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Chaos Magician Bashing is the new Wicca Bashing

 
 
Stephen
12:51 / 16.08.01
Now that we've (hopefully) got all the aggression out of our systems relating to this subject, I thought I'd start a new thread to discuss some of the issues raised.

The first question is: why does exclusionist behavior come about amongst magical practitioners? Why do people bash Wiccans? Why do Chaos Magicians often position themselves in the elitist camp?

I think it all comes down to the magickal path as a fashion choice. Magick certainly has it's trends and fashions, and over the last 10 years, if you wanted to be a part of the cutting edge futurist occult scene you would probably gravitate towards CM, as it's the new and exciting thing.

This has been the case for quite some time now and I do think it's high time for some constructive backlash. Not because I'm trying to tout anything I'm doing as 'the way forward' (TM) but because I think it's healthy to pick apart the paradigms we're working under from time to time and identify potential flaws and pitfalls.

Leading out from this would be the question of whether or not we think CM will come to be replaced by something else as the 'hot' new paradigm/path to get into. I personally think it will. Just as Al Crowley was pushing the barriers in his day and hadn't anticipated Chaos Magick coming along and making Thelema seem old fashioned, I think Chaos Magick will eventually come to seem dated and very much a product of it's time, to the generations of magicians who follow us.

Which is why I think it's interesting to speculate about what new forms might evolve from the current magickal climate we find ourselves operating in. Where can you go after Chaos Magick? For awhile I speculated that the next permutation might involve a heavier dose of science perhaps becoming a kind of techno magick, working at the quantum level, incorporating specialised jargon from the world of physics, enchanting occult objects with dark matter, and so on. I played around with this for a bit and eventually came to the conclusion that I was really just using a different, more scientific, terminology to describe basic processes that the magician/shaman has been doing for centuries, albeit using different terminology. The techno-magician who penetrates the 10 dimensional super string to charge his occult apparatus with shadow matter, isn't really doing anything different from the shaman who travels into spirit to get his power object. All that's changed is the language.

Whilst I think magic and quantum science still have a lot to offer each other, I'm not convinced that the next permutation of magick's evolution will be so simple as an adoption of a new terminology.

But does magick actually evolve? Is the next question this all raises. I'm not so sure it does. If we look at the various trends in magick that emerged in the last century during the 'occult revival' , Thelema, Wicca, Chaos Magick, to name a few. The main difference is in the attitude of the practitioner. In many ways Thelema is a product of Modernism, with it's 'Crowned and Conquering Child' and 'war engines' being akin to the energy and dynamism of the industrialised early part of this century. Similarly Wicca can be seen as a reaction against this same modernism, an attempt to return to more traditional and earthy values. You could perhaps attribute its increasing popularity throughout the 20th century to mass feelings of alienation and a fear of the new.

I think Chaos Magick is as much a product of the post-modern period as Thelema is of Modernism, and it's also facing the same dilemma that post-modern art and literature seem to be grappling with. Namely, what comes after? Where can we go from here? Can we go any further?

I think ultimately, we must.

So I've started this thread to see what other peoples thoughts are on this, see what public opinion is. I've been grappling with this for a couple of years really. I have the sort of mind that loves new things and always wants to speculate as to where we can take things next.

One hypothesis I've arrived at is that if magick itself doesn't change or evolve, and the only real difference between paths and traditions are purely cultural, then how valid are these individual paths that we follow. To what extent are they products of a kind of occult genre classification?

At this moment in time, we're all in a unique and unprecedented situation as magicians due to the ease at which we can gather information and communicate with others through using the web and e-mail. No other generation has had it quite so easy. Previously guarded occult secrets are a click away, you can compare notes with Haitian Mambo's, read the secret documents of the A,',A,', , or even engage in a bitchy slanging match with (probably perfectly lovely) fellow magicians from around the world, all from the safety and comfort of your desktop.

An analogy I'd like to draw with this is that of the indigenous shaman who has a specific way of working that he's been taught by his mentor. The path he walks has been passed down to him over countless generations of his tribe. They live in a secluded part of a desert and have never had much contact with other tribes beyond a few skirmishes. One year, for some reason or other, the shaman goes on a big quest and comes to befriend a shaman from another village. This shaman has a totally different way of working but they both basically recognise they're doing the same kind of thing, so they compare notes, they teach each other different tricks and share methods of working. Because of their meeting, both shamanic systems are enriched. The 2 shamen will pass down what they've learnt to their descendents and both traditions grow and evolve.

