BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Temple >

Necromancy

  
 
Unconditional Love
11:39 / 28.01.05
ars falcis i have been reading through this site and very much enjoy it, especially the tone of it.

does anybody have any other links or could reference books within a similar area of intrest?
 
 
Chiropteran
12:41 / 28.01.05
I haven't read it myself, but Communing with the Spirits, by Martin Coleman, has come highly recommended. It's currently out of print, but the author has announced that it will be reprinted soon (within the year).

The books of Leilah Wendell might also be worth looking into - her tone is a little starry-eyed, even Anne-Rice-writing-about-Lestat-ish, but some of the content is worth reading (and offers an alternative to the cold, calculating Uber-magician type of necromancer suggested by Ars Falcis).

=PM
 
 
Katherine
18:17 / 20.11.05
*bump* in the spirit of *bump*

Just found this site and wondered if anyone had anything expections with necromancy or any pointers?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
20:07 / 20.11.05
I've had weird experiences with spirits of the deceased, but nothing I'd call necromancy.

you might want to read "The Serpent and the Rainbow," by Wade Davis. He's an ethnobotanist who was commissioned to go to Haiti and determine what plants/animals are used in preparing a zombie potion.

The book is the documentation of his trip and his findings.

fortunately, he writes beautifully, and is open-eyed to the world around him.

although, I don't know if the aspects of Voodou that he explores are Necromancy, per se, but they are related.

at least I think so.

ta
tenix
 
 
Unconditional Love
02:36 / 21.11.05
Having looked in this area, i found ancestor veneration to be the most workable aspect for me, particularly something practical like creating a family tree and acknowledging your own roots.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:10 / 21.11.05
I had a moment, a coupla years back, with Salvia divinorum (sp?), a freshly inked pair of sygils (for invisibility and inaudibility), music, and low lights, in my otherwise empty parental home.

The spirit of my then recently departed Grandmother sat in a chair, quietly taking it in (as she was wont to do).

It was certainly my most vivid encounter with the spirits of the dead, and the sygils turned out to be strongly empowered.

Family trees are a brilliant idea...

ta
tenix
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:11 / 22.11.05
I would make a distinction myself between ancestor veneration and necromancy. Ancestor work is about strengthening the links between you and the greater chain of being that you have descended from, physically, genetically, even mentally. Your ancestors are the spirits that are closest to you and have an interest in you and your development. It's perfectly natural to venerate your ancestors, to think about your family tree in magical terms, to incorporate all that has gone before into the contemporary moment.

Necromancy, on the other hand, is generally a term for working with the non-ancestral dead. It's boneyard sorcery. Trapping spirits in jars. Using bits of dead people for various nefarious magical purposes. It's generally a bit ethically dodgy, but extremely potent magic. The juicier and nastier the spirit, the more powerful the results. It's high risk business and I probably wouldn't advise dipping your toe in those waters unless you know exactly what you're doing or are under instruction from someone experienced with this sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near it on the fly myself.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:33 / 22.11.05
Hmmm... Haven't read the whole site thoroughly. The red-and-black colour scheme and titles such as "Vampiric Necromancy" and "Undead Servants" don't really inspire me to do so. (I mean, if they were advertising a gig I might be interested, but that's just me.)

I did skim through the fundamental chapter of the "spellbook." It's not exactly earth-shattering stuff, though I don't see anything immediately wrong with the material presented that isn't wrong with dozens of other such sites. From what I have read, it looks like the usual agglomeration of sketchily understood disciplines and namecheckery re-hashed and presented in a particular wrapping--in this instance, Goth drag. A white-lighter could offer similar stuff and call it fairy magic or whatever. F'rinstance: 'Lichform Sensitivity -- Can you affect your own health or sense changes in your own health status without relying on physical signs? Are you "in touch" with the ethereal movements around you?' sounds like standard-issue energy work bumph, just with the word lich in the name instead of crystal or light or colour. Call it High Faerie Sensitivity, change the page background to lilac, and away you go.
 
 
Katherine
14:41 / 22.11.05
Well I have enjoyed looking at the site and it's spawned a couple of weird google searches. But yep quite a few people don't rate it too much at all, so where would you think the best place to look for information is?

