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petitionary prayer or magic(k)?

 
 
Arbiter Eloquentiae
01:41 / 15.08.01
Hey now--
I'm sure I'm not the only person on this site who believes in a Being Greater Than Which None Can Be Conceived. I have practiced both magick and petitionary prayer to this Being at different times, and find prayer to be far more effective. Perhaps it is not as satisfying to the ego, which would like to think that we can affect the world in a deity-like manner, i.e. through the power of our thought alone, but prayer will further our ends if we bring our ends in line with the ends of this being (who called himself I Am That I Am.) This Entity is not a tyrant. Do these propositions seem objectionable? And if so, is for any reason beside bad experience with and distaste for others who venerate the One Deity in a foolish and narrow-minded way?

Arbiter Eloquentiae
 
 
SMS
02:40 / 15.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Arbiter Eloquentiae:
Do these propositions seem objectionable?

no.

quote: And if so, is for any reason beside bad experience with and distaste for others who venerate the One Deity in a foolish and narrow-minded way?

no.

The main rule of Chaos Magic is "do what works for you." I personally find prayer more effective than sigils, but I don't use them for the same thing. I would never pray for God to bring me some particular girl, nor would I pray for money, fame, or rain. I pray almost exclusively to make myself a better person.
 
 
Seth
09:37 / 17.08.01
There are many forms of prayer, which I mix and match without giving much thought to exactly what I’m using. It’s funny that you should mention petitionary prayer in the thread title, as this is the form that comes closest to chaos magick in its aims. I also use intercessory prayer, lamentation, meditation, contemplation, prophecy, tongues, etc (particularly tongues - I’m constantly amazing by how powerful it can be).

Try music as a means to self-development. Done properly (and mixed with prayer), it’s one of the most powerful I’ve encountered).
 
 
grant
13:06 / 17.08.01
Could you explain "lamentation" in a spiritual context?
 
 
Ierne
13:37 / 17.08.01
I'm sure I'm not the only person on this site who believes in a Being Greater Than Which None Can Be Conceived. – Arbiter Eloquentiae

Of course not. I too adore The Lord Shiva, as do lots of other people. Especially when He's in the mood for dancing.

Prayer and magick are really not that different in their goals, which is alignment with the current that drives the (this?) Universe. The processes are indeed different, and suited to different types of people.
 
 
Kobol Strom
17:14 / 17.08.01
'if we bring our ends in line with the ends of this being '
Its the 'idea of God' that we need ,in order to change ourselves and our world,and not God hirself.Thats the beauty of the Big Plan.The Entity is a sort of tyrant - because God is an idea that will always exist inside a human head,refusing to be usurped,as well as being the old proverbial 'Big Yin'.But maybe humans won't last forever,and maybe one day we'll (God forbid),have a bigger idea than God.Maybe the number of Gods and universes is a big fractal,and behind is a reflection of that fractal in a glossy fashion magazine,sat on a coffee table.Its like the King Missile song,'World War 3 is a giant Ice cream Cone' in the sense that nothing makes sense,but its certainly beautiful,strange and honest -(in its possible deceptiveness or otherwise).

And 'Everyday is like Sunday' by The Smiths.Theres some of God in that too.

[ 17-08-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]
 
 
SMS
18:45 / 17.08.01
quote:Originally posted by kobol strom:
.But maybe humans won't last forever,and maybe one day we'll (God forbid),have a bigger idea than God.


Ah, but what would convince you it isn't God?
 
 
Kobol Strom
19:34 / 17.08.01
The abiltiy to be convinced in human terms would be invalid,the revelation only being available to entities who already were convinced of their own godhood to have been able to put all other explanations for reality to the test and found themsleves the only ones around to make this analysis possible or complete,bolstered in their endeavor by the emergence of new enigmas into their controlled universe , spontaneously erupting on the supercontext and impregnating teenagers.

(I don't know)


[ 17-08-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]
 
 
Seth
13:58 / 05.09.01
quote: Could you explain "lamentation" in a spiritual context?

The important part of lamentation is the “though/yet” structure. For example, though I am going through shit, yet there is still hope (the reason that sounded so lame is because very little is going wrong with me right now). It’s a good positive thinking tool, by showing that the individual can always be victorious over their circumstances (kinda like a reframing exercise). It’s also a very powerful form of worship because it states that you will worship regardless of the situation (ie; not blame God for your life).
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
17:52 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
Of course not. I too adore The Lord Shiva, as do lots of other people. Especially when He's in the mood for dancing.

