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Jesus says relax

Mordant Carnival

19:05 / 06.08.01

As has been previously stated, I am a terrible godless wretch. I apologise immediately and unreservedly to all the readers who are going to find this offensive.

Having been raised in a Catholic frame of reference until the fatal age of seven, I find the forms and symbols of my baptised faith incredibly resonant and beautiful, even though I cannot share the ethos that goes with them.

I'm therefore looking into the sybolism of various saints and other figures, with a veiw to invoking them as part of my magickal workings. I wonder if anyone has any comment on this (beyond the obvious "Carnival Burn In Hell" sort of thing.)

19:19 / 06.08.01

Most, if not all, Xtian saints are permutation of deities worshipped in a particular area. The "Histories and Lives of the Saints" are, for the most part, garbage.

(all the fun threads happen when it's time for Ierne to go home...

)

St Brigid is the Irish deity of the same name, as St David is the Welsh/Cymraeg Dewi or Dwr. St Demetra is Demeter, St Josaphat is (I think...) a dreadful mucking-up of the word Bodhisatva. The method of St Sebastian's death is very similar to Cuchulain's. I wish I could think of more examples... there's a ton.

There's also the various religions of the African diaspora that conflate Xtian saints with West African deities (Vodou, Santería, Candomble...)

Me, I prefer to take it to the source and work directly with godforms (which is definitely not the same as slavishly believing in many gods instead of one). But saints can be interesting too.

19:28 / 06.08.01

I've done a bit of magic using the Lord's Prayer as a way to meditate. The purpose of these meditations is to reliev myself of certain feelings that do me harm, like, say, wrath, envy, greed, lust (not sure my definition of "lust" agrees with others), and so on. I have also meditated over the cross.

This has in fact been the most successful use of magical practises I've ever done. In fact, it has been the only method to bring me near perfect results every time.

But I haven't ever used the Christian model to bring me things (money, a job, and so forth). I haven't ever used any saints (raised protestant), but I know that some polytheistic cultures that have been introduced to Catholicism have done similar things.

The problem I have with using IHVH or Jesus beyond the kind of thing mentioned above is that I can't convince myself that it's appropriate. I mean, the unified God doesn't represent, for me personally, "lower" magic.

I am curious what you use the saints for.

Mordant Carnival

20:39 / 06.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
Most, if not all, Xtian saints are permutation of deities worshipped in a particular area.

Indeed. As a good little god-botherer-turned goddess-botherer turned I-can't-be-bothereder, I'm well aware of all this. Hey, I've read Robert Graves. I get a twofer.

The thing that gets me is that the mackerel-snappers (being, as near as dammit, pagans) have a saint for every flipping thing imaginable up to and including hopless causes (St. Jude, fact fans.)

See where I'm heading with this?

Mordant Carnival

20:45 / 06.08.01

I'm going to come clean here. I like expressionless. Expressionless is smart, open and sensitive, and I'm terribly, terribly sorry that almost eveything I'm going to say in this post is going to be nasty and offensive to a cool and groovy Barbelite.

Soz, dude.

09:00 / 07.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:

...
See where I'm heading with this?

Er... no. Is this supposed to be about Catholics looking down upon magicians?

09:04 / 07.08.01

See, sorry. I just thought it was about using Christian symbolism in magic.

I also was under the impression that, while many Christians who believe in magic think it is a sin, I never got the impression that using Christian symbolism in the process made it considerably worse. You sound as though you have been recently critisized for the idea. So maybe I misread the first post.

Mordant Carnival

09:04 / 07.08.01

Erm. Not recently criticised. Just generally criticised.

My point was more to do with the idea that since a nice convenient saint is availiable for almst every occasion, why not use'em? Most of them are pagan deities in Catholic drag anyhow.

I notice that a lot of magickians who are quite happy to invoke Pan, Shiva, Mickey Mouse, or the bloke off the Mr Muscle adverts should the occasion demand it, fight shy of using Xtian imagery.

How come?

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Mordant Carnival ]

09:04 / 07.08.01

What would you use Xtian for? I don't know a bit about these gods or saints really.

09:04 / 07.08.01

I don't know how co-operative various christian saints and angels would be with petty human magicians. Christian dogma is fairly anti-magic (or at least anti-magic being used by humans) and I think if you did conjure one up, they would just spout a lots of crap about how you shouldn't be doing this. If you use catholic imagery, your going to get a catholic dogma spirit.

However, I think Jesus or St Thomas might be up for contact. They seem a bit more level headed than the rest. Jesus because I think he'd see the whole catholicism/christianity thing as a bit of a bad ironic joke. And St Thomas because he seems like quite an interesting existentialist, 2000 years ahead of his time.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:04 / 07.08.01

What about Simon Magus? Wouldn't he be pissed about being relegated to the apocrypha? I'm sure he'd be up for all manner of ethereal bastardry.