I have been flipping though the links and reading recommmended on the site in between other stuff but what would you reckon is a good place to start with necromancy?

I also agree about the ancestor worship part not really being necromancy as such.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:56 / 22.11.05
archraven, you could take a look at Communing With the Spirits, by Martin Coleman. I haven't read it myself, yet, but it was highly recommended to me as the "essential" starting place for (non-ancestor-specific) spirit work. (I think some sites still list it as Out Of Print, but it was reprinted in early 2005.)
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:58 / 22.11.05
best place to learn necromancy?

in a graveyard. make sure to protect/guard yourself from suggestion and influence, go to a cemetery, necropolis, or notorious site of historical bloodshed, and listen to the voices.

discovered a lot while staying at a friend's place, which was once a hotel, under which are buried the Irish "slaves" who died digging a Canal for the military of the day.

the city had just announced a monument to acknowledge the Irish labourers who died. With that, surprisingly, the spirits grew restless. With joy or release I was unable to acertain, but things felt hopping around the place.

then again, maybe it's just me.

outside of coroners, emergency staff, morticians and students of these disciplines, most of us don't get direct contact with the dead.

which may help us to deal with our cultural terror of it.

I'm curious how your exploration goes. do tell.

ta
tenix
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:32 / 22.11.05
Ancestor veneration is not necromancy at all, you are entirely right. I guess what i am saying is that imo its a more preferable practice to necromancy.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:53 / 22.11.05
Nobody seems to be giving particularly clear motivation as to why they want to practice necromancy. It's generally quite an ethically shaky practice, involving - as it does - the coercion of spirits of the dead to do your bidding, generally for material ends. Depending on how you go about it, necromancy can amount to the abuse and enslavement of other people's ancestors. Why exactly are you interested in that? What do you intend to do with the dead? What business do you have in the cemetery? What is the motivation for investigating these practices?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:05 / 22.11.05
What, in a nutshell, the fuck?
 
 
Chiropteran
17:19 / 22.11.05
Depending on how you go about it, necromancy can amount to the abuse and enslavement of other people's ancestors.

Well, yeah. There is also a lot of graveyard work that doesn't amount to that. A lot of hoodoos (for instance) use divination to find spirits who are willing to do certain kinds of work, and pay them for their help. As to why, you point out that it can be exceptionally powerful work. In addition, some workers find that spirit work is just where their personal talents lie - they might not be able to tie a mojo for nothing, but they can move mountains with spirits and candles.

Implicit in this type of work is the belief that some spirits are willing - even eager - to stay involved with the world after death, and not everyone has their own descendents to watch out for (nor does everyone feed their own ancestors, so a little respectful attention and a libation can go a long way with a neglected spirit). In recent discussion with other workers, respect, careful selection (who to ask for what), and proper payment are the three big recurring points.

Hoodoo is a wide area, of course, and I'm sure there are plenty of practioners who go the "abuse and enslave" route, but workers I've known are more transactional (offer rum and coins for work) than binding/authoritarian. You could maybe say, broadly, that hoodoo falls roughly between (African) ancestor veneration and (European) necromancy, in terms of the way the dead are approached and worked with.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:35 / 22.11.05
when i started this thread i was still clinging to a scary little boy persona, its kinda embarassing to look back on, i blame you archraven,nah i blame me,imagine all the other embarassing posts ive made trying to be jet black, oh well, life moves on.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:48 / 22.11.05
Depending on how you go about it, necromancy can amount to the abuse and enslavement of other people's ancestors.--GL

Well, yeah. There is also a lot of graveyard work that doesn't amount to that.--Lepidopteran

Hmmm. The specific site linked at the top of the thread seems to deal with the former flavour rather than the latter. Like I said before, have not read site properly ect ect, but... well, "Vampiric Necromancy" and "Undead Servants." Not "Sitting the local restless spirits down for a nice cup of tea and maybe a bit of a chat if they're feeling lonely."

I personally take an academic interest in the idea of working with the non-ancestral dead. I already honour a few such as part of my devotional work, but there's a big difference between bunging a bit of incense Usui Sensei's way now and again as a token of respect, and really getting involved with a spirit from outside my family in a serious way.