Another parallel can be drawn with what we've come to know as 'the western mystery tradition' which far from being a pure tradition is a synthesis of Hebrew, Greek, Egyptian and other radically different elements that have been brought together into a cohesive whole.

It seems like it's a natural thing for a magician to synthesise new ideas s/he's exposed to and use them to enrich his or her method of working/world view. So what happens when virtually ALL the heretofore concealed occult secrets are just a mouse click away? For a start it creates the 'Shopping Trolley of Belief' effect, which isn't neccesarily always a good thing, (as I touched on in that other thread) as it can easily lead to a very superficial almost fly-by-night flirtation with various occult traditions without ever really exploring the mysteries of that culture.

But I think ultimately, this synthesis of global traditions might need to be made, and the eclecticism of Chaos Magic may only be the beginning of this process that leads towards a complete understanding of the magical technology of the human race. I don't know. You can draw a few parallels with the idea Grant M has been touting of everyone on the planet being a single entity that is becoming self aware. Zen Fascism as the enlightened hive mind, and so on. Taking a holistic look at the various magickal systems that have been developed on this planet, not getting caught up in paths and traditions, recognising common elements and synthesising differences. Maybe. Food for thought anyway.
 
 
Stephen
12:58 / 16.08.01
Oh and did I mention I think you're all a bunch of twats?
 
 
Stephen
12:59 / 16.08.01
Only kidding
 
 
YNH
13:26 / 16.08.01
Heck, GDr, Your second to last para might be exactly where we're headed next. Take what Jameson said about Late Capitalism, throw in the 70-80-s findings of religion sociologists (particularly in the US) re: individual belief systems - eg. "spirituality" and stuff like Sheila-sim; and then consider that one can learn about magic in a few hours (prolly compiling links from several different traditions). You get a perfectly sensible Cosumer Magician trying to outfit hir mental space with the sexiest or most comfy design.

The interaction with Wiccans (too new-agey), Chaos Magicians (no taste), or Thelemetics (stuffy old Quakers) has direct parallells to home decoration. I might have a taste for Quaker furniture; I might do rituals; and I might have Wiccan friends, but my magical life will be neatly arranged and I'll be looking for the next quaint addition.

It may be flirtation. It may be very trendy. I mean, some folk already think [system x] is trendy, but what about when Madonna adopts it? Or Sprite does a commercial parodying it for the "obey yr thirst" campaign? And it may work to the extent that light involvement works.

Ahem, I hate it when y'all draw me in like this...

Seems like you're approachng a structuralist magic - working on a basic vocabulary common to all systems, Dr. Chomsky. Are there enough of us to work that out here?

I think the immediate jump to ALLNOW misses at least this step. Seriously, people have been proposing that in SF for a hundred years. Maybe we're missing the our own culture 'cause we think the Other is more interesting. What are the mysteries of postmodern (no hyphen, in English or Spanish, stop that) consumer capitalism?

Great thoughts, yo.

[ 16-08-2001: Message edited by: [YNH] ]
 
 
grant
14:32 / 16.08.01
quote:Originally posted by [YNH]:
What are the mysteries of postmodern (no hyphen, in English or Spanish, stop that) consumer capitalism?


The mysteries of desire, I suppose.
The mystery of the brand as well.
 
 
YNH
14:45 / 16.08.01
I think the brand has a direct analogy to the sigil, perhaps with more, er, staying power; or one the individual or group continually charges.

Just looking at the crap in front of me makes me wonder how one collapses the servitor and the self into an automatic simulacrum, or how one harnesses artificiality and surface gloss. Why not magical video games?
 
 
Mordant Carnival
16:46 / 16.08.01
Getting back to elitist tendencies (and no, G. Dr., CMs do NOT have a monopoly on this, but I'm not going to go there at present. "We are finer creatures than this, and all eternity is our playground", as the Prophet Hicks has it.)

I think it's partly down to sheer psychological shock, the "Fuck me sideways, this shit is REAL!" moment. The new mage is suddenly aware of the huge potential that they posess as a human being, and temporarily blows a fuse. There's sometimes a flakey period where a person might look down on others who aren't as "enlightened". There they go, dozy little muggles that they are, unaware of the mighty magickian who walks amongst them like a (insert carnivore here) amongst the mindless (insert domesticated animals here)-like herd of humanity, etc, etc, blah blah blah. The only good thing about this mindset is its ultimate lack of sustainability.

