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Adapting shamanic practices in the 21st century

  
 
Tucker Tripp
02:13 / 16.08.01
This springs out of part of the "Magic - change your life" tread (The part that wasn't about astral mud slinging. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Doesn't mush of folklore/fiction have the powerful mages/magi ... slinging it out just to see whose fire balls are bigger totally inadvertant pun.)

Anyway...

Some interesting things have been said by people about shamanism. I really like the idea. I think part of shamanism is about systems analysis. I know that sound all scientific (oohhgrl). But really in this post-post technobabble macro-micro scale intro-extro socieculturahavtabeyaself-what soup, we have many systems functioning on many levels interacting with each other.

My theory is that if you can map or heighten personal awareness of these systems and their interactions then you are essentially "speaking with the spirits". As the spirits are just a belief system which functions in a community, just as all systems are such.

I am very interested in the shamanic path. And I am interested in other entities possible contributions/ideas/etc to shamanism.

Eg, What about the potential for totems in technocites. What would they be like?
 
 
SMS
03:41 / 16.08.01
Someone will direct you towards Mircea Eliade's 511 page book SHAMANISM Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy ISBN 0-691-01779-4

When a shaman goes into a trance, his brain functions very much like a sleeping state. If you wish to induce this upon yourself, you may wish to get a CD of repetitive drumming (see Barbelith's bang the drum topic). I recall (though I may be wrong) something about the shaman using monotony to enter the trance. Sensory deprivation, sensory repetition, and the like.

I doubt the journey in itself would be considerably different in modern times.

I don't know if shamans really have a role in modern society. The best example I can think of is someone like Dante, travelling to the inferno, purgatory, and paradise. This seems to me very much like a shamanic journey, and perhaps his role afterwards, as a poet, is to be the doctor/artist, healing the souls of those who read his work.
 
 
SMS
03:47 / 16.08.01
quote:Originally posted by synth:
... What about the potential for totems in technocites. What would they be like?

variations on Jung's classifications? Or various computer operating systems (Unix, Linux, Windows, Mac). City animals: Rats, Birds, Insects. Selections of characters from any video game ever made, any computer program ever made.

Or maybe someone will be lucky (?) enough to have a cyborg eel as a totem. Also known as "he who chases the light."

I feel like a smile
 
 
the Fool
04:57 / 16.08.01
technocitytotems.

Taxi spirits. Know the secrets and the secret places of the city.

Traffic spirits. Bring obstruction, impatience, frustration, rage. But happy traffic spirits remove obstructions, ease tension, speed connections between places.

Skyscrapper spirits. Like mountains, like hives. Powerful, with armies.

Trash spirits. Know what is forgotten, discarded, abandoned.

Drain spirits. Guardians of the sewer underworld.

Pavement spirits.

Spirits of the stock market.

Internet virtual totems - Neuromancer/Wintermute perhaps?

Perhaps Barbelith has a spirit. Anyone want to try and contact her? I'm sure she would be quite funny and scarily intelligent.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
17:00 / 16.08.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
Wow! Spirits for individual websites..what a kickass concept. Coding your spirit. Fuck, now I have a billion Ideas runnig through my head..
LOL...I feel like a kid in a candy shop. Now I want to go put up a site....

That makes two of us.
 
 
Ierne
17:21 / 16.08.01
better the Fool you know's list of technototems brought to mind

SQUAT

The Goddess of parking spaces. Invoke Her by not-so-solemnly intoning:

Squat, Squat, find me a parking spot!

and indeed a space just right for your vehicle will be found near your destination.

I believe Squat's origin is Discordian, but most everyone I know (with a car) calls on Her for aid these days.
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:03 / 17.08.01
A question from someone who's not much of a magic bod:

Do any of you think it's a problem to appropriate traditional indigenous culture, generally based on the ways they were represented by the colonisers? Like maybe it's bad karma to try to use/"adapt" traditional magic-forms without the context of the societies they came from, and after your (white western) culture basically stamped out theirs?
 
 
Tucker Tripp
06:13 / 21.08.01
Bananapants. Your question seems somewhat loaded with the idea that culture is owned by its originators. This is not an opinion I share. Also there is a large tendency to attach personal guilt or baggage to various cultures in the context of history. I certainly have never enslaved, persecuted etc, anyone on the basis of race, religion, culture etc. Therefore I take exception to being labelled as a something.

