quote:But the main gist of my entire post was against the general trend of condescension towards a particular branch of magick that was permeating the thread. I was especially irritated because I felt that I was repeating myself
Now that you clarify what your actual problem was I agree with you whole heartedly on that, my post was never meant to be condescending towards anyones magickal preferences. All I was trying to do was list a few of the questionable attitudes attached to chaos magic that rarely get brought up, albiet in a sarky manner.
Yes, I was being willfully contentious, and I apologise for that because it seems my actual comments have been interpreted totally out of proportion.
quote:You make it sound as if all you did was "criticize certain prevelant tendencies" when actually you came off as tarring us all with the same brush. When you had the chance to say "okay, I didn't mean you guys," you instead turned the knife a little more.
Yeah, OK then, I admit to that as well. I should have clarified at the outset that the percieved tone of condecension in my posts wasnt aimed at anyone on here, and I was just raising an issue.
However by this point I'd read Ierne's post, which contained a high percentage of quotes from me and then finished with some very abusive closing lines. It read to me like a personal attack accusing me of a whole load of attitudes that weren't actually in anything I'd written. I responded in a manner that most people would if they felt they'd been called an 'ass' on a public forum without much justification. Granted, I was being contentious with many of my remarks, but I certainly wasn't personally insulting or attacking anyone.
Ierne says the post in question wasnt specifically directed at me, so I'm happy with that and we'll let the matter drop.
quote: I also think that your wide-eyed "what's everyone so wound up about?" attitude is disingenuous. You know- or you should know- why people are reacting in a hurt and aggrieved manner.
I really don't actually. I'd appreciate it if you pointed out exactly what I've written that came over as condescending to people on this board. Not counting my response to Ierne's post, because that was very much a reaction to my perceived grieviance at being misinterpreted and insulted on a public forum. I know I was being unneccassarily out of order with some of my remarks there, but that's just because I was writing under the impression that the guy had just taken a cheap shot at me.
I'm assuming that the inital quote that got everyone riled was this one.
quote: One of the annoying things about the CM current is the whole 'leather pants and fake tan' brigade. The Chaoist tendancy to view themselves as a kind of leather clad tattoed army of evolved beings who are inherently 'different' and 'superior' to the lowly non-magician. It leads to big groups of magicians running around together like a pierced up self help group, each one re-inforcing each others delusions of grandeur. Each one spouting the same mish mash of Robert Anton Wilson, Genesis P Orridge, Pete Caroll and others.
And I do stand by it. Until the mud slinging started I never wanted to tar anyone on here with that brush, and if I did so later it was only because of my own percieved grieviance. Actually barbelith is the only occult web community that is refreshingly free of the elitist and exclusionist attitudes that we all essentially seem to be in opposition to.
The tendencies I referred to above are what I personally percieve as one of the flaws/pitfalls of the chaos magic current, which I do think is worthy of discussion.
I've noticed that it's quite easy to slip into some of these attitudes when working from the chaos paradigm. There's a certain tendancy towards unspoken superiority over both other peoples paths (Wicca bashing etc..) and the common man (unevolved sheep, common herd, etc..) that quite often manifests in CM circles. Mordant makes reference to "the exclusionist vibe that I've encountered elsewhere" and it's really this phenomena that I was attempting to criticise.
Practitioners of chaos magic, quite probably due to it's post-modern methodology, freedom of belief, and adoption of scientific models (chaos mathematics, quantum theory, memetics, et al) sometimes display a tendency towards unspoken superiority over other more traditional paths. There's the meme that CM is more relevant to the modern world, as opposed to other paths which are more like historical re-enactment. An elitist position which nevertheless might have a shred of truth to it.
But sometimes not always, as it's totally dependent upon the practitioner in question , chaos magicians can fall into the trap of not really getting to the heart of things, for example having a very light engagement with aspects from a variety of spiritual traditions, but not really engaging fully with the mysteries of any of them. There's also a tendency towards what I think of as magickal tourism. And I'm really basing this on myself and my own experiences of working within the chaos paradigm as much as I am anything else. Magickal tourism in the sense of spending six months working with the runes, done that, let's dip into yoga for a year, OK got that under my belt, what next... That's an exaggerated example, but it is a definite pitfall that I think we all have to be aware of when working from a CM perspective.