However, I am aware that (at least in theory) I may end up working with non-ancestral spirits at a later date. I've been pranked by one such (years ago now; it was a localized haunting and I never encountered the spirit again after I left that area), and if it happened again I'd like to be able to offer a more healthy response than knicker-wetting panic. Nice cup of tea and a chat, harcore banishing, whatever was most appropriate. I'm a long way from being able to do that at the moment, but I can see a time ahead when it might be possible. I venerate my ancestors, and (very) recently began working with a couple of death-Goddesses, so it could conceivably happen. I'd need to be a lot further along than I am, though.
 
 
Katherine
04:37 / 23.11.05
Well I asked for information from people because I'm interested in the subject and because the standard defination I get from people is that it is just divination with the dead, I'm assuming get one to show up then ask it a question.

Ars Falcis says it is so much more hence I thought I would ask and try and get a better understanding of the subject.
On the subject of the website is it (IMO) the better of most of the websites based on this practice at least this person says go and research. But I'm not too keen on some of it.

The problem I find with putting morals into something is it does depend on your morals and we are all different. Yes the point about enslaving other's ancestors would /does make me pause but then there will be others out there who may think 'your point? It's not my family'.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:02 / 23.11.05
but then there will be others out there who may think 'your point? It's not my family'.

Like Fred West, for instance?

Playing devil's advocate with this really. Well aware that there are more nuances to boneyard work than enslavement and subjugation. It's an area I'm interested in looking into myself, hence I'm taking quite a hard line in grappling with the ethical ramification around the practice.

The transactional model is all well and good, but as I understand it, the more "juicy" the spirit, the more potent it can be in getting things done. In order to be really good at this sort of work, you have to be able to be able to keep the scary ones under control and show them who is boss. Which means having in your toolkit, the ability to subjugate, coerce and threaten. It's not all going to be as easy and clear cut as sitting them down with a cup of tea and asking them to do a job of work for you. Any area of spirit-based work is always going to be unpredictable to say the least, and I can see how even a relatively good intentioned hoodoo worker could edge into some extremely suspect and not particularly pleasant territory without really noticing what is on the end of their spoon, as it were.

It's easy to make blanket statements like "The dead serve the living" and "The spirits are neglected and glad of getting a feed" - I've made justifications like that myself in the past, but something about that doesn't really sit easy with me. It sounds like a justification. A second hand platitude that I'm parroting without really knowing what I'm talking about with any degree of understanding.

Personally, I don't have any problems whatsoever with "putting morals onto something" if that something is complex enough to warrant a more sophisticated view than the one forwarded by Arse Falcon or whatever it's called. However, I would imagine that the only way you can gain any real understanding of these issues is by active work in this area, and trying to formulate you own moral compass to navigate by when you're dealing with spirits. Which, at the very least, warrants a bit of thought, analysis and speculation.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:27 / 23.11.05
Another website to further muddy the waters Necromancy 101 not too impressed by this, but her essay on death figures (link at bottom of page) is better,imo.

This on the other hand seems like a must read book if necromancy is to be an area of research
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:07 / 23.11.05
We're back on ethics in magical practice turf again with this topic, aren't we? I guess at least part of the reason that not everyone has immediately engaged with the possible ethical ramifications of this kind of work is that a lot of modern magical material doesn't encourage the reader to consider spirits as "really real" (ie having an independant existance, a consciousness of their own, inner life, thoughts and desires). You're not working with separate intelligences, you're just working within the "necromancy model." This means that thorny questions of ethics and free will conveniently never get off the ground.

Of course, in spirit work it's always entirely possible that the beings you're communicating with are just figments of your imagination, but personally I don't see that as an excuse for forgetting either safety precautions or good manners.
 
 
Katherine
12:09 / 23.11.05
Playing devil's advocate with this really. Well aware that there are more nuances to boneyard work than enslavement and subjugation. It's an area I'm interested in looking into myself, hence I'm taking quite a hard line in grappling with the ethical ramification around the practice.

Devil’s advocate is fine by me, to be honest I hadn’t thought of necromancy as enslaving other’s ancestors before and I can see your point.