I will do what I can do and I can't do anything else. Certainly not change events of the past. Although I can behave in a manner which is respectful of any culture that respects me.
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:33 / 21.08.01
I am curious as to what you think I was labelling you as. I also don't think my post contains the assumptions you attribute to it (i.e., that culture is owned by its originators), especially in that it's framed as a series of questions asking the opinions of others, such as yourself.

To clarify, I don't believe that anyone owns any culture. Nor do I think you ever enslaved anyone. What I am suggesting is that, first, you benefit materially from an ongoing history of imperialism, including a tremendous theft of natural and cultural resources from indigenous people by colonisers. I am therefore asking if you, and others:

a) think that using or drawing on the spiritual/occult traditions of indigenous peoples reproduces the power relations between colonisers and colonised.

b) consider the ethical issues, problems or questions involved in this.

c) wonder about the fact that most of our understanding of indigenous cultures is (i'm assuming) based on the reports of colonisers, and hence possible altogether accurate.

I am not accusing anyone of anything (yet, at least), although your response to my post does tend to suggest that the answer to (b), at least, is no. I welcome more dialogue, because I am asking these questions in a genuine attempt to understand better what people are doing, rather than to judge them.
 
 
grant
14:28 / 21.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Crunchy Mr Bananapants:
a) think that using or drawing on the spiritual/occult traditions of indigenous peoples reproduces the power relations between colonisers and colonised.

b) consider the ethical issues, problems or questions involved in this.

c) wonder about the fact that most of our understanding of indigenous cultures is (i'm assuming) based on the reports of colonisers, and hence possible altogether accurate.


This is an especially tricky question when dealing with things like Lucumi/Santeria, which is in itself generated by colonialism (a mutation of the religion of the enslaved).

Some practitioners don't deal with Anglo outsiders at all, but more and more the general sentiment seems to be: if you're called by the orisha, you're called regardless of your earthly status (nationality, culture, whatever).
In this tradition, "b" is a constant source of questioning - and those anglos who don't do that (I'm thinking of that "Urban Voodoo" book put out by the Temple of Set folks a while ago) are fairly explicit in their appropriation. You simply can't talk about that without engaging in even a passing mention of colonialization.

To a certain degree, then, I think the answer to a/ is "sort of." As an anglo santero, for example, you might be playing out the roles inscribed by colonial culture, but you're enacting a taboo -- "going native." You're allowing your spirit to be colonized by the colonized culture.

And that brings up "c." Most reports of Lucumi stuff in English that I've found worthwhile are written by initiates; people from the "colonial" culture who have been accepted into the fold by at least some of the advanced practitioners. This is an extension of the same kind of recolonization I already mentioned, yeah?

Now I'm pretty sure similar moves get made regarding Amazonian shamanism (especially regarding ayahuasca rituals), Asian religions and a few other "colonized" cultures.

However, that all is cultural anthropology, basically (even if it's done by non-professionals).

What happens when us dilettantes take the fruits of cultural anthro is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

A lot of the chaos magick current tends to use scientific practice as its model ("We place no reliance on Virgin or Pigeon; our Method is Science, our Aim is Religion" - Crowley, quoted by RAWilson). There's an emphasis on experiments, on psychological states, on skepticism (or at least the malleability of belief).

In that regard, inasmuch as scientific method can be thought of as colonial, hell yeah, it's a colonial practice. It's taking models of the world painstakingly crafted over thousands of years, yanking them out of context and using them for our own ends.

However, I still think that because of the nature of the practice -- contacting spirits, allowing something "other" to reside within you, shaping your beliefs to fit some other pattern -- the reality tends to come close to that same kind of recolonization. It might be a synthetic belief, in the sense of an artificial, intentional transplant, but it's also synthetic in the sense of a fusing of your previous belief and the opposing, appropriated belief.

I guess part of what I'm saying is beliefs & rituals are core elements of culture; the approach to appropriating them can slide into the worst sort of superficial colonialism, but once successfully appropriated, they replace both the origin culture and the colonial culture with a new kind of culture.
 
 
Wyrd
19:20 / 22.08.01
Cultural appropriation - wow, there's a hot topic, and one I've seen discussed in many fora.

Anyone who's ever looked into working shamanically in any depth will have to work through this very tricky issue.

It's a difficult one because if you tried to stick strictly to a non-appropriation ticket then you couldn't even bandy around the word Karma (usually misapplied anyway) or chakra, since that's hardly a Western ideology (well, my cultural background).

Generally what it comes down to, as far as I'm concerned, is respect. If a culture has a specific ritual, which they consider sacred and not to be shared with outsiders then I'm cool with that. It's their right as far as I'm concerned to allow, or not allow, people into their traditions.

