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Democrat Party Rethinking Abortion

 
  

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ibis the being
17:36 / 23.12.04
From the LA Times this morning -

Thu Dec 23, 7:55 AM ET
WASHINGTON — After long defining itself as an undisputed defender of abortion rights, the Democratic Party is suddenly locked in an internal struggle over whether to redefine its position to appeal to a broader array of voters.

The fight is a central theme of the contest to head the Democratic National Committee, particularly between two leading candidates: former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, who supports abortion rights, and former Indiana Rep. Tim Roemer, an abortion foe who argues that the party cannot rebound from its losses in the November election unless it shows more tolerance on one of society's most emotional conflicts.

Roemer is running with the encouragement of the party's two highest-ranking members of Congress, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco and incoming Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada. Dean, a former presidential candidate, is popular with the party's liberal wing.

If Roemer were to succeed Terry McAuliffe as Democratic chairman in the Feb. 10 vote, the party long viewed as the guardian of abortion rights would suddenly have two antiabortion advocates at its helm. Reid, too, opposes abortion and once voted for a nonbinding resolution opposing Roe vs. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion.

Party leaders say their support for preserving the landmark ruling will not change. But they are looking at ways to soften the hard line, such as promoting adoption and embracing parental notification requirements for minors and bans on late-term abortions. Their thinking reflects a sense among strategists that Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry and the party's congressional candidates lost votes because the GOP conveyed a more compelling message on social issues.


Is this the level of conviction Democratic politicians have on our issues? If so, it's no wonder they're getting beat by Republicans so often. God, Rove struts his "moral issues" and they all just fold.

Meanwhile,
A Reuters News report for 2003-JAN-23 summarized what it called a "new" ABC News - Washington Post poll of American adults which showed:
*A majority -- 57% -- favor abortion rights in all or most cases; this compares to 59% in 2001.
*69% oppose abortion procedures in which the fetus is partially delivered before being aborted


This appears to be a case of the opposition party, NOT public opinion, dictating the Democratic stance on an important issue - which I find alarming. What about those 57% who favor abortion rights in all or most circumstances? Will they/we not have representation in the government when both parties take the same position on reproductive rights?

Is this a colossal folly on the part of the Democratic Party, or a wise strategic move? And even if it is a good move to garner more votes, does that make it okay?
 
 
LykeX
17:56 / 23.12.04
First of all, it's wrong no matter what and the people who suggested it should go join the republicans where they will obviously be more at ease.
Second, it won't help. The people who decide who to vote for based on the abortion issue will never be persuaded to vote for the democrats, since they probably also care very much for such things as banning evolution, banning sex education, banning thought in general.

I feel I may have exaggerated a bit. But my opinion still stands. To convince any significant number of voters to change their vote to democratic, would take a major rewrite of all democratic ideals. Anything the democrats can do, the republicans can do better.

It will only be a sliding slope. In Denmark (my country) the Social Democrats tried to counter the Danish People's Party's immigration-hostile politics by moving more to the right themselves. The result: the DPP moved further to the right, and are now the 3rd largest party.
Furthermore, if the Social Democrats now move back to their original position, they will be seen as being soft on immigrants and lose even more votes.

I predict that if the democrats change their view on abortion rights, it will only result in them becoming completely irrelevant.
 
 
Hieronymus
18:08 / 23.12.04
Roemer is a joke. He's indicative of exactly the kind of watered-down liberal politics that will continue to choke the life out of this party if he's allowed any position of leadership. In addition to his abortion rights stance, he's on record as voting to privatize Social Security. There's room for him in the party, but I'll be damned if he should be the DNC chair (The party's only chance for survival lies with either Dean or Rosenberg).

It's bad enough we have guys like Harry Reid running the congressional ship. Roemer cannot be allowed to topple the progressive platform in another tired politically safe effort to 'win votes'. We've tried the wishy washy centrist route. And we keep losing elections. And they'll continue to black our eyes until we have ferocious and unapologetic liberal leadership that can present our stance effectively.

With Democrats like these guys, who needs Republicans.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:38 / 23.12.04
It will only be a sliding slope.

Yup.
We in the UK now have a "Labour" party which compromised all its principles to make itself electable. Result- a centre-right government calling itself the left, thus pushing the goalposts ever farther rightwards.
Fuck, they not only get outflanked on the left by the LibDems (supposedly the "centrists"), but we have a country in which Ken Clarke can describe himself as "the last left-wing Home Secretary this country had" and be telling the truth.

If a party won't fight for what it believes in, then I really don't see the point of its existence at all.
 
 
Jati no Rei
09:14 / 16.12.06
Yes indeed. As a US resident, I've felt for a while that both major parties marched in lock step on far too many issues, and to see even more where they agree is unsettling. Poor Deluded little me, back in 2000, actually uttered the phrase: "maybe it's good Bush got elected, so we can fire up the left again and get a real liberal as President." no, it wasn't a good thing at all. The country as a whole seems to have shifted to the right on far to many issues, or at least their elected representatives have, which is really the important part. This most recent election was a mild glimmer of hope, but far to many of the new Democrats are very liberal at all on most issues I feel strongly about for me to feel comfortable. Unless we get a good liberal-progressive spokesman, I agree that the Democratic party will only become more watered down.
So that begs the question: Who?
 
 
SMS
03:08 / 18.12.06
Here are some polling data

The top poll shows a substantial number of Democrats — 25% — sympathize more with Right-to-lifers than Pro-choice movements. But that number doesn't seem to reflect an absolute division among Democrats, since an LA Times poll from 2003 shows 53% of Democrats support outlawing partial birth abortion.
 