Prayer and magick are really not that different in their goals, which is alignment with the current that drives the (this?) Universe. The processes are indeed different, and suited to different types of people.[/QB]


Ierne brings up a good point in that when talking about prayer what Gods do people pray to? From a Judeo/Christian/Islamic point of view prayer is different than magic but to almost every other culture the two were completely intertwined. Prayer: "To implore or beseech" is the basis of Theurgy:

The “working of miracles” by the intervention of divine spirits (i.e., gods, power animals, ancestor spirits, Loa, Orishas, fairies, Angels, Demons, Devils, etc.). Also, as defined by Isaac Bonewits: “The use of magic for religious and/or psychotherapeutic purposes, in order to attain ‘salvation’ or ‘personal evolution’.”

Some gods want offerings of devotion or of following a certain behavioral pattern (the basis of Christian and pre-christian judaic prayer), some want other items but the 'deal making' inherent in prayer is the cornerstone of theurgic magic, which according to some (Frazer and Eliade for example) was the first type of magic there was.

In my own practice sometimes theurgy is appropriate, sometimes thaumaturgy. I personally tend towards various uses of theurgy (of which prayer is only one) more than thaumaturgy but as time goes on the two become more intertwined. Also, if there is something that I can do without calling in aid from other beings, I'll try that first. In the same way that I'm not going to pray for a god to paint my house for me when I can do the work myself.

For example, if I was to feel the need for magical defense around my home for the sake of my family I would probably do thaumaturgy first. The spirits I work with are busy beings and the Gods I work with seem to appreciate it when you take a "God helps those who help themselves" attitude.

If, after a thaumaturgical solution either failed or wasn't quite what was necessary, then I would resort to asking for aid.
 
 
Seth
20:02 / 06.09.01
Good to hear from you, Lothar! How was Mexico?

quote: From a Judeo/Christian/Islamic point of view prayer is different than magic but to almost every other culture the two were completely intertwined.

Yeah. I think the distinction developed because of a desire to distance the Judeo/Christian/Islamic systems from certain kinds of magic (the original text - prior to translation - seems to refer specifically to necromancy). That action seems to have coloured the word “magic” with negative connotations to many growing up within the systems’ framework, which unfortunately means the baby’s been thrown out with the bathwater. Shame really - but I guess everyone’s a prisoner of language to some extent.

quote: Some gods want offerings of devotion or of following a certain behavioral pattern (the basis of Christian and pre-christian judaic prayer)

Not really. Most prayer (from the Judeo/Christian angle - can’t speak for Islamic) seems to be answered regardless of behaviour. Behavioural change is for two main reasons; to become closer in devotions (it tends to sharpen the ears); and because the suggested behavioural changes make sense (they help get the most fun out of life with the least pain).

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:05 / 06.09.01
quote:
I'm not going to pray for a god to paint my house for me when I can do the work myself.


Bwwaaahhahahahahah God painting my house... that funny . . . really ...Sigh.

So how WAS Mexico Lothar?

I agree prayer is a powerful tool, in many forms. There are several deities whome I would consider patron or matron, many endevors are devotional in that reguard.

Prayer to the Christain God has been helpful in my past & also a source of guilts. More a reflection of my self... work with what/who works best.

Went to a traditional Catholic Wedding earlier this Summer... I quite enjoyed it & was quite happpy to offer my prayers then. Just returned from Burningman & my adventures there would not have been what they were with-out the Prayers & good Graces of GANESH...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:32 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:
Good to hear from you, Lothar! How was Mexico?


Most excellent. I wrote a little about it here and here.

How was the honeymoon?

quote:
Not really. Most prayer (from the Judeo/Christian angle - can’t speak for Islamic) seems to be answered regardless of behaviour. Behavioural change is for two main reasons; to become closer in devotions (it tends to sharpen the ears); and because the suggested behavioural changes make sense (they help get the most fun out of life with the least pain).


I don't think a devout satanist (or even a devout pagan) is going to get equal time with prayers as a devout Christian who follows the 10 commandments, lives up to the sermon on the mount etc.

Most denominations don't really believe that evil people will get their selfish prayers answered by God. The belief (albeit dogmatic) seems to be that the 'meek will inherit the earth' not 'do whatever the hell you want and god will reward your prayers anyway.' Whether this plays out in reality or not is (to some degree) beside the point: The devotion and behaviour is part of the dogma that most worshippers think of as requisite for being in God's good graces. Of course that didn't help Job but that's a whole other magico-religious point.