What a lot of Western people seem to think is that everyone has the right to any spiritual traditions. That's just crap in my opinion. For goodness sakes, within most cultures access to certain traditions was limited. Yeah, in some cases that was because the spiritual tradition was also a political hierarchy, but that's not always the case.

I have had a lot of intereactions with entities from a variety of cultures - American Indian, Santerian, Norse, Irish, Vodoun, Australian, etc. but I don't think that makes me part of those cultures, or that I have a right to any of their traditions. I'd be quite reserved in admitting some of these experiences to an initiated Mambo, for example.

Anyway, I don't think it's a simple as saying that nobody owns a culture so you can muck about with anything you like. Nor do I think it's as simple as saying that you have to stick with the tradition of your own people (since there are so many factors to do with racial inheritance that can go back a loooong way).

It's all about respect I think. And realising when you're acting out of fear from your own insecurities rather than addressing the scary core issue.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
09:39 / 23.08.01
OK... Let me try and communicate where I'm coming from...

As far as I know I am an entity which exists within the parameters which I allow myself. I am interested in mystical practice. There are many cultures in my local and extended world which have developed various techniques of mystical practice.

I don't believe in inherent sacredness for its own sake. Once you go down that road you start to get into holy war territory. As far as I am concerned, as I thought I had expressed, all cultures are availble to all entities who wish to gain elements from these cultures. It seems some of you think this is a controversial statement, I can't help that.

Basically what I'm talking about is personal gain and respect. There seems to an undercurrent of political correctness I just can't ignore. What is the use of the worlds various cultures if we all can't enjoy the benefits if we choose. You cannot say that "a culture" would have problems with me appropriating their techniques. Some people who see themselves as members of this culture might have problems with me, some might not.

So what is culture. In my opinion it is a group of behaviours that has been established by a group of people who see themselves as affiliated with each other in some way. In this way there are probably millions of cultures in this world. Now.

Are members of a culture actually affiliated by anything tangible or important? Depends on your viewpoint. In many senses the sole factor connecting them is belief structure. Therefore if members of a particular culture decide to approapriate a new belief system the culture changes. You might say that the old culture ceases to exist or exists alongside (in a historical way) the new culture.

Basically people are very precious about their cultures. Its like Nationalism. People seem to feel a strong attachment to their contry of origin. To what end?

This whole arguement is very frustrating to me. It devaules my approach from its very basis. Shamanism for me is an approach. It is an attitude. Eg. experiential approach as opposed to academic approach. If you notice there is nowhere in this tread that I have mentioned specific cultural approapriation, although I have no prblem with it. The assumption that I cultures should be respected by being exclusive is nonsensical to me. I don't want to colonise I want to share. If anyone wants to understand my cultures I will endeavor to explain them to those people.

As far as I see it we need to get down to somantics because I think I see th idea of culture as very different from others on this thread. Although I wouldn't mind getting back to the dealing with practical techniques instead.
 
 
the Fool
09:39 / 23.08.01
I think your actually arguing in two directions here. Synth is trying to understand process and a re-evaluation of traditional context. Jackie Crunchypants seems to be saying that this is an appropriation of context and process and not without moral/ethical implications.

Is appropiation of process (the how) without context (the what) still cultural theft?
 
 
Tucker Tripp
09:39 / 23.08.01
I don't know if I have been clear enough in expressing myself...

Essentially it is my belief that any spiritual relevance an individual can find in this world is their right. I know not all of you agree with this, but hear me out.

I'm not the first to say this, I mean as far as I understand it this idea is fairly integral to chaos magic. But that aside it just makes sense.

Wyrd, I like your use of the Jewish cultural example. This is a perfect example for me as it is the culture I was brought up in. In traditional or orthodox Judaism converts are discouraged. Why? Because the faith sees itself as the one true religion and has an exclusive attitude about birth right and all that crap. This will probably label me as an anti-semite. I am not.

I am not denying that many cultures take themselves very seriously. What I am saying is that that attitude is bollocks and further it breeds hate. If the most popular religions of the world said "Hey we got this idea right, I know it sounds a bit funny but why don't you try it on." "What you're already a toothpaste worshiping Hippo? Oh thats ok we love you guys you'll fit right in. Its ok if you don't have exactly the same ideas as us, obviously something in our approach appealed to you!"

null"Take a leaf out of Discordianism - please" Bubbled the words incoherently as he prayed them through a straw inserted in the milk of the sacred chao.