The people I was criticising in the above quote are the contingent who flirt with the above pitfall but also display the elitist "we have the best post-modern futurist path" vibe and affect a 'bad ass chaote' pose without much in the way of justification.
Also, over the last few years I've noticed Chaos Magic almost becoming a 'magickal tradition' in itself as opposed to a working methodology or approach. Various elements such as the use of sigils, servitors, the chaosphere, ouranian barbaric, the vortex rite, et al seem to have solidified themselves in to an actual tradition almost as clear cut and defined by it's practices as Wicca or Asatru. Which is another thing I find a little questionable, particularly when the elements of creativity and personal invention are excised from CM in favour of an established canon. Which in my mind seems to go against all the aspects of CM that I find appealing.
These were the tendencies and pitfalls of CM that I wanted to put under the microscope. I'll admit to not doing it particularly well in the above quoted paragraph, as time has shown, but before I had any chance to elaborate, I became caught up in retaliating to what I percieved as an uncalled for personal attack from Ierne.
I do think these things can be discussed and criticised without accusations of elitism coming up. The pitfalls of chaos magic are as open to me as they are to anyone else on this board, and although much of my own work is shamanic, I'm still very much operating from the chaos magick perspective. I should have posted the disclaimer that I'm as much under the microscope as a Chaos Magician as anyone else who might be reading my criticisms, but I didnt, I'm posting from work and hurriedly dashed off a few thoughts and opinions tacked on to the end of a post about something different. Sorry. But this is where I'm coming from with this and I hope this post clarifies my position somewhat.
I see a definite distinction between bashing other peoples magickal paths and taking a critical look at certain attitudes that often manifest amongst people who follow said paths. Granted, we're all headed towards the same goal and it's detrimental for us to be squabbling amongst each other, but this doesn't negate the need for taking a critical look at the culture of said paths and the wider implications thereof.
Other examples beyond the chaos magic thing I've already gone into might be the occasional accusations of fascist/racist tendencies within the Northern Trad community, or the very vehement accusations of Cultural Imperialism that the Voudon community levels at non-ordained westerners appropriation of elements from their religion.
These are all subjects worthy of discussion and it's not the same thing as bashing other peoples individual magickal preferences. A magical path also exists as a distinct subculture and is therefore a perfectly valid subject for reasoned criticism. Which, believe it or not, is what my initial post was attempting to address. I made an error in trying to raise these issues in such a provocative manner.
quote: I'm not pissed- I'm just sad. The Barbelith Magick krew seemed pretty free of the exclusionist vibe that I've encountered elsewhere. I thought we were all a bit bigger than this, and it's a nasty blow to have been wrong, at least about some individuals
As I've attempted to make clear in this post, I have been misinterpreted here. You are both reading a subtext into my posts which was not intended. My badly judged attempt at using provocative comments to stir up some criticism of Chaos Magic as a cultural phenomena, came off spectacularly badly. I certainly wasnt levelling these remarks at anyone present, if you look at my post I prefaced my comments with "one of the annoying things about the chaos magic current" then proceeded to list them. This is not the same as "All you chaos magicians are like this:" and the fact that you chose to interpret it so and assume I was talking about you, personally, is as woefully mistaken as my own assumption that Ierne was dissing me.
If there are any further comments in my initial post which you interpreted as elitist, exclusionist or just plain offensive, please point them out and I'll be happy to explain where I was at with them. Chances are that my position on the subject is not as far fetched as you might think and I'm really not the mustachioed villain that you've painted me as. Not all the time anyway.
quote:Mordant: I just now saw the "comedy magus" comment in the Community thread.
Well again, believe it or not, my remark about 'comedy maguses' was actually intended to soften things a bit (!), it was supposed to be a light hearted term to summarise the particular contingent I was criticising. I hadnt at that point, entirely twigged that the pair of you thought I was talking about you. I wasn't. Neither was I bashing CM as a 'comedy' path. I've just explained at length what my original position was (and still is) on all of this, and I hope that you've accepted that and perhaps might be prepared to discuss some of the issues raised without recourse to our mutual bitch slapping.
quote:Perfect shaman material, eh?
A bit uncalled for and personal, but I'll let it slide as emotions were high on both sides and I'm genuinely attempting a reconciliation of our viewpoints here. |
) manner, if you are interested.