Also raises the question of can someone who does do ancestor worship (whether from a vodun or hoodoo background or from another practice) realise if an ancestor’s spirit is being used by someone else doing necromancy. I have no experience of ancestor worship personally so it’s an open question to those on these boards who do.

Also if you can, what would you do if you found this was happening?

It's easy to make blanket statements like "The dead serve the living" and "The spirits are neglected and glad of getting a feed" - I've made justifications like that myself in the past, but something about that doesn't really sit easy with me. It sounds like a justification. A second hand platitude that I'm parroting without really knowing what I'm talking about with any degree of understanding.

And this is why I personally feel good research is necessary to a point, I don’t know what exactly necromancy is. You have Ars Falcis and a couple of other sites saying it’s working with ‘Death’s power’ , yet other’s say it’s just divination with the dead using the meaning of the word Necromancy. So before I do anything I want to nail down what exactly I’m doing first.

Active work is probably going to be your next step after first reading and researching something first. It probably will be the actually practice which will get you better understanding and depth into the subject but I would rather doing it after reading what I can first. Of course I realise my nailed down idea of what I’m doing will quite definitely fly out the window at that point.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:25 / 23.11.05
Just a thought what if you are working with death energies and not spirits of the dead, what if for example you were working with the ambient energy of a cemetary to increase mental peace, using a chip of stone from the arch into the place, i am sure you have noticed the peace of cemetarys, a sympathetic connection to gather that peaceful state or just create that association, doesnt that have more to do with the field that a collection of dead spirits create as a network of death and living human associations than say, a disrespect of those spirits or the spirit of the place.

And if anyone is going to do this please make sure the stone has naturally fallen away and dont even contemplate head stones, fallen yew tree twigs bundled together will work just as well, and take the time to meditate in the place and really immerse yourself in the peace of the place, learn the history of it too if possible.

I hope other people have noticed the death and peace associations, and its not just me, death as a healer, a peaceful life.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:22 / 23.11.05
Middle, with respect to "working with the ambient energy of a cemetary" and non-grave-specific artifacts, I've been told that in Palo there is a distinction made between "cemetary dirt" from, say, the pathway in the cemetary, and "grave dirt" from a specific (person's) grave, and that they are used in different ways.

I know worse than nothing about Palo, so I can't be more specific, but the fact of the distinction is interesting and might make a good point of research (assuming it's not restricted knowledge, and you can find a Palero willing to tell you about it).
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:55 / 23.11.05
Uses of graveyard dust A search turned up some intresting ideas, lep.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:18 / 24.11.05
Confessions, some time ago i worked with what was identified as a carved human fibia, supposedly african in origin, this item turned up in a red cross charity shop for £5, no really.

I was working with the gede and maman brigette at the time, i used it on two occasions, once to get an annoying neighbour removed, the next day he was committed and another occasion to remove another annoying neighbour, next day he was carted off by the police. I worked with the bone in conjunction with maman brigette and it all seemed fine at the time, until things started getting really scary and panicky( i was also contemplating the idea of becoming a christian at this point, which influenced my decision to stop working in this area) and the bone ended up smashed to bits with a hammer and buried in a local maize field.

I also used to work with a foxes skull which i found on farm land allowing the carcass to rot and then returning for the skull after a period of time, i got rid of this after a time too, as i felt something wrong in continuing to work with it, around the same time if i remember, back onto the farm land i first discovered it on. i still work with fox but through other connections these days.

No matter how hard i try to escape this stuff, i still have a fascination for bones and the netherworld, it feels kind of homely, relaxing, peaceful. It became an image thing as a young adult and teenager, but now i am not quite sure what it is, i have no idea wether to pursue it or just let it drop, some one once tried to convince me i had the soul of a necromancer, its a nice fantasy, but i never quite bought it. I think its a natural human curiosity to be intrested in this area, to come to terms with death. No matter how hard i push it away, it comes back, something wants me taking notice of this area.

My first forays into tantra were led by kali and the thugee, tibetan buddhism by mahakala,vodou by papa ghede, maybe its just the imagery i find attractive, i deliberately try to work with the opposite to combat these tendencies, figures of love and fertility, but somehow thats beginning to feel dishonest, what i really seem to enjoy is death and destruction. but i tell myself in order to grow up and move on ive got to leave those things behind and adapt to more socially acceptable spiritual forms, this whole magick lark is beginning to seem like a farce, maybe if i just listened to myself and stopped buying into all these systems and traditions, whats really there would make itself known.
 
