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03:10 / 14.08.01

I hope this is an interesting enough question to others to justify the thread -- I didn't want to further knock the Magick--a means to change your life? thread off-topic:

I have noticed that people make frequent reference to "community" when talking about magic (I notice it most when shamanism comes up, but shamanism doesn't have a lock on it). I suddenly realized that I didn't know precisely what y'all mean when discussing the "community" as it relates to your magical practices.

People aware of your magical work who desire help? People in your lives oblivious to magic? The world at large? None of the above? I find it interesting that many in the collective are avoiding the solipsistic MIGHTY MAGE trap, but I'm not sure if I've quite sussed out how.

03:10 / 14.08.01

Well this is really the question I was trying to raise in my post, before I went off on a tangent about comedy magus's and inadvertently de-railed it.

It's part of a shaman's role to serve his community, but what exactly does that mean in the 21st century?

Who are the modern shaman's clients? Is it your close personal friends who know you're a magician and ask you to help them out with things? Do you advertise your services in the local paper? How does your role as a shaman gel with our societies apparent disbelief in magic?

In the modern city would you still define your community as the people who live geographically close to you? do your work colleagues count? what about web communities such as this?

Has the role of the shaman become somewhat redundant because most people don't believe in magic? Or has it always been like that, for example, 16th century folk visiting the local cunning man in secret to avoid other people thinking they're trafficking with devils/going against the church.

Do you think the shamanic role needs to be radically re-defined to adapt itself to 21st century living? Or is it OK as it is?

How do shamans on barbelith interpret the part of the role that involves serving the community? It's something that's come up a few times before on threads and I'd be interested to see how people respond.

Perhaps all these concerns are intellectual and once you're on the road, certain situations will present themselves and you know it's up to you to sort them out. I'd very interested to hear peoples thoughts on this matter.

Mordant Carnival

15:53 / 14.08.01

Yes, thank you very much, G.D. I'd actually begun to entertain the idea that you weren't deliberately stirring people up and then I read this.

quote:Originally posted by Ghost Doctor:
I went off on a tangent about comedy magus's...

I actually had something pertinent to say here but now I'm going to have to stick my head under a cold tap again.

[ 14-08-2001: Message edited by: Mordant Carnival ]

Mordant Carnival

16:50 / 14.08.01

Ok, back on topic again. (Will use the Squabble-in thread for future ranting. Sorry.)

Community was once a fairly easy concept to define. It meant, pretty much, a group of people living and working around each other, like a village for instance.

Now times have changed, at least in the Western world, and I think community now means different things to different people. For example, I don't really have that much contact with the people who live near me except for one close freind. I would define my community as my family and my freinds, the people who I'm in regular contact with. There's also a looser body of people who I don't have so much to do with but who I'd still characterize as part of my community; eg, my fellow students at Uni, local shopkeepers, co-workers as well as other people I don't exactly think of as freinds but who I run into frequently- regulars at my favourite pubs and clubs, for instance.

On top of this, I'd also extend my definition of community to the online world. I now regard Barbelith as part of my community.

To make it clear what I'm talking about for the rest of the post I'm going to coin an annoying and wanky phrase: neocommunity. Kvetch away- I need some shorthand here.

Now as to the way my magick relates to this: my abilities are limited at the moment, but I can help out with the odd new job or answer some magick-oriented question- that sort of thing. As my skills improve it is becoming all the more important to me that I can use them to benefit my community at large. That's why, besides CM, I'm looking ito healing techniques such as reiki.

I'd say that there's definately a real place for magick in a community like the one I've described. Maybe popular opinion doesn't have much truck with magick, but my neocommunity is just lousy with urban shamans, wiccans, numerologists and all manner of curious onlookers. And there's always the desparate skeptic, ripping the mick out of you in the public eye and sidling up later with a half-hearted apology and a wistful: "Of course, I don't really believe in all this but do you think you could read my cards/help me get a pay rise/whatever?"

To quote Ghost Doctor again: quote: Perhaps ...once you're on the road, certain situations will present themselves and you know it's up to you to sort them out.

For once, G.D., we agree.

19:42 / 14.08.01

Glasgow used to have a regular psychic fare at the Central Station Hotel,and it was quite popular,some of the locals in the West End of Glasgow do Readings for a tenner in the Pubs,on weeknights.They're good.I've had gypsies read my palm in the street,recently.There might be a scene in England,but I'm not really aware of it.As far as youth movement towards more boldness in underground cultures,Glasgow has a really positive contingent of Heavy metal/Goth dudes that hang out together,there are quite a few of them around.But these gatherings are an ephemaral thing,I hope they are on the rise.I might like to be a part of it somehow.As far as I know the online communities,restricted though it is,are certainly,in themselves,worthy of inclusion in this debate-and getting more so every day.My habit is to move from one place to another,barely stopping too long,a bit of a cultural hobo.I'm looking for answers to experiences as well as trying to orchestrate other changes in my life.Its quite selfish come to think of it,and perhaps thats what my dream about the mugger was saying,that I should get out there some more,and watch the watchmen.

