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Underground > Art, Fashion & Design >

The Ironic T-shirt- or is it "moronic"?

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All Acting Regiment

13:49 / 27.12.04

OK: at the moment, I'm looking for some kind of ironic t-shirt. Not a crap fcuk one that's designed to be, but like, the t-shirt of some kind of bodybuilders club or other inredibly naff macho thing. Does this exist? Or, like that bird out of Ghost World wears, with a raptor on it.

I'm male, thin, and damn ugly. I follow the normal rule for t-shirts being fairly close fitting (i.e. no "arm sails"). Do you reckon the above ideas would "work", fashion folk?

And if you don't, explain why, and if you have a problem wirth the whole idea of ironic t-shirts, let rip.

23:30 / 27.12.04

I think you should go all out on the body building theme, and get yourself a lycra unitard. They're so 2005.

ONLY NICE THINGS

02:46 / 28.12.04

Have you tried Urban Outfitters?

13:50 / 28.12.04

Ha ha, Todd and I bent our brains over something similar to this. Let's see if I can formulate something... see, I think those Urban Outfitters t-shirts are crap. I have a particular matrix for classifying art, just so you know. It was sort of born out of trying to figure out this similar t-shirt question; so it's relevant. But it's going to be hard for me to describe, because I don't think I can use tables.

To wit: the two axes are craft and intent. We indicate failure of craft as "shitty," and failure of intent as "stupid." Shitty and stupid are technical terms, so don't let them trip you up --especially stupid, which is not the best word to use. Okay, so... the four quadrants are not crap (not stupid, not shitty), camp (not stupid, shitty), kitsch (stupid, not shitty), and crap (stupid, shitty).

The tricky bit is determining whether there is a failure in craft or intent, and to what degree. This is certainly subjective, particularly as regards intent. My key position is that irony per se does not instantiate a failure of intent. Sometimes irony works & sometimes it doesn't, and this has to be decided on a case by case basis & in the context of the intent as a whole.

To me, those Urban Outfitters t-shirts fall into the crap quadrant because... first, because they're so poorly made--failure of craft. Second, because I don't know... there's something suspect about the intent & it involves the use of irony, but I can't put my finger on what it is exactly. It may have something to do with irony as a mass-produced packaged good--failure of intent, in my opinion.

See, I'm thinking that if you put your own thought into your own t-shirts & if this is a comment on your own body... it might not be stupid. I mean, it might be brilliant. But I also think that you should prepare to be misunderstood, or people might understand & just think it's stupid.

I just realized that I tend not to make statements with my clothes --i.e., I dress very plainly, which is a different kind of statement. But it's actually because I don't want to attract attention or to localize misunderstanding to my body, I want to send that sort of thing *away* from me...

14:44 / 28.12.04

I think the test case was the guy I met at a party who was wearing an Urban Outfitters style aquarmarie t-shirt that said "I'm a super-duper programmer" in sparkles, who bought the t-shirt because he was in fact, a super-duper programmer and considered himself as such. Now, strike me dead if I'm wrong, but I don't think actual, living, breathing programmers were the target audience for that t-shirt. It was designed for people who would think the t-shirt was funny because they weren't programmers and thought programmers were funny - a very 90s style of "irony." Now, does the fact that an actual super-duper programmer bought the t-shirt unironically make the t-shirt camp instead of trash, or is there another level of irony added. Also -and P, we will soon have to deal with "cool" - is it cool to wear a t-shirt that says I'm a Super-Duper Programmer when you're actually a Super-Duper Programmer? Disco Stu doesn't need to advertise.

15:06 / 28.12.04

Well, when people talk about "ironic t-shirts," they're usually not really ironic, are they? What's ironic about a raptor? These things used to be called vintage t-shirts, back when people bought them out of thrift shops, and then Urban Outfitters started making them new and they had to be named something else. And I guess since the word "ironic" gets attached to anything that hipsters say, do, or consume, we have "ironic" t-shirts.

I suppose if Strukut's a scrawny guy and wears a Golds Gym t-shirt there's some irony to that, though it's not terribly clever. The programmer wearing the sparkly programmer t-shirt that's not meant for him (I would say it's not) is ironic, and if he's unaware of the irony of his wearing it, it's all the more lovely a t-shirt.

Unless you take a t-shirt ("ironic" or not) and in wearing it you change its stated meaning in some way, I don't see how it's ironic or even what kind of statement it makes, other than "I know what's in right now," in which case you could just as well wear any number of current fashion trends.

15:10 / 28.12.04

Oh my god, you just brought up *so many* points to deal with... we can't talk about cool at the same time. Cool is way too layered. I think that cool is hors de combat, anyway.

Can we agree, at least, that the shirt is shitty? That way, we can focus on intent.