The other thing that can happen is that having gone thru the "Fuck me sideways, this shit is REAL!" moment is to decide that yours must be the only shit that is real. After all, if you do the Amazing Carrot Dance of Warglebutt the Awesome and the next day your promtion comes through, doesn't that mean that Warglebutt the Awesome is real, and that his way is the Only True Way? All those other magickians are therefore either making it up, or are into (dah dah DAHHH!) Black Magick!
Again, the only good thing here is that it eventually wears off.

And then we come to the Old Skool (eg: wiccans, thelemites, the drum-and-beard variety of shamen) vs New Skool (eg: CMs, the drum'n'bass variety of shamen).

The argument goes something like this:

New Skool: "We are the future of magick! Behold our quantum causality engineering and the fact that we can invoke all your old gods, and Cthulhu, and Bart Simpson and still get a result. Yippee!"

Old Skool: "Ah, but we have the might of thousands of years of tradition behind us. And our gods are real, and yours aren't. And we've got good robes, nyahh."

New Skool: "Bunch of credulous hippies. And we've got better robes!"

Old Skool: "Upstart dillettents!"

New Skool: "Hidebound elitists!"

Old Skool: "Lazy delinquent wankers!"

All: "BUNDLE!"

And so on and so forth. Both veiwpoints are as elitest as hell, of course, and fortunately only a minority of people from any given background hold them. I hope.

Evolution of magick? Hard to know. My cynicsm and pessimistic veiwpoint make me a lousy futurologist. I devoutly hope that as the novelty wears off CM there'll be a bit more dialogue between exponants of various paths, which may eventually give rise to new ways of working and a more complete understanding.

Also I believe that we could all learn a lot if we stopped science-bashing for five minutes together and paid a bit more attention to current scientific developments. The Barbelith krew seem a lot more clued-up and less technophobic than your average mage but there's still a prickly vibe towards the scientific community. (I put this down in a large part to the frankly shite state of science reporting in the media today, but that's another rant for another day.)
 
 
Ria
17:20 / 16.08.01
quote:[QB}Why do people bash Wiccans?


to point out people "worse off" (more kooky say) than yourself. when yourself means person who does something consensus reality defines as kooky anyway.

specifically to assert to your own 'masculinity' and 'realism' against the feminine and 'playful' for those who it matters to.

and other reasons but to go into them might go from explaining bashing to engaging in bashing.

[ 16-08-2001: Message edited by: Kriztalyne ]
 
 
Kobol Strom
17:55 / 16.08.01
quote: But does magick actually evolve? Is the next question this all raises. I'm not so sure it does.
I think it might be useful when we talk about how magic is evolving,to look at what aspects of magick or magickal experience have,over a course of time,stayed the same.
I'm thinking of illumination I guess,which I reckon may be a candidate.But even that experience can be categorized and labelled and its often experiential and based on personal perceptions etc etc....I think we need to deprogram at the base node.What I mean by this is,to see-create Punk Magick by stripping out all the techniques we like,dumping the rest,making up new ones that are incomprehensible to any establishment,wearing what the fuck we like,and dealing with whatever the fuck we want.Sigils are the electric guitar,spirits are the bass,shamanism is on drums,and chaos is on,....vocals!
 
 
Ierne
18:36 / 16.08.01
why does exclusionist behavior come about amongst magical practitioners?

Insecurity, immaturity and lack of social skills are often major culprits. Becoming a magickian can help one attain self-confidence. But this takes time and a willingness to do the work.

It's sad that many people who become interested in Magick do so initially as an escape from the psychological abuses of consensus reality. These abuses lead to bitterness and feelings of powerlessness; Magick is often seen as a panacea for these painful sensations.

At some point the realization sets in that Magick is actually hard fucking work, and it doesn't solve every problem. Those nasty feelings crop up again and need to be directed somewhere.

At this point some folks decide to drop magick and do something else. Of those that stay, a certain percentage will try to assuage themselves and bolster their shaky self-esteem by assuming their particular path as superior to other branches of magick. It's all very adolescent, and all the talk, bluster and bullshit involved is easier than actually working magick.

The awareness that all paths lead to the same place, and as long as you're doing your bit it really doesn't matter what other people are doing or how they do it, is a sure sign of magickal maturity.
 