If you were going to use saints for it, then I guess it'd pay to just be a bit choosy. Would the "patron saint of x" fact be pretty important in choosing which to use, too?

10:20 / 07.08.01

quote: I'm going to come clean here. I like expressionless. Expressionless is smart, open and sensitive, and I'm terribly, terribly sorry that almost eveything I'm going to say in this post is going to be nasty and offensive to a cool and groovy Barbelite.

Blush. Looks bashful. Aww… shucks.

Don’t worry, pal – I’m reading with interest. And I’m pretty hard to offend.

As far as the results of using Christian symbolism/saints/angels… you’re probably better off with these guys than using demons (which is just a dumb, dumb, dumb thing to do IMHO). Sorry if that offends any of you circle and candle types. As none of us can say whether you’ll make genuine contact or have an evening of fun/nasty head games, it’s pretty hard predict the outcome.

I’d definitely hesitate short of saying this is a considered response. Keep chatting, I’ll keep reading.

10:22 / 07.08.01

Nice thread title: Jesus swinging his hips in a gay club (or is it just me reading it as a Frankie Goes to Hollywood reference?). Now that's an image I wish a few more Christians would consider!

11:19 / 07.08.01

Ah yes...Jesus in leather...not too far from Dionysos in his buckskins, eh?

SMatthewStolte: The particular prayer you mention has a certain amount of Kabbalistic symbolism, especially the "Kingdom-Power-Glory" part. Israel Regardie has more to say on the subject in The Middle Pillar.

11:31 / 07.08.01

See where I'm heading with this? – Mordant Carnival

I know of lots and lots of Xtians who light candles to saints and pray to saints and petition saints and wear talismans dedicated to saints and leave offerings to saints...and when one makes it very clear to them that they are indulging in a bit of the old hocus-pocus they get all

HEAVENS NO!!!! (genuflection)

And THAT is fucking annoying.

Is that where you're headed?

z3r0

12:13 / 07.08.01

During slavery, here in Brasil, slaves could not worship their Orishas, so they would bury their statues on the ground and place on the top a catholic statue. They were actually worshipping the orisha underground, but no one ever noticed the difference.
Other thing they did was to worship their deities disguised as Catholic saints, for instance, untill today St. George is worshipped as "Ogun" (I think this is the name)

14:14 / 07.08.01

quote: ...and when one makes it very clear to them that they are indulging in a bit of the old hocus-pocus they get all

HEAVENS NO!!!! (genuflection)

And THAT is fucking annoying.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think Christians who think they’re not involved in mysticism are robbing themselves of something powerful.

I wouldn’t pray to saints, personally. Who was it who said that they couldn’t see the point in contacting the souls of those past, simply because there’s no evidence that the dead are any wiser than the living? It was probably GKC. I don’t use items or artifacts, either: not even the cross. When I meditate, it’s more often that not on the nature of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit – either that or we’ll have a nice normal chat. Saying that, my drums often form a kind of focus for my spiritual interaction with God. Won’t bore you here – read Bang the Drum.

15:29 / 07.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
Erm. Not recently criticised. Just generally criticised.

My point was more to do with the idea that since a nice convenient saint is availiable for almst every occasion, why not use'em? Most of them are pagan deities in Catholic drag anyhow.

I notice that a lot of magickians who are quite happy to invoke Pan, Shiva, Mickey Mouse, or the bloke off the Mr Muscle adverts should the occasion demand it, fight shy of using Xtian imagery.

How come?

My grandmother talked to St. Anthony regularly. He'd find lost objects for her.
I've got an Eleggua up by my door. He's St. Anthony too.
I think if they're doing "magick" and they're using the Christian/Catholic model, then they're just labelled "mystics." Same behavioral ingredients, slightly different preparations, very different packaging.

09:35 / 08.08.01

quote:Originally posted by grant:

I think if they're doing "magick" and they're using the Christian/Catholic model, then they're just labelled "mystics." Same behavioral ingredients, slightly different preparations, very different packaging.

In cosmic trigger R.A.W. talks about how he contacted the same deities through different metaphysical models. Thus the virgin mary is also nuit of egypt is also the female embodiment of mescilato, the south american peyote spirit.

11:50 / 08.08.01

Thus the virgin mary is also nuit of egypt is also the female embodiment of mescilato, the south american peyote spirit. – better the Fool you know

I concur. I've found that dealing with Shiva, Dionysos and Osiris I am getting the exact same vibe with different cultural overlays. Also with Morrígan, Anath and Kali.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]

13:57 / 08.08.01

Oh, and pertinent to the saints point, here's a site you might not have run into yet: Patron Saints

12:08 / 10.08.01

quote:Originally posted by better the Fool you know:
However, I think Jesus or St Thomas might be up for contact.

Contact you say, baby? Show me the money, first. C'mon! Show me the money!

12:32 / 10.08.01

Hmmm...yeah, pass the collection plate.