I still think (at least in the minds of most worshippers) that devotion (believing in God as the one true god, that Jesus was his son (Christian), or that Mohammed was his prophet (Islam), etc.) and behaviour (following his commandments, living the teachings of Christ, praying to Mecca, etc.) is part of the 'contract' with getting your prayers answered. It may not be the whole enchilada but it's a part of the energy exchange between human and diety.

In the old testament you had better give the right offerings AND be pretty damn devotional or else it's struck by lightning time or worse.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:40 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:


Bwwaaahhahahahahah God painting my house... that funny . . . really ...Sigh.

So how WAS Mexico Lothar?


Pretty damn fine. I have to have you over for some Mezcal.

quote:
I agree prayer is a powerful tool, in many forms. There are several deities whome I would consider patron or matron, many endevors are devotional in that reguard.

Prayer to the Christain God has been helpful in my past & also a source of guilts. More a reflection of my self... work with what/who works best.

Went to a traditional Catholic Wedding earlier this Summer... I quite enjoyed it & was quite happpy to offer my prayers then. Just returned from Burningman & my adventures there would not have been what they were with-out the Prayers & good Graces of GANESH...


I had some very interesting experiences with Catholic churches around Oaxaca. Some of them were very small, with congregations made up only of the people who lived in the small villages that the churches were in. Those churches were incredibly loving and warm and held energy that was very similar to other, more animistic and 'earthy' gods. Other churches were large Catholic edifices that were established by Jesuits and are still run with the same hard nosed 'guilt based' services. Those churches I was definitely not welcome in and had to keep my defenses up.

I still wonder which 'flavor' held the god that Christ was the son of and which one held what the gnostics consider Ialdabaoth? They both ostensibly worshipped the same god.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:57 / 07.09.01
Interesting point Lo'... is it possible that a church could start by worshiping on deity then as a result of Dogmatic Resin(TM) end up worshiping another?

Conversely one could examine Santaria as a reverse example. Where the original "Pagan" dieties recieve a face-lift become saints and continue to serve their original function under new management... so to speak...

On Mezcal:
Would be happy to join you for such a session. Perhaps a slightly less formal session of Food & drink first... even drumming, though mine is still in need of repairs...
 
 
Seth
19:40 / 07.09.01
quote: How was the honeymoon?

Amazing. I may write about it after we get the photos back. Do a topic in Conversation and scan a few.

quote: I don't think a devout satanist (or even a devout pagan) is going to get equal time with prayers as a devout Christian who follows the 10 commandments, lives up to the sermon on the mount etc.

Many people who do not follow Biblical commandments have had considerable success with prayers to the Christian God. I know countless stories of people from all kinds of backgrounds (with no prior adherence to Christian commandments) having their prayers answered by the Christian God. The Bible contains a fair few of these stories, too.

quote: In the old testament you had better give the right offerings AND be pretty damn devotional or else it's struck by lightning time or worse.

The only sure thing you can say about answers to Christian prayer from studying the Bible (and from my personal experience) is that the Christian God answers prayers according to His will. There is no sure link between actions and answers, unless inner stillness and the ability to listen is the action taken. I guess the trick is to find out what He wants and only pray for those things. If adherence to commandments is the key, then many more “good” Christians would get their prayers answered. And what about all the prayers that are answered before the action of praying (i.e.; the requests
that are granted before the petition is made)?

It’s a common misconception that is excusable because it’s mainly Christians who perpetuate it. These will be the same Christians who are more likely to be self righteous, law-bashing and guilt-ridden. The predominant concept in communicating with the Christian God is grace: freely given, unmerited favour. In other words, there’s nothing anyone can do to make the Christian God more inclined or less
inclined to answer prayers, besides praying for the things that God wants anyway. Therefore, the action of Christian prayer is to permanently change the person praying (prayer as a key ingredient to discovering the will and mind of God), rather than the holiness of the person being a means to enhance short-term results. So I guess it’s prayer producing change results, rather than change producing prayer results.

I don’t know if that confirms or contradicts your use of the term “energy exchange.” Personally, I’d use the word “relationship.” Useful language differences? Maybe.

quote: Interesting point Lo'... is it possible that a church could start by worshipping on deity then as a result of Dogmatic Resin(TM) end up worshipping another?