 
Kobol Strom
19:07 / 16.08.01
and punk.


I know for a fact I have my own path,and I'm lucky to have been put on that path by accident.I started doing magick as a result of practising magic in dreams.It took me a good couple of years to fly,and change the shapes of environments,and steadily I would build up my abilities until I could deal with moving telekinetically,in the dream,really large objects like cranes and bridges by willpower.I got help from dream buddies,or specifically,other people in my dreams.After my first accidental trance state induced by a narcoleptic fit,I was left pretty devastated by what I hallucinated, but thankfully,I was in my first year at Art School-so I channelled it into paintings and a short film:I staged my abduction hallucination,built the sets and costumes,and got my friends to film the alien abduction(don't laugh).One part of me believed it had actually happened,and the dreams were a way of my inner mind slowly revealing the truth to me.The idea of putting myself on the operating table was to somehow exorcise the memory of the experience.During hypnagogic trance,where I experienced nightmare visions at least once a week before,now were replaced by a different style of visitation,one in which I could partially control events,and in which magickal and life instruction from another plane of reality seemed to become involved.If it is my mind speaking to me,then that is an amazing thing,no matter what.But my relationship with whatever,is a deepening,evolving one and mirrors my waking explorations of different theories about magickal experience to somehow explain,where and why this relationship to the self can yield such incredible results,and I am staggered by the patience and love involved in this teaching and experience,(despite my dualistic understanding of the self/other and which is which).I am also amazed at how childlike and chaotic I become in the face of real control.It takes time to be magickally mature,and I know,due to the nature of the beast,that there always seems to be another stage,which makes kids of us all.I hope this all makes sense.

[ 16-08-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]
 
 
6opow
07:10 / 17.08.01
quote:Originally posted by kobol strom:
...that there always seems to be another stage,which makes kids of us all.


Hmm...to infinity Kobol?

And perhaps it is to infinity and what we experience as a dynamic unfolding or declenching is only the static of eternity dissected for your listening pleasure. As in the fractal design where a certain style or path captures this little box or that, and is not the whole, but is the whole only doesn't realize it. THER IS NO EVOLUTION--Darwin is dead, but yet he lives as we all do in the immortality of all possible static: worlds that are and shall always be in time that never was. Forget the worldline that you trace out Relative to your relatives (along with friends, neighbours, co-workers and those who are none of the a-four-mentioned), and think of the universepoint that is reflected in Vishnu's blinking eye. Of course in your eye I see an infinity of reflection of Vishnu's eye and it all come back around via Mom's fresh baked apple pi (Boy, I need a drink...) to an unchanging invariant that resides in the core of all the transient things. But yet, these are defined in terms of one and other and without one there is only none, but if there is none then there is two, ya' dig (your own grave, but never do you lie in it, but only lie to the mirror)?

And thus: there is and there is not. The magickal path that we tread is magick because there is no path: there was never a first step, and so how can there ever be a last?
 
 
grant
13:30 / 17.08.01
quote:Originally posted by [YNH]:
I think the brand has a direct analogy to the sigil, perhaps with more, er, staying power; or one the individual or group continually charges.


I think it's more of a thoughtform; an astral form of a corporation. A Servitor of Longing and Belonging. (Buy Nike! Join the Nike tribe!)


quote:
Just looking at the crap in front of me makes me wonder how one collapses the servitor and the self into an automatic simulacrum, or how one harnesses artificiality and surface gloss. Why not magical video games?



I was watching Joe Campbell on the public tv last night, and he's really down on the whole modern "artificial" life, which tends to divorce people from natural states of wonder.
I'm wondering about that a lot right now. There's something about things just happening (like a tree growing, or wind blowing a plastic bag) that's very different from things created from an intention (like billboards or buildings). It seems like it takes twice as much "interpretive force" to yank something out of its original context and into one meaningful to you than it would for something that isn't really coded with its own meaning to begin with.

I have to think it over.
 
