look UP and see that corporate greed and dodgy dealings cost the taxpayer and the economy far more than a few tens of thousands claiming benefit they are not entitled to


I do not for one minute think that benefit fraud should be excused or ignored but I only wish that the people in the higher eschelons were subject to the same exposure and repeated abuse by politicians, for tax avoidance.
Terry Wogan and his ilk ruining the Scottish eco system..........Corporte greed and the sweeping under the carpet of Enron et al, are far worse and more damaging to the economy than any odd billion fiddled by a few


Now I am not forgetting the big time benefit swindlers who have major operations on the go, the people who employ the cockle pickers in morecambe and their ilk. They are scum and deserve the full weight of the law to be thrown at them for utilising slave labour and risking lives but we cannot compare this to the woman with three kids, living alone and trying to support her family on a meagre benefit and the odd cleaning job

each case has to be judged on its merits and circumstance

Personally, a shake up and focus on the taxation system is more needed and would produce much more for the country's finances than any benefit savings. What is the fraud costing the UK economy....about three Billion a year (at most)

Yet the same Government figures put the figure of unclaimed benefit in the tens of billions per year. Again nothing I am saying is meant to convey that I agree with benefit fraud....that is a seperate and important issue but of lesser importance to the tens if not hundreds of billions that are missed from the public purse by tax evasion (both individual and corporate)


Now as for Incap Benefit

(I do not work on this benefit but have a reasonable knowledge of it's workings)


Whilst in certain circumstances, there are undoubtedly cases where bona fide claimants are forced and put put under the stress of filling in long winded forms and attending interviews, I am afraid that to date, nobody has come up with a better idea

the options (that I can think of) are that you exclude certain criteria of illness, which would result in the serial benefit claimant (with nothing truly wrong with them) stating and insisting they had THAT particular illness

You have several different rules and claiming procedures that would further complicate an already complex system

Or you do what Frank Field (MP and former Social Security Secretary) suggests, and make just one benefit, that ALL non workers must claim and the onus being on you getting back to work as soon as possible.
Personally, I do not think this is a bad idea but the overhaul and implentation might be something altogether different and whilst the long term aim might be worthwhile, I believe the stress to claimant, DWP staff and the upsurge in appeals and hidden costs might make this change unworkable and undesirable to the Government


Incap is flawed for a number of reasons, most notably that


a: there are a significant minority of benefit claimaints, who are capable of doing some kind of work but are financially or by their ingrained beliefs and expectations unable or unwilling to seek employment (sadly the financial argument and low wages offered by many jobs keeps these people in a benefit trap......the latter are just sadly, workshy shits )


b: Doctors are stressed and feel threatened, issue sick notes willy nilly and hence contribute to the problem


So in summary, yes I agree Blair and his ilk are evil bastards

But if he does not even make the right noises to address this problem, then we are faced with a Howard Governemnt ....the same party that imposed this flawed system in the first place!

(though Incap from a Governemental and economic point of view, is better than the previous Invalidity Benefit, where you were entitled to benefit just for not being able to do your previous job or trade)


Shit I have confused msyelf here but I stand by the statement 100% that tax avoidance (particualarly in the higher earning category) costs the UK purse more than benefit fraud but I suppose Bernie Eccleston and the others wouldn't fund a party who brought that to light
 
 
Peach Pie
12:20 / 08.02.05


i was discussing with my friend a mutual friend of ours who had recently come back to work having been signed off with depression. my friend thought that her return to work would be forbidden without an explicit 'ok' from her GP/specialist.

I don't know whether that's the case or not. Assuming it is, does this new legislation mean that the benefits office and not the doctor will have the final say?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
15:17 / 08.02.05
NOT GOSPEL....this is all just my opinion


(but I will check and get back to you)

but by virtue that the DWP employ a company who assign doctors, who conduct medicals and said same doctors are trained to know the criteria that constitute a person being 'fit for work', then presumably, if the DWP appointed Doctor decides you are fit, that will suffice.....and your GP does not need to be consulted


If your friend decides on her own, without medical backing that she is fit to work, I would say that even (and THIS IS JUST A GUESS, NOT MY 'OFFICIAL OPINION) that would be okay but she may forego any rights or insurance cover. If she had been off for example with a bad back and hurt herself in work duties....she would have no come back or cover once the matter had been investigated

Again, I do not know and I will get back to you in the next few days, when I talk to friends in the IB section
 
 
Peach Pie
12:45 / 09.02.05
Interesting, Joe.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
15:32 / 09.02.05
Thinking more about this matter, I would say that the DWP doctor can overrule the GP but it would be a brave doctor who took on a Specialist/Consultant. Not saying it couldn't and doesn't happen but the appointed Doctor would be privvy to supportive reports one would presume and usually Consultant reports do carry sufficient weight assuming the actual criteria of the benefit are addressed


ie you maybe found fit for work by the DWP but then you do have appeals procedures and the Independant Tribunal Service to complain/Appeal to if you are dissatisfied with the outcome. Presumably if a Consultant was so supportive and your medical evidence was strong enough, the Appeals people would overturn the DWP decision


Again just my opinion. I have been too busy to call my mate over at IB today but when I next see him, I will be better informed


This is all my opinion and not in anyway shape or form based on experience (I don't work on an IB section) or official literature but I think I am right here
 
 
Joetheneophyte
17:41 / 20.02.05
sorry I haven't been back about this to confirm or deny any of the questions. I literally was so busy last week that I didn't have a chance

I will definately answer some of the points raised on this thread in the next few days, I will make it my business to collar one of the IB doctors and ask him some questions regarding how it all works
 
  
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