16:52 / 15.08.01

okay, back to the topic. [grin] Starhawk has involved herself in political actions and integrating magical actions in political demos.

I personally have seen her act as a focal point of togetherness in crisis. she has organized the making of magical art and weaving this into political actions.

I might now agree with everything she says in her books or does but she does do this.

23:59 / 20.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
There's also a looser body of people who I don't have so much to do with but who I'd still characterize as part of my community; eg, my fellow students at Uni, local shopkeepers, co-workers as well as other people I don't exactly think of as freinds but who I run into frequently- regulars at my favourite pubs and clubs, for instance.

...Maybe popular opinion doesn't have much truck with magick, but my neocommunity is just lousy with urban shamans, wiccans, numerologists and all manner of curious onlookers. And there's always the desparate skeptic, ripping the mick out of you in the public eye and sidling up later with a half-hearted apology and a wistful: "Of course, I don't really believe in all this but do you think you could read my cards/help me get a pay rise/whatever?"
I fear this sounds flippant, but... at what point after meeting someone in a pub who isn't an occultist do you bring up, "Oh, and I'm a magician"? I don't have a neocommunity of pagans around me; hell, I'm not convinced of the truth of magic work myself. Is magic for my community right out until I start going public and discussing my sigils over a beer with co-workers?

00:10 / 21.08.01

quote:Originally posted by doubting thomas:

I fear this sounds flippant, but... at what point after meeting someone in a pub who isn't an occultist do you bring up, "Oh, and I'm a magician"?

Well, for me, that would come up pretty darned quickly. I don't consider myself a magician at present, but, whether people hate me for this or not, my small talk would very often be appropriate on barbelith. This is especially true for people I don't know very well, since I can't discuss the well being of a mutual friend. But at the same time, everybody's different, so you may have a point. It does seem that the average person looks upon magic (and the concept of sigils) as rubbish (or a fun parlor trick). So there's no reason for the pub community to be much different.

13:48 / 21.08.01

I don't call it magick in everyday conversation, and I don't think of myself as a novice "magician," any more than I think of myself as a mechanic because I change my car's oil.

Mordant Carnival

19:40 / 21.08.01

quote:Originally posted by doubting thomas:

I fear this sounds flippant, but... at what point after meeting someone in a pub who isn't an occultist do you bring up, "Oh, and I'm a magician"?

I don't. Other people have brought it up for me. It's not happened in a while- I'm a bit circumspect as to who I tell now.

19:53 / 21.08.01

HMMMM...

Community is a funny concept... I currently live in a shared house that has next to no recognisable signs of community. Yet in the extended community of Friends & friends of friends (where above mentioned house-mates could be included) Many of the concepts inherent in Magik are somewhat common.

the use of Ritual is very much a social convention among Many in the Bay area. As are organised meditations, Chantings, Yoga etc...

So, what I do with-in such a context varies from moment to moment. Yes I'll participate at times... other times I won't. Discourse on related theory is so common that i'll tend to avoid it...i can only handle so many Namaste's before I flip

Still where I can be of service, I try to be of service. Be it assisting in the charging of a sigel or giving a buddy a ride.

I Don't really go around claiming o be a magician. I've been refered to as an Urban-Shaman by some, and it's not uncommon for me to use "magik" as an explanation for something... usually with a wink & a smile...

20:14 / 21.08.01

I can discuss magickal topics with colleagues,but it takes anonymity or close friendship for me to come out of the Bat-Cave!Shame.I lived with this friend for two years,and he knew I was into this shit,so one day he busted into my room and nicked one of my magick books,I come home and he's prancing around shouting out all the Holy names of the Arch-angels.Which only goes to show I was taking life far too seriously back then.When I think back,it was pretty damned hilarious.

[ 21-08-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]

16:53 / 23.08.01

I never discuss my spiritual path when meeting people for the first time. Part of that is because I have a much easier time living my life than explaining my life to people I don't know. At some point, if I've known someone for a while, it will occur to hir that:

1) Ierne practices Magick.
2) Ierne is my friend.
3) Ierne is not like all the stereotypes that get trotted out when the word "Magick" appears.
4) "Magick" is alright, even if I don't quite "get" it.

Being myself is the only way I know how to "discuss Magick" with strangers.

05:58 / 24.08.01

Great thread! It seems to have split in two directions: "what is community?" and "what is okay for me"

1. Community is any group within which you feel you belong (or its something else). This community may be a group of people, it may be a group of trees. It may by a place or circumstance within which the comfort level of the individual is heightened.

2. What is okay for me is that all my friends know I'm into magic. What they think of it does not concern me. They are still my friends, even if some of them don't get it. But they are not part of my magical community. I don't tend to tell new interactees about my magic but the more I practice the more it bleeds into my general persona and awareness and as such I sometimes find I don't need to actually say it for it to be understood.

I condiser my magical community to be two two-three of my close friends, my kung fu teacher, handful of writers, barbelith, but most of all and most importantly the moments I feel most "magical". At these times the world around me is magical, locality etc... Reality reflects back at you.

09:45 / 25.08.01

Good Points SYNTH...

What KUNFU do you study?