15:13 / 28.12.04

These things used to be called vintage t-shirts, back when people bought them out of thrift shops, and then Urban Outfitters started making them new and they had to be named something else.

But if they're new shirts that look like old shirts, but you know that they're not old shirts... that's a kind of irony.

15:24 / 28.12.04

Maybe they're ironic in the sense that the person who is wearing them thinks they're fasionable but really they're not?

15:25 / 28.12.04

Or maybe it's ironic you paid $30 for a t-shirt that looks like something you used to be able to get at Salvation Army?

15:28 / 28.12.04

I'm not so sure that the programmer t-shirt isn't meant for programmers. Isn't Urban Outfitters a clothing store for people, like, in their twenties? Lots of people in their twenties are programmers. I think that you could expect that a number of people who shop at Urban Outfitters are programmers. I can totally see the intent being that this shirt catches a programmer's eye & the programmer goes, Ha ha, I am a super-duper programmer. It might even be that wearing this stupid shirt is an ironic statement that the person wearing the shirt is not stupid --complicated by the fact this person is actually a programmer. I think that would be brilliant. But it may be the case that the programmer thought, What a great shirt! I am great! I am going to wear this great shirt! That would be stupid, in my opinion.

15:35 / 28.12.04

Yes to both of your above points! To your first point, I think we could be looking at simple dramatic irony --but I also think we could be looking at something multilayered, as in a) these shirts are supposed to be fashionable, b) they're not, c) I know they're not, d) do you know that I know they're not. To your second point, yes definitely --it's a big fuck you to authenticity.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:38 / 28.12.04

Or maybe it's ironic you paid $30 for a t-shirt that looks like something you used to be able to get at Salvation Army?

Essentially, yes. As far as I can tell, the process is:

a) Somebody wears a T-shirt to communicate something - for example that they are a member of Gold's Gym, or that they have visiteed Texas, or that they are a fan of Captain and Tenille.

b) Somebody else buys the T-shirt in a thrift shop. Their appropriation of the message without the signified - that is, they have not been to Gold's Gym or Texas. This could be ironic, or it could just be irrelevant.

c) Urban Outfitters, or similar, make new T-shirts which mimic the T-shirts produced un"ironically" in stage (a), to sell to people who do not visit thrift shops but wish to look as if they do, that is to mimic usage (b)...

Personally, I'm deeply suspicious of logos on T-shirts in general...

21:08 / 28.12.04

b) Somebody else buys the T-shirt in a thrift shop. Their appropriation of the message without the signified - that is, they have not been to Gold's Gym or Texas. This could be ironic, or it could just be irrelevant.

But that's just it - this is not ironic, it's merely incongruous. If that. Example - I have a t-shirt I bought while visiting San Francisco bc it's cute and has those fuzzy black 80's style letters, which read "Arcata #1." Aside from aesthetic value, the appeal of the t-shirt was nostalgic, ie reminiscent of the kind of shirts people my age wore as kids in the late 70's/early 80's. Not ironic, though.

As far as the content goes, when I acutally wear the shirt, people always ask me where Arcata is and why it's #1. I've never been there. But that's still not ironic. It's just sort of... meaningless. It's an empty 'statement,' which is why I don't really like so-called ironic t-shirts.

The more I think about it, the thing I think is actually ironic about them has to do with a "cool" commentary on how uncool it is to like anything or be a fan of anything, to the degree that you'd actually wear a shirt proclaiming your love or pride of that thing. After all, isn't the opposite of an ironic t-shirt a concert tour tshirt for, like, the Moody Blues or something? From a concert you went to and really enjoyed> - That is, a sincere tshirt.

13:36 / 29.12.04

But I think that Haus is specifically saying that b) may or may not be ironic, which seems to me the only true statement that you could make about any of this. I don't think that you could say that b) is definitely ironic or definitely not ironic, which is how I'm reading what you wrote?

FYI, I tend to work with a very stripped-down definition of irony --I think Todd and Haus know this, though I haven't worked it all out. But basically I'm opposing truth, the thing that is --I mean, whatever that is-- and irony, the thing that is not. So if somebody asks me "is this ironic," I try to think "is this the thing that is, or is this the thing that is not" and then "in what ways is this the thing that is not."

So yeah, I agree that a thing that is ironic about these t-shirts

has to do with a "cool" commentary on how uncool it is to like anything or be a fan of anything, to the degree that you'd actually wear a shirt proclaiming your love or pride of that thing.

Treading very carefully, this sets up "the thing that is not" as cool & "the thing that is" as not cool... irony is cool, truth or sincerity is uncool. But this is my problem with cool, and this brings me to:

Personally, I'm deeply suspicious of logos on T-shirts in general...

because if you ask me, it's equally uncool to wear a t-shirt that states the thing that is not as it is to wear a t-shirt that states the thing that is --and the louder the statement, the less cool. Or the quieter the statement, the less uncool. But what I'm getting at is, it's not that the statement is ironic or sincere. It's the statement.