 
Kobol Strom
15:59 / 17.08.01
[the godog] And thus: there is and there is not. The magickal path that we tread is magick because there is no path: there was never a first step, and so how can there ever be a last?
[/the godog]


When ever I read your posts now,I think I can hear the voice of James Earl Jones.You select an excellent fantasy football team of characters and notions,and I can't argue with you on any point whatsoever.
...Except one.At this point,as an exploratory/mutational act,I am going to have to disagree ,for now,and in disagreeing about the existence of The Infinite,I mutate,as you have already predicted,and can feel a change in my trance state,much like a car might feel that its being given an over-haul if the car was 'christine! Its just another path,and no big deal.But its interesting to look at the path,before you set off down it,like a football Manager looking at the trophy before the start of the season.
Its painful for me to break out of this comfortable mode(as all world views are like beds of needles),but then again,it might be healthy.But when I come back from this world view of NO INFINITY ,I'll let you know what I manage to find,and you can let me know if I've disappeared up my own arse and have become blinded by the sun shining out.
 
 
Kobol Strom
15:55 / 18.08.01
And the speed of light is slowing down. Damn,if ever there was a candidate for a universal constant,that was it.Can I just say:It wasn't me!
 
 
6opow
22:18 / 18.08.01
*Disclaimer* While this post may seem at first to be a case of that dreaded thread rot, please be patient as, by the end, I hope to bring it back to addressing the o'G PhD.'s topic...

quote:Originally posted by Kobol Strom:
When ever I read your posts now,I think I can hear the voice of James Earl Jones.You select an excellent fantasy football team of characters and notions...


J.E. Jones, eh!?! Do you mean sorta' like any of these? I didn't realize my posts invoked (or perhaps 'evoked' is better here wrt "which side are you on?") such an "authoritative" voice...really, I find this kinda' "impressiv".

While I've tried to do my best in scouting key players to fill out the team, I am never satisfied until these bastards give me 110%! I agree that some of them stand as a brick wall, or even as a revolving door: it is no wonder that they appear to be unassailable, or alternatively, inexpressibly equivocal. Indeed, this dream team is both fantastic and phantasmagoric--indubitable or entirely delusional, one is homomorphic to the other. After all, the grundsteinlego ("corner-stone Lego"--thanks E. Neubauten) of the team's philosophy is that A & ~A is the Truth (see: "nothing is true, everything is possible").

I mean sure we all have our I's on the prize, but we typically see the ding-an-sich ("thing-in-itself"--thanks I. Kant) shining as reflected light. It is this glow that illuminates our steps, and we might make it all the way this season.

In other words, the constant that we strive to c can not be the invariant because we see it.

There is no infinity here, but only a lonely One, and so, s/he talks to hirself incessantly. From our perspective, "[a]ll that's changed is the language," but s/he says it all at once--thee "om."

We hear this voice, but not clearly (as to do so would be to hear nothing at all), and in this garbled transmission (most of which is Greek to those who don't speak Greek, and perhaps Chinese to those who do...) we experience the mysterium tremendum/fascination ("terrible and fascinating mystery" thanks R. Otto) which encourages us to carry on, but also to duck and cover. The latter is us, "...disappear[ing] up [our] own arse[s]," and the former is us, "...blinded by the sun shining out": Joderowsky portrays this in "The Holy Mountain" in the scene where the protagonist's feces is alchemically transformed into gold. And all of this is the same as this, and IMHO, is the past, present, and future of magick.

“Grundsteinlego...leuge, leuge, leuge!”

[ 19-08-2001: Message edited by: the godog ]

PS I now realize that my first post appears to be directed at Kobol, but it is actually my (wandering) thoughts regarding the Doc's topic and the posts up to that point. The "you" of my post is simply the second person that sneaks in when I write stream of consciousness ('cause I'm having a conversation with myself, right?--I am as much the "you" as you are the "I"). Usually I use the inclusive "we."

I apologize to you, Kobol, for any misunderstanding: the first line of that post was only a friendly "hello" poke in the ribs (reference to the discussion we were having in "Like a muppet...") and then served as a springboard into the topic at hand. And thanks for the opportunity to restate my thoughts about the evolution of magick in an equally coherent manner!


[ 19-08-2001: Message edited by: the godog ]
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
06:05 / 19.08.01
Ah fuck, you guys woke me up from my post-Johnson slumber yet again. So here's my thoughts on this one now that I'm out of bed.

1) No such thing as future of magic; only refinements of techniques. I'm sure there's a post-Chaos gloss coming down the line, but I don't think we should worry about it. The secrets are all there in plain sight, use them fer chrissakes and stop arguing terminology.