I reckon that’s not only possible but widespread. Let me gather my thoughts. Is it a question for this topic?

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Fishboy
09:50 / 08.09.01
But isn't preying a little silly? If we are constantly connected to everything by the invisible magic flimgibby, isn't begging and crawling a bit counter-productive? There's no real humility in it, because at the core everything is the same and thus nothing is greater or more worthy of praise than anything else. In my anteater opinion honest communication in whatever language you speak to yourself is far more useful than any forced words.
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:53 / 08.09.01
Well that would depend on one's concept of Prayer... not to mention who one's praying to.

Dancing has been a great form of Prayer to Shiva... So's getting high.

Lovemaking & intamacy are wonderful forms of prayer to Ishtar & Venus...

and so on . . .
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:53 / 08.09.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:

Therefore, the action of Christian prayer is to permanently change the person praying (prayer as a key ingredient to discovering the will and mind of God),


I'm really just picking nits here (and talking about the history and theory of theurgy in a general sense. Especially how it applied to the middle eastern tribes that were the basis of what became Judaism and subsequently helped form Christianity) but it still sounds like devotion is still a part of the equation. Devotion to the Christian God and believing that discovering his will and mind is a beneficial step in personal growth.

Getting back to the reason of my initial post, I wanted to put the 'division' between prayer and magic into a different light. They aren't separate animals but different specific techniques within a bigger encompasing methodology.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Seth
10:19 / 08.09.01
quote: But isn't preying a little silly?

Freudian slit?

quote: Originally posted by Lord of anteaters:

If we are constantly connected to everything by the invisible magic flimgibby, isn't begging and crawling a bit counter-productive? There's no real humility in it, because at the core everything is the same and thus nothing is greater or more worthy of praise than anything else. In my anteater opinion honest communication in whatever language you speak to yourself is far more useful than any forced words.


Prayer doesn’t necessarily have to be an act of worship. Can’t speak for anyone else here, but sometimes I use it as worship, other times as conversation, sometimes as other stuff entirely. The words “begging” and “crawling” can seem very appropriate if your perspective is from the outside looking in (and I imagine it’s often true for a lot of people on the “inside,” too). From the inside, the level of mutually expressed love means one never needs to beg or crawl.

As far as “everything is equal” goes, that’s quite a faith statement. But hey, that means you’re in good company! Welcome to the discussion.

Totally agree about honest communication. I’m not one for putting on some kind of super-spiritual act, because it's not necessary for me in my communication with the Christian God. Other beings may have particular ways in which they want to be addressed. In my experience, structure in prayer to the Christian God is more for the sake of the person praying, and I only use it in that context (which is rare). The important thing is that the words aren’t forced. Prayer is a joy, it comes totally naturally, and has been shown to have all kinds of benefits to mental and physical well being.

quote: Originally posted by PATricky:

and so on . . .


I’ve had some fab times using dance as prayer (that kind of energised feeling, where you know you could dance like a nutter for hours. Amazing. A DJ with an encyclopaedic hip hop discography helps - the dirtier beats, the better). I’ve used drums/cymbals as prayer (one interesting comment I had was from a lady in the congregation who likened my playing to speaking in tongues. Very true). I’ve also started writing some of them down as prose (in a way, my lyricism has always been about prayer).

quote: Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:

I'm really just picking nits here (and talking about the history and theory of theurgy in a general sense. Especially how it applied to the middle eastern tribes that were the basis of what became Judaism and subsequently helped form Christianity) but it still sounds like devotion is still a part of the equation. Devotion to the Christian God and believing that discovering his will and mind is a beneficial step in personal growth.


I think we’re probably making similar points but using different language and emphases. I wanted to respond to your original post because I felt like it was a bit simplistic and inaccurate to say that prayer is an “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine” arrangement. To reduce it to that simple a transaction is to devalue the extent, complexity and quality of interaction that is taking place (which is why I chose the word relationship), as well as focusing on the immediate event of results based prayer rather than it’s context in overall relationship/personal development. Probably the truth lies in an overlap between our posts, hence my question as to whether I’d confirmed or contradicted your points.

Looking back at Arbiter Eloquentiae’s topic starter (which seemed to me to be referring to an unnamed God of all Gods), it looks as though the person praying benefits from prayer much more than the deity being prayed to. I mean, if there is a supreme being, why would it need our worship or prayer? I’m thinking that the whole arrangement is really about the growth of the person praying, and the this “God of Gods” gets it’s kicks by seeing it’s own unconditional love expressed. What does everyone else think? Does this being even exist?

quote: Originally poster by Lothar Tuppan:

Getting back to the reason of my initial post, I wanted to put the 'division' between prayer and magic into a different light. They aren't separate animals but different specific techniques within a bigger encompasing methodology.