Do you mean, Haus, logos in particular or slogans included? It extends to color and pattern for me, and it extends past t-shirts. This is why I haven't been able to buy any clothes this season except underwear. Which nobody sees.

And this is not to say that I don't think that clothes should make a statement! Honestly, I venerate people who can make brilliant statements with their clothes. If I wore white shirts and black pants all the time, that would be its own statement. But it's not about truth and irony for me, it's about intent & failure of intent.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:21 / 29.12.04

Do you mean, Haus, logos in particular or slogans included? It extends to color and pattern for me, and it extends past t-shirts. This is why I haven't been able to buy any clothes this season except underwear. Which nobody sees.

Nobody? Not even... God?

Hmmm. I have to tread carefully here, as many people I know and love wear T-shirts with logos and/or slogans, and I have a couple myself - "sincere" T-shirts, if you will, demonstrating that I like certain bands or designers, although they occupy the effectual role of underwear.

Also, of course, there's the fact that I have problems with the short-sleeved T-shirt as outerwear, and thus the presence or absence of slogan is largely academic.

However, the slogan on T-shirt seems to me sometimes to be rather like the LiveJournal interests list - it seeks to create a form of commonality or make a statement - whether that statement is that or that which is not - that would otherwise emerge or not through discourse.

Then again, it could be simple aesthetics. It's taken me a while to essay stripes...

16:05 / 29.12.04

I just feel like I'm too old to wear t-shirts with logos/words on 'em.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:06 / 29.12.04

Oh, that too, definitely.

No star here laces

16:24 / 29.12.04

It's dead simple.

Deliberately ironic t shirt = not cool.

Don't care whether it's from a thrift shop or urban outfitters. It just isn't. It's Ashton Kutcher.

Post-ironic t shirt = cool.

i.e. t shirt that plays with the idea that people wear ironic t shirts. e.g. the one i got recently in hong kong which looks like a printed olde english pub logo, badly faded, except that the whole thing is done in embroidery on an impossibly bright orange background. So you know that it isn't attempting to either a) look vintage or b) take the piss.

17:20 / 29.12.04

I just feel like I'm too old to wear t-shirts with logos/words on 'em.

And I feel that I'm too old to enjoy having men read the lettering over my boobs.

18:45 / 29.12.04

Nobody? Not even... God?

Well, Radix sees all. He is like God to me.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:38 / 29.12.04

I don't think what Laces is describing qualifies as 'post-ironic' at all, if we define 'post' as being a stage when everyone has moved past the word it's prefixing - surely what you're saying is that to be cool, people have to move up a level of cleverness and knowingness, ie be even more 'ironic'? Face it, your theory (which I don't necessarily disagree with) is structurally just the same as when people said "huh, it seems pretty uncool to wear an Oxford University sweater if you've actually studied there, but a Technical College of Kabul t-shirt... cool!", ie, the point is that you want your communication only to be understand by people smart enough to understand the code you're using... right?

No star here laces

05:43 / 30.12.04

yeah, but that's the whole point of fashion, dude.

It's exactly why it pisses me off when some studenty wankstain in mud-brown brand-free clothing starts going off on one about how people shouldn't show off and feel they have to dress up. You're dressing up yourself! It's just you're speaking a different code to a different group!

Clothing is a language. If the question is "do you consider ironic t shirts cool" then my answer is "no".

If you're wearing a trucker hat and a pair of jeans with parallel horizontal lines across the upper thighs right now you might disagree with me. But that's only because we're speaking different languages.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:05 / 30.12.04

Well I agree entirely with all of that - just being pedantic about the use of the prefix "post-", really.

All Acting Regiment

15:29 / 30.12.04

This topic has certainly been opened out- I feel it has to be added that maybe wearing a t-shirt that is not fit to wear for my target demographic perhaps makes a mockery of the system that expects there to be a target demographic.

at the scarwash

20:07 / 03.01.05

will someone tell me if these fucking unicorns are ironic or not. I don't really care, as it will still be my favorite ever piece of clothing, I'm just trying to figure it out.

Lilly Nowhere Late

11:12 / 04.01.05

I think the only t-shirts one should wear are the ones stolen out of someone's closet/drawer during a party. It's ironic how after the party, at random other events, the host keeps seeing his/her shirt on other people and saying, "I used to have a t-shirt just like that.", to which the wearer of stolen shirt says, "O, really? I got mine at Urban Outfitters."
mmhhhmmm.

17:13 / 06.01.05

It's Ashton Kutcher.