Now the fact that most of the worlds major faiths are not only exclusive but ready, willing and able (and past history...) to have wars over this it seems like a somewhat fuckin stupid approach. The time of the exclusive club is over.

That is why I labelled this thread "Adapting....... in the 21st century"

Obviously if I want to use elements of a cultures spirituality I respect that culture. "Do what thou wilt... and harm none" Big A.C.

Mr Crunchy Banapants:
quote: Do you really think that people in indigenous cultures have the same ability to use western cultures, as people in western cultures have to appropriate their's? Surely not? It's not about ownership, but about whether people see this as a problem and how they address it.

I totally agree. But saying that this means that I should therefore not have access to their culture if I want to is plainly illogical. Its like recognize a problem and instead of fixing it decide to build bigger boundaries. And on fixing it I believe that one way to improve relations is through communication, cultural sharing. Its quite easy to say "politically it seems wrong to do this because I feel guilt about what my ancestors have done to you." But this attitude doesn't help anyone it reinforces the offender/ victim relationship.

Incidentally I will apologise for any wrong doing that any of my statements cause others all you need do is ask so here is the apology:

Sorry

If you feel it applies to you please make use of it, (there's plenty to go around, no shoving)

[ 23-08-2001: Message edited by: synth ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:11 / 26.08.01
I just got back from Mexico yesterday and I'm still undergoing major culture shock so I apologize if I miss the main point of this thread.

It seems as if there are a few things being discussed, one of which is the whole cultural appropriation thing which I'll say very little on mainly because I agree with what Wyrd said and I don't want to be redundant as well as, as Synth pointed out, it wasn't what s/he was getting at in the first place.

The only thing to that I will add is that it's not only the political/'cultural' wishes that can/can't be respected but also the wishes of the spirits of those places/cultures. From a shamanic point of view the wishes of those spirits may be more important than the wishes of the people when involving learning rituals/techniques that involve those spirits.

For example, I found it very dangerous for me to be doing middle world journeys while in Mexico because I was a 'gringo' and I had to take extra precautions to guard my body while doing upper and lower world journeys. Some spirits responded well to respect, some wanted to know what the hell I was doing there.

Anyway, regarding the main thrust of the thread "Adapting Shamanic Practices in the 21st Century" and the subsequent question of: Do Shamans have a role in modern society?

There is, in quite a few countries, modern day shamanism being practiced. In Korea there is (according to, if memory serves, anthropologist Marjorie Balzer) a television show where the shaman helps clients find money and jobs. (an extension of the ancient practice of finding water and herds for hunting). According to Timothy Knab, in his book "The War of Witches", the curanderos and brujos of Mexico practice a type of shamanism (using lucid dreaming to effect the shamanic journey instead of entheogens or percussion) which is quite in demand by a large number of the population. As a matter of fact, sometimes the healing of the curandero works well in conjunction with that of the 'medico' which shows that when understood and accepted culturally, the shaman can have a definite role in a modern day society (or at least on the outskirts of). Here is a great quote from Knab:

"I had seen people die of this type of soul loss, I told Luis (the medical doctor). It was a progressive condition that fed off itself, as well as people's fears about it. Luis agreed that the girl's medical problems were probably not any more serious than those of most children living under the same conditions, but said that he would make sure there was nothing else that he could treat. He wished me luck in resolving her other problems, and I thanked him."

This sort of leads into the next point that I noticed in the thread which is about what 'shamanism' is in regards to methodology etc.

While there is a cross-cultural methodology that helps define shamanism, it also comes along with a cross-cultural 'job description'. This job description, as Wyrd mentioned above, has to do with service, to the spirits and the community of the shaman.

I have sort of a 'blue collar' ethic when it comes to shamanism, it's all about results for the client. Whether it be healing, protection, providing abundance, providing guidance, functioning as a psychopomp for the dead, etc. it's all about the results.

I'm not sure why but the spirits that help a shaman (and give the shaman 'power') have an agenda and if you are going to get their help, you have to help them with their agenda. This is a rather simplistic explanation but for 'good' spirits and their shamans (which is how most anthropologists define shamans... the bad ones go by other names even if they use the same techniques) this involves serving the community. For the 'evil' spirits and their 'sorcerors', 'bokshi', 'brujos', etc. this involves more selfish predatory agendas.

There's always a price to be paid for what the spirits will give you. This is even true in the physical realms where the shaman charges for services (whether in dollars, a chicken, services or whatever). Nothing is free, there is always an exchange of energy.