2) That said, here's my rant against Chaos terminology: coming from a structuralist point of view, Chaos purported to break down the occult to its core mechanics. Ehhn, wrong, those kids from Leeds got it right in some places, but beyond the sigil technique and maybe the alphabet of desire, they missed the boat altogether. As their own personal system, it's great and is a very novel approach to things, but it--and even Crowley's and Spare's stuff--ain't Jack Smack when it comes to "bringing truth to light." They were great on style, but the real substance was completely lacking. If you want to see what I mean, I recommend everybody to track down and read a book called "The Kybalion," purportedly written by "Three Initiates" in 1913, which is a lucid point-by-point breakdown of Hermetic philosophy. I would like to see a Chaos-type system delineating a clear and powerful method for using the Hermetic axioms instead of whatever Thelemic/Pagan/Postmodern mish-mash Chaos itself operates off of.

3) As far as "magic-for-the-masses" goes, I would like to see magic steering away from spells and "spiritual enlightenment" and its previous focus on the individual practitioner, and become A) more of a group/social force and B) an everyday tool. I want a magical way to approach everyday situations--i.e., magic for walking down the street, telephone calls, hanging out with friends, going to movies... magic has to permeate everything instead of being confined to the ritual space. The one book I've seen which kind of goes in this direction is (English Barbelithers may know this--I snagged a copy when I was in London, it's not out in the US) "Barefoot Doctor's Guide for the Urban Warrior" which is trite and ravey-new-agey but has some excellent ideas and approaches in it.

And so on...
 
 
Mordant Carnival
12:20 / 19.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Ye Olde Antlerhead:
I would like to see magic steering away from spells and "spiritual enlightenment" and its previous focus on the individual practitioner, and become A) more of a group/social force and B) an everyday tool. I want a magical way to approach everyday situations--i.e., magic for walking down the street, telephone calls, hanging out with friends, going to movies... magic has to permeate everything instead of being confined to the ritual space.


I'm inclined to agree. I use magick for personal development a lot of the time, for more energy, more motivation, whatever. I also use it in a variety of everyday situations; speeding up a dragging afternoon at work, for example.

How about the idea of magick as "more of a group/social force"? How would that work?
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
12:31 / 19.08.01
i'd say its my turn to speek with my cheeks firmly lodged between my cheeks...

all magic, when stripped to the core, is intent. if you want to move a small object, there are a thousand different ways to do this, whether you dangle yourself by the nipples from the roof, eat cabbage or meditate...all would work if you beleived enough, if you truly intended.

on the astral planes, thought constitutes matter, we are on a rather low plane right now so it takes more intent for thought to manifest itself, but it can...and that would be magic.

my point- All magic works, no matter what you beleive, or however shiny your robes are. all gods are really up there cos peoples beleif creates them.

as for the future of magic... i reckon within the next 25 years machines will be develpoed to induce the states of mind that allow us to do stuff...everyone to do stuff, not just those who practice endlessly.


 
 
YNH
14:52 / 19.08.01
The funny thing, though, is that the machines already exist. We just don't have access to them. They've been around for 15-30 years depending on what you wanna do. Some of the coolest scifi circa 1990 had some of this as a backdrop. Oh well.
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
15:47 / 20.08.01
oooooo

yup, there is stuff out there (but it usually costs a bomb) one thing that ive seen that looks pretty groovy is the dream mask, it detects when your in REM, and does flashy stuff that induces luscid dreaming...ive spoken to someone who uses one to help her astraly project, cos to induce an OBE, your brain wave patterrns usually have to be the same as they are during REM.
[YNH], have you got any links to pages about such machines?
 
 
ephemerat
12:55 / 24.08.01
Some great stuff here.

I am terribly sorry, but I have to say how much I enjoyed the chaos/shaman bitch fight over in the lifestyle thread. So much so that I now desperately want a 'Chaos Magician (TM)' t-shirt with the caption:

'TOO SHALLOW FOR SHAMANISM'

[ 24-08-2001: Message edited by: ephemerat ]
 
 
Saint Keggers
03:21 / 25.08.01
Ephemerat wrote: quote:I now desperately want a 'Chaos Magician (TM)' t-shirt with the caption:

'TOO SHALLOW FOR SHAMANISM'



ROTFLMAO!!!! Thats fucking hillarious...
I'll design one up for ya if you want.
(and they said my art skills would never come in handy!!)
 
 
Mordant Carnival
13:07 / 25.08.01
Put me down for a t-shirt too!
 
 
Saint Keggers
01:50 / 26.08.01
Um..how do put an image here if its not at a url but rather on my hard drive?
 
  
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