IMHO, Ashton Kutcher himself is cool. he can pull off being Ashton Kutcher because he's Ashton Kutcher. most people are not Ashton Kutcher, and aren't able to work it like that, and 90% Ashton Kutcher is not 90% as cool as Ashton Kutcher, it's just wrong.

The more I think about it, the thing I think is actually ironic about them has to do with a "cool" commentary on how uncool it is to like anything or be a fan of anything, to the degree that you'd actually wear a shirt proclaiming your love or pride of that thing.

yes. this attitude is a reflection of the deepest of hipster fears - being "outed" as someone who sincerely likes something uncool. since cool and uncool go in cycles, the safest strategy is to avoid the appearance of sincerely liking anything at all. that, of course, becomes a trap where you just end up losing your ability to muster enthusiasm for anything and rapidly become surrounded by assholes, which is basically where the hipster scene is these days.

the obvious reaction to that is postironic sincerity, which is distinguished from pre-ironic or naive sincerity by the fact that you know something is believed by hipsters to be uncool, but you sincerely like it anyway and you don't care. the confident, genuine sincerity here is the key - in my book, if i can't feel the love, you're done.

"... and that, boys and girls, that's what joycore means to me."

i think this is all complicated by people who are, for lack of a better word, sincerely ironic. some people are just detached and sarcastic in a way that's witty and insightful, and they use irony to deliver sharp, loaded critiques, not because they're afraid to look uncool. that's another kettle of fish.

Clothing is a language. If the question is "do you consider ironic t shirts cool" then my answer is "no".

If you're wearing a trucker hat and a pair of jeans with parallel horizontal lines across the upper thighs right now you might disagree with me. But that's only because we're speaking different languages.

true enough. i think that "cool" for me is largely a function of a person's fluency in hir own language.

sorry, this post rambles.

All Acting Regiment

20:13 / 06.01.05

Well!

The "ironic" t-shirt, of either the "sold in high street as ironic" or "bought in frift shop and incidentally ironic" gets quite a thumbs down from Barbelith.

I wonder if this would have been the case before they started selling the fuckers in the major shops.

19:59 / 16.03.05

Non-ironic ironic t-shirts

22:01 / 17.03.05

Is this ironic?

23:42 / 17.03.05

No.

22:32 / 19.03.05

It's funny to stumble onto the whole hipster, ironic t-shirt thing now as I live in a cultishy-hipster area of Philly and encounter every aspect of this conversation on a regular basis through work and friends. I figure I can add some things and a bit of background to the conversation. It's basically a part of what I help pitch and work with at times at the ad agency I work with. So regardless of whether you think I'm evil or un-hip because of it, I just want everyone to know that I'm not trying to do this for shameless self-promotion. It's ironic in itself, as you'll see.

Urbn came out of Philly from a few designers from my old art school and these guys helped maintain a good sense of style and design in their early fashion work for quite some time. Other groups like House Industries went different routes (fonts, etc.) in the world but all came from a similar place. As they've continued to get much too big and into the mainstream though, I think that they've lost that authenticity that they've had some grasp on. I think it's funny that the conversation gravitated towards these guys quite readily from the get go.

As you see in "Figure A.", it is known as The LifeCycle of Hipness. Now, granted, a lot of this is bullshit when spelled out plainly, but the people my workplace employs gets some personal and community art benefit from it. My friend Nick gets an opportunity to do paste-ups and screen printings of his stuff which is definitely art first and foremost, while sometimes he has to delve too deep into the ironic t-shirt business. So for every few projects he gets to do for himself, he also gets access to people at places like Hot Topic. It hasn't corrupted him yet.

So, yes, places like urbn have taken things a bit too far. But the nice thing about t-shirt making is that with limited funds you can set up something yourself to promote or wear. Good things for artists to do to make a few more bucks or get people to see work that you do...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:19 / 05.04.05

I used to wear (occasionally) a T-Shirt reading "I Hate The Beatles", with a nice, ZX81-style graphic of the band. It was very badly made, and didn't fit properly (being too small), but someobody gave it to me, and yes, it was from a charity shop.
When I had to explain to my alcohol counsellor why my style of dress was all so "aggressive"- "see, it says HATE and you've got that pointy spiky tattoo on your arm"- it all got a bit weird. Especially at the point where I said "and I love the Beatles".
We must have thrashed the subject around for a good ten minutes, and never came to a conclusion. I don't think I've worn it since.

But the strange, and relevant thing, is that since then just looking at it makes me feel funny. It's like it's turned into this big vortex of confusion which hurts my brain. It's like someone's taken all the signifiers and signifieds and bunged them all in a blender. It's weird. It makes me feel autistic.

13:44 / 15.04.05

Late to the party...

I can never figure out where self-effacing irony spins back on itself to be ironically self-effacing... hence the reason I happily wear a t-shirt that says "Nothing is any good if other people like it" (and no, that's not me in the photo - either one!)

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