The discussion of technology spirits is cool mainly because most people think that communing with the ancient spirit of 'bear' is more powerful than that of a pigeon, or toaster, or an automobile.

If the spirit figures into the purpose of the shaman's journey/ritual/etc. then the shaman is going to have to interact with it. If I was going to deal with a case of soul loss by someone who had recently been hit by a car, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't have to deal with the car spirit in some way.

So Synth, what did I miss or misinterpret in the above? I just reread it and I'm not sure I'm not off by a few degrees.
 
 
Wyrd
20:50 / 26.08.01
Yo, Lothar, great to have to back! I certainly missed your contributions.

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I have sort of a 'blue collar' ethic when it comes to shamanism, it's all about results for the client. Whether it be healing, protection, providing abundance, providing guidance, functioning as a psychopomp for the dead, etc. it's all about the results..


Yep, I'd tend to agree with you there. And in the original tribal societies from which shamanism originated, if you didn't come up with the goods then you'd be an outcast, or worse still, dead. Gulp!

quote:There's always a price to be paid for what the spirits will give you. This is even true in the physical realms where the shaman charges for services (whether in dollars, a chicken, services or whatever). Nothing is free, there is always an exchange of energy.

A friend of mine has a rather good saying. "The difference between prize and price is only one letter". I have found that to be abundently true in my own experience.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
06:27 / 28.08.01
I think the main thing that this thread illustrates is that shamanism is such an individual practise that we can't even come to a consensus on what it is let alone common practices, that we can share.

Lothar, I like what you said. I was sort of more interested in interpreting the role of the shaman given the change of social circumstances in many cases, ie big techno city living in largely faceless society as opposed to rural tribe etc.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:48 / 28.08.01
quote:Originally posted by synth:
I think the main thing that this thread illustrates is that shamanism is such an individual practise that we can't even come to a consensus on what it is let alone common practices, that we can share.


Actually, I don't think it really is that 'individual', I think (and got into this pretty deeply in a thread on shamanism a few months ago - it seems to have dropped off the back end of the magic forum though - which will probably turn into an article this week) that shamanism has been pretty well defined but despite (and maybe because of) the immense amount of writing and study on the subject the term shamanism has been widely and grossly misused and misunderstood.


quote:Lothar, I like what you said. I was sort of more interested in interpreting the role of the shaman given the change of social circumstances in many cases, ie big techno city living in largely faceless society as opposed to rural tribe etc.

This gets back to the common practices thing. From a wide view point shamanism today is the same as shamanism in the past: The shaman is a mediator between the spirit world and the secular world and protects or heals individuals or the body politic of the 'tribe' or 'community'. The specifics within may shift from time and place but those parameters are still there.

Maybe today web sites, or flyers, or ads in Shaman's Drum magazine get the word out. More often than not, shamans today have to have day jobs in addition to their 'calling' and they may include other methodologies into their services (such as psychotherapy, acupressure, etc.) but they are still being called for the aid of their community whether it be soul loss, spiritual intrusions, possessions, psychopomp work, or the 'warrior' aspects of defending against malevolent spirits and 'sorcerors'. When a client needs a shaman and truly wants to heal, he/she will find themselves on the shaman's door by sometimes very strange means. There are definitely less 'demand' for shamanic work in 'western' countries but the need and the purpose is still there.

I went to a gathering in Oracle, Arizona (Tending Sacred Circles, run by Carol Proudfoot Edgars) last year which was a gathering of Shamanic Practitioners from around the world. Somewhere between 2-3 hundred people showed up and although there were different traditions and lineages and languages present, pretty much everyone had a common idea of what shamanism was and what the shaman's role is. This isn't to say that there weren't politics involved and that there aren't disagreements as to specifics but the main gist is fairly well agreed upon.

Maybe I'm still missing something or maybe your interested in discussing the lower fractal views of how modern shaman's do the nuts and bolts of their practice.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
10:24 / 29.08.01
quote: Maybe I'm still missing something or maybe your interested in discussing the lower fractal views of how modern shaman's do the nuts and bolts of their practice


I'm not sure what you mean by "lower fractal views" - but I love you to explain.

No you're not missing anything. I agree with your definitions of the shamans role traditionally. I was more getting at whether the role can/could/would/pood? be adapted or changed or added on to retaining the tradition but also incorporating new potentialities which accompany new or changed situations.