 
Unconditional Love
04:24 / 25.11.05
I realised something while dreaming last night, this fascination isnt mine, it comes from my father, its something i grew up with and have been around, my fathers love of the horrific, but it isnt mine, i adopted it with out question. a small but startling revelation, i no longer need idolise it, its become known for what it is, something that isnt me, but something i was in the presence of for sometime.

I think perhaps now is the time to purge what little is left and see what comes. I will give it ago. I am beginning to see certain parts of my life as superficial layers that i have constructed through fear, its time to peal back the layers.
 
 
Katherine
04:58 / 25.11.05
My first forays into tantra were led by kali and the thugee, tibetan buddhism by mahakala,vodou by papa ghede, maybe its just the imagery i find attractive, i deliberately try to work with the opposite to combat these tendencies, figures of love and fertility, but somehow thats beginning to feel dishonest, what i really seem to enjoy is death and destruction.

Why is that so bad? It reads to me like you are ashamed (possibly) of being attracted to them. I'm just curious as to why you feel this way.

Death and destruction whether together or separate also bring change and new beginnings.

Death is part of a cycle as far as I can see it's not an end as such. Hence I'm quite interested in how necromanic magic could work. At the moment I am trying to ignore my D&D books as I'm sure I could get a inflated/unreal idea of it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:15 / 25.11.05
I think most in the West go through the adolescent death-obsession at some point in their lives; it may even be important to do so as a way of coming to terms with ones own mortality and the mortality of those one loves.

Death is an essential part of what makes us human. Embracing the death-mysteries isn't toxic or dangerous in itself--it's obsession with this one angle that's unhealthy. But trying to shut yourself off from it altogether is unhealthy too.

Instead of trying to consciously control which part of the cycle we engage with at any given time, it might be more healthy to allow ourselves to be guided naturally from one area to another. Right now it's Winter where I am and for the last couple of months I've found myself engaging with various boneyard Gods and Goddesses; moving naturally and gently on from the work I was doing earlier in the year that focused more on the Vanir, who are concerned with fertility.

Even a person who doesn't work with Gods or spirits at all might find hirself drawn into a similar cycle, with seasons and personal events guiding them into one area of the mysteries or another.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:36 / 25.11.05
I find myself at a crossroads, i know i can go one way or another and i can feel the influences pulling me, no longer pulling me apart as they used to, but pulling none the less, its not that there are just two ways but myriad amounts. i want it to be my choice and i have fought hard for it to be my choice, and it is going to be my choice.

And today will decide some of that for me, ill see where to go after this afternoon, its a crux point.

I have a question about ancestor work for the wise, not all my ancestors get along, ie my family is divided, i try to get them to cooperate, but all i feel is intense hatred and rivalry, as if each side of the family tree wants me to choose it. Ive given them the finger and choosen myself, because i refuse to choose either. i feel the divide in me and the battle for me and my identity. i am through fighting and just want to live, basically i fight for myself and wont submit to either set of ancestors and living families.

As selfish as it may seem i wont let them rip me to pieces, i have to retain my own identity. Its been intense this morning because of this decision i have to make regarding my future, so ive woken up to fighting and a long whispering discussion with myself in the mirror. As i asserted my own position vehemently in the mirror i had a visual hallucination of my eyes becoming serpentine on several occasions, nothing i havent experienbced while tripping so i carried on reasserting my point. But today looks like the day. When will my mother and father and dead grand parents ever stop fighting.( i talk to my living parents and dead relatives in the mirror)

What i have to put with, no wonder i want the world to be empty.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:53 / 25.11.05
Well i went to my job interview this afternoon, and well i have no idea whats going to come of it, but my head is a quieter place, maybe its just nerves and worry that i personify into my family? could well be. But no divine revelations so, huge sigh of relief, next time around can i just have a normal life please.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:52 / 11.12.05
The book by martin coleman is back in print, great text, thanks for the recommendation.
 
  
Add Your Reply