My first post in this particular topic expressed similar sentiments. I personally resist using the term “magic” to describe some things because I’m not sure it’s appropriate to some of the techniques (which seem better classified within other terminology). It’s a term that I use cautiously until I know more about what’s being discussed. In hindsight, I’m doubting whether the techniques in my original post were fairly classified by the term “prayer.” They probably spill outside the box a bit.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:36 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:


I think we’re probably making similar points but using different language and emphases. I wanted to respond to your original post because I felt like it was a bit simplistic and inaccurate to say that prayer is an “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine” arrangement. To reduce it to that simple a transaction is to devalue the extent, complexity and quality of interaction that is taking place (which is why I chose the word relationship), as well as focusing on the immediate event of results based prayer rather than it’s context in overall relationship/personal development. Probably the truth lies in an overlap between our posts, hence my question as to whether I’d confirmed or contradicted your points.



Yup. I agree in that we are saying similar things with different foci. My 'simplistic' definition (which was intentionally simple) was to put the cross-cultural foundations in a new light. Each religion and religious 'worshipper' is going to have many different specific beliefs, techniques, etc. but the basis behind the action is not unique to 'supreme god worship' and is not non-existant from most magical practice which, to me, is what A.E.'s first post in this thread was implying.

Most magical practitioners I've encountered have had meaningful relationships with at least one or more deities and don't limit themselves to just thaumaturgical practices.

Which brings up another question: To those who worship one monotheistic 'supreme' deity, do you grant that when someone prays to gods such as Shiva, Vishnu, Ellegua, Ganesh, Odhinn, Freyja, Damballah, Sophia, Zeus, the Animal King of Bears, Great Spirit, etc. that they are praying to a 'god' that may be just as holy and important to them as the 'one deity' is to you? Or are they just 'spirits' or (even worse) 'false gods' or 'demons'?

Is the form of the god important or is the intent and actions of the worshipper what defines the quality of their worship?
 
 
Ierne
17:34 / 10.09.01
To those who worship one monotheistic 'supreme' deity, do you grant that when someone prays to gods such as Shiva, Vishnu, Ellegua, Ganesh, Odhinn, Freyja, Damballah, Sophia, Zeus, the Animal King of Bears, Great Spirit, etc. that they are praying to a 'god' that may be just as holy and important to them as the 'one deity' is to you? – Lothar Tuppan

Thank you Lothar.

I am equally anticipating and dreading the answer(s) to your question.
 
 
Seth
09:52 / 11.09.01
It’s important to note that belief in a “Supreme Being” isn’t confined to monotheistic faith. There is considerable evidence pointing towards such a concept in many cultures (see: Andrew Lang’s “The Making of Religion” and Wilhelm Schmidt’s “The Origin and Growth of Religion” , with such terms as the absent gods, higher gods, the sky gods being used to describe such an entity. G K Chesterton describes the sense of the “final altar to the unnamed god” fairly succinctly (if a little misinformed in his choice of examples) in “The Everlasting Man.” Indeed, Hindu faith can be interpreted as a monotheism hiding inside a polytheism (all gods being aspects of Brahman. The analogy doesn’t entirely work because by worshipping an aspect of Brahman you are worshipping Brahman - same logic as any trinity but extended over a million beings rather than three), although that isn’t doing the complexity/simplicity of their faith full justice. So I guess you could rephrase the question, not as “are other gods to be seen as spirits, false gods or demons,” but as “what must the unnamed god/’Supreme Being’ be like, to be viewed in such a way by cultures who have myriad other gods?” The main point being: the concept of a “supreme being” re-experiences itself in so many other cultures as to be unavoidable, be they monotheist or polytheist (or something else entirely).

As to what I think of other gods? I will always applaud the instinct to worship, the nobility of man/woman kneeling to what they understand to be their lord. I always find much more that is beautiful in worship of an external god/gods to worship of the self. Shit: I even share a certain brotherly love with football fanatics (many faith/worship parallels - and a hell of a lot of prayer!). As we covered in the Out, Vile Thing topic, there could be numerous sources of these gods (be they gods, animal spirits, demons - not an exhaustive list. I’m tired and lazy and caught up in Godspeed...!). Indeed, something not covered is whether any of this exists in an objective sense at all. As to whether the form of the God has any bearing, logic would dictate that the concept of the “Supreme Being” or “Being Greater Than Which None Can Be Conceived” is considerably wider and encompasses much more than specialised deities. And yes, other gods can be just as important to the worshipper as this being is to those who choose to worship it.