Another quetion I will ask you, since you seem to have considerable knowledge on the matter, is this: Recently I have been experimenting with lower world journeys but I sometimes have difficulty focusing and I'm not sure how much imagination to use and how much "free floating" (for lack of better term). Do you have any advise? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

I have had some success and some interesting experiences with it so far...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:09 / 30.08.01
quote:Originally posted by synth:


I'm not sure what you mean by "lower fractal views" - but I love you to explain.


I was feeling like I was looking at things from a 'higher' vantage (i.e., How are shamans different in the 21st century? They're not, they're still doing the same things) as opposed to a 'lower' vantage (i.e., What do shamans do differently in the 21st century? Well, they advertise in web sites, can use prerecorded drumming if a drum isn't available, interact with technology spirits that didn't exist 100 years ago, etc.)

quote:No you're not missing anything. I agree with your definitions of the shamans role traditionally. I was more getting at whether the role can/could/would/pood? be adapted or changed or added on to retaining the tradition but also incorporating new potentialities which accompany new or changed situations.

One of the best things that I think could be added (and is by many) is the use of other practices in the shaman's treatment. For example, in the past, herbalism was used to assist in healing. Maybe someone got cut and the subsequent trauma allowed for soul loss to occur. The shaman will go in search of the soul part but may also assist in the physical healing by using his knowledge of herbs to (for example) use a leaf of comfrey to help stimulate healing and fend off infection.

In today's practice, combining other healing techniques (mental/emotional: psychology; physical: western medicine or alternative Eastern medicine of the Chinese or Ayurvedic Indian; spiritual: reiki or other energetic healing modalities; etc.) is something shamanic practitioners can do that is effectively the same as what our predecessors did in the past. Again, it's use whatever works for the community.

In today's age, community could be as simple as whoever comes to you for aid or whoever the spirits guide you towards.

Something else, which gets back to the cultural appropriation thing, is that not enough people who are interested in shamanism or any form of magic or spirituality form their own relationships with the spirits and energies of the places that they live.

The old traditions developed because they worked for the people WHERE THEY LIVED and with the spirits and life around them. Trying to incorporate Peruvian shamanism into life in London or New York or Buttfuck, Alabama may not only be morally 'wrong' it may also just be not as effective as figuring out how to work with the spirits of the land and people in the area you live in.

The ancestral shamans that most people idolize and want to emulate learned how to do things that worked in their worlds not blindly follow a mythical past that didn't apply to them or their lives.

If a shamanic student really feels the need to look to the past then they will, in my opinion, find just as much if not more power in looking to their own ancestors. If not the traditions then the individual spirits themselves.

Then, learn to deal with the spirits of the land you live on, the animals that are around you, the technology spirits you interact with on a daily basis, etc.

That, in my opinion, would be the first and best thing anyone trying to incorporate the '21st century' into their practice. That foundation will make other things either, come easier or just become irrelevant.

I don't really think that situations have changed all that much. People still want to feed themselves and their family and be safe from harm.

If you suggest some specific ideas you have of how things are different in today's world I'll have a better time of suggesting how things might be done differently.


quote:Another quetion I will ask you, since you seem to have considerable knowledge on the matter, is this: Recently I have been experimenting with lower world journeys but I sometimes have difficulty focusing and I'm not sure how much imagination to use and how much "free floating" (for lack of better term). Do you have any advise? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

I have had some success and some interesting experiences with it so far...

You're probably going to hate this answer but practice is the best solution. Also, making sure that you have a clear intent and purpose to your journey. I'm not suggesting that this is your main focus for journeying but people who mainly want to 'Joyride' are usually going to have pretty shallow experiences that fall apart quickly. When you have clear intent and purpose then your 'imagination' can be used, not to create imagry, but to refocus yourself to the task at hand.

If you are currently using a drum recording then that might also be a problem as most people reach a point where the live drum is the only thing going to get them deeper until their discipline becomes stronger. If you don't have a drum, or don't feel comfortable yet drumming and journeying at the same time, then see if there are any shamanic drum circles in your area. That's a great way to find a place where someone will drum for you while you journey (except of course when it's your turn to drum) and you can learn a lot by other people's experiences and journeys.

Also, trying different frequencies. I've met a couple people that prefer rattles to drums while journeying.

My last little 'manifesto' item is that I think a loose 'code of ethics' for practice and what the practice is would be a good thing for shamanic practitioners in the 21st century since not enough people know what shamanism is and also don't know what they may or may not be getting by going to a shamanic practitioner.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
08:00 / 02.09.01
Thanks very much for your info and attention Lothar I have really enjoyed discussing this with you and others who have responded to this thread - - Thanks to all involved.
 
  
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