I’m sorry if I have offended anyone by identifying my faith with this being. My understanding of my God has always been exactly that description: a “Being Greater Than Which None Can Be Conceived.” Could I be wrong? Yes. Could I be right? Yes. Would someone who had a deeply personal relationship with the Animal King of Bears or Freyja describe their god using that definition? I don’t know, but I would guess not (as previously discussed, I would imagine that individuals within the Hindu pantheon could be viewed in that respect, if not immediately with specific worship practises, but overall in the context of Brahman).

As far as practises go (magic or petitionary prayer), no-one on this thread has adopted an either/or stance - rather, we all seem to be saying “both/and.” It was AE who said that prayer seemed to work best with this entity. Has this topic been derailed by a discussion about the “Being Greater Than Which None Can Be Conceived?” In hindsight, maybe. Am I the only person here willing to entertain the possibility of its existence (apart from the topic starter)? Did I misunderstand the original post (it seems pretty hard to read wrong)? If you’re out there, Arbiter, please extrapolate further.

(...expressionless gets ready to dodge rotten fruit...)

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:52 / 11.09.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:

As far as practises go (magic or petitionary prayer), no-one on this thread has adopted an either/or stance - rather, we all seem to be saying “both/and.” It was AE who said that prayer seemed to work best with this entity. Has this topic been derailed by a discussion about the “Being Greater Than Which None Can Be Conceived?” In hindsight, maybe. Am I the only person here willing to entertain the possibility of its existence (apart from the topic starter)? Did I misunderstand the original post (it seems pretty hard to read wrong)? If you’re out there, Arbiter, please extrapolate further.

(...expressionless gets ready to dodge rotten fruit...)

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]


I agree with what you said in your previous post (the stuff I snipped also) and from what we've talked about in this and other threads, I think that you're personal faith is pretty cool and one that I highly respect.

True confessions time. I do personally believe in a "Being greater..." while I don't follow an orthodox Christian belief system (gnostic christian is the closest I come) I have had some very interesting experiences with shamanic journeys to various realms of the dead. These weren't 'near death experiences' or anything just journeying to places where you definitely have to watch your step. Journeying to death and beyond (which even in a good guided visualization session can be very strong) can put you, albeit briefly, with what is beyond. An example is a Tamang belief of the god Yama.

Yama, the god of the dead who punishes the souls in the hell of Yamalok, the horned demonic evil being, is only like that when seen through the wheel of karma. When everything has been stripped away from yourself and you can look from outside the wheel of karma, Yama is the thousand eyed god of compassion who knows nothing but love and weeps for our freedom.

On 3 separate occasions (2 of which had nothing to do with Yama), I have briefly touched that same source of 'love' that seems to be behind Yama's purpose. Ereshkigel of Sumerian mythology is similar.

Whatever that 'love' is, to me it is that 'Being greater than...' When the shamanic stuff gets hairy and nasty and seems just too tough to continue, it's the fleeting imperfect memory of those brief moments that can restore my faith in myself, the path I've chosen, and what I know to be right in my heart.

I'll go get some tissues and we can begin the 'hug in' properly now.

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
grant
17:51 / 11.09.01
Eleggua is pretty explicity working under the auspices of a more distant, more powerful Creator, who granted the little guy his gifts with languages.
I'm pretty sure all the "polytheistic" religions are really monotheism in disguise - not 100% sure, but I can't think of one that isn't.
I reconcile the conflict within myself this way: The commandment given on Sinai is "Thou shall not have any other gods before me." To me, it's clear that the orisha, the saints, the various avatars and such don't come before, but come AFTER.
In this sense, I think "god" is a misleading word.
 
 
The Knowledge
14:28 / 02.10.01
ain't it more like 'all monotheisms are actually polytheisms in disguise'

or is it all just a big old mobius strip?
 
 
Seth
19:21 / 02.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Malphas:
or is it all just a big old mobius strip?


It's a real chicken and egger. All we know for sure is, both concepts are deeply linked and have their birth way back in pre-history.
 
  
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