 
Lyons
23:39 / 19.12.06
As a former Democrat who left the party in large measure because of cultural issues, I hope that the trend away from reflexive support of Roe continues. From what I've heard from people in the party they're convinced that abortion is costing them more votes than it's getting them, and for people like me -- who favor national health insurance, steep taxation of the wealthy, more aggressive environmental and corporate regulation, and oppose the death penalty -- the Democrtaic party's recognition that people who want to protect the unborn deserve a seat or two at the table can only be a good thing.
 
 
diz
06:27 / 20.12.06
I'm not sure, but that may be the first time I've ever seen an unabashedly anti-abortion post on Barbelith. I think I may be horrified.
 
 
COG
07:32 / 20.12.06
I think we're all anti-abortion, but also want the woman involved to have the final say, or choice, in what happens to their own bodies.

Letting ourselves be described as pro-abortion is playing into the hands of the right wing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:16 / 20.12.06
There's an argument the other way, which is that being scared to say you're pro-abortion, and always going out of your way to couch your arguments in terms of how regrettable abortion is, is playing into the hands of the anti-abortion lobby. Because you start from a position of having conceded so much rhetorical ground.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:06 / 20.12.06
There's an interesting article by Zoe Williams about this - and I never thought I'd say that.

I have. I'm not ashamed.

There's a follow-up, which summarises the view succinctly and well, I think:

The prevailing attitude these days seems to be that abortion is state-sanctioned murder and we put up with it because if we didn't, women would have them in back alleys anyway. It is the lesser of two evils, therefore, and as such, must be cloaked in silence, since whichever way you look at it, it still has an evil at its core. This line has taken hold because it is the least controversial way of supporting the right: so an MP standing up and saying "Women need this right, because otherwise they will put their health at risk having illegal terminations" will not find the pro-life lobby instantly rearing up against them, petitioning their constituents with what a murderer he or she is. If, however, an MP were to stand up and say "I am pro-choice because I do not consider this to be murder. I do not consider it to be evil. I do not consider a foetus which a woman has a one in three chance of involuntarily rejecting anyway to be a viable life unless she deems it so. I do not buy this craven sentimentality about the unborn, this pseudo-spiritual cleanliness we ascribe to it. In fact, it makes me sick", then votes will be lost. In other words, there are no votes to be won supporting abortion in an ideologically honest way, and lots to be lost.

Personally, I am neither pro nor anti-abortion. I've never had one, I am in no danger of needing one. I am pro women having the right to have abortions. Nothing has convinced me that those who would seek to deprive women of the right to control their own fertility in this and a number of other ways are other than misguided, actively cretinous or morally repulsive.

However, there appear to be people out there who would vote for the Democrats if only they were a bit more socially repressive - I don't know what other cultural issues Lyons is unhappy. There are also people who are sufficiently easily persuaded by right-wing rhetoric that they unconsciously parrot meaningless bollock phrases like "partial-birth abortion". Basically, there are a lot of people who are socially or sexually a bit backwards, but who might nonetheless be prepared to support the Democrats, and thus broadly possibly nudge the US away from its current course, if only by a few degrees, if the right noises were made. After all, the whole point here is that these people are gullible - so, for example, there is no mention of overturning Roe vs Wade in that article. There is mention only that at one point Harry Reid voted for a nonbinding resolution opposing Roe vs Wade. That's just sleight of hand, really

However, it's very difficult to negotiate that space. First, because people who are misguided, cretinous or repulsive are also unprincipled in their pursuit of their goals, and people who are socially or sexually backward are often ethically backward also. If you invite them to your table, you can't really get too upset if they wee in the salad bowl. Second, if you turned up to dinner to find that your seat was adjacent to a doctrinaire nutter with two tiny feet attached to their lapel, you probably wouldn't want to visit again. If the Democrats do start weaseling seriously on abortion, their socially liberal supporters, and the socially liberal and libertarian population of the US unattached to a political party, will give up on them in disgust and simply stop voting. And where would the new votes come from? The Christian Right? Devout Catholics? Is there really a big enough group of people who, like Lyons, would vote Democrat if it weren't for "cultural issues" - and if so, what else will they want to be won over, and who would the Dems alienate in offering it to them?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:25 / 20.12.06
I'm pro-abortion. Abortion is a method of emergency contraception that's saved a lot of women (and children) from a life in poverty. It effectively ended the status of women as true second class citizens, people who got sent to the nuns out of shame, who were confined to a life governed by an accident. To have no conception of why abortion has been the one thing that has allowed equality is to misunderstand the last century absolutely and furthermore it really changed life for women at the bottom of the social ladder rather than the top, which is hugely significant. That's why the democrats shouldn't change their stance and it's why we shouldn't be scared of saying we're pro-abortion and not simply pro-choice.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:32 / 20.12.06
To clarify: when I say I am neither pro- nor anti- abortion, I mean it in the same way that I neither pro- nor anti- penicillin, or desalination. These are technologies and processes. I am pro the free availability to women of abortion services to provide termination where it is needful, which as far as I can tell is in almost every situation that it might currently be sought.
 
 
Ex
10:54 / 20.12.06
But they are looking at ways to soften the hard line, such as promoting adoption and embracing parental notification requirements for minors and bans on late-term abortions.

Among all the other things that suck, it frustrates me that these thigns are being lumped together. I think there's a world of difference between supporting those who might want to continue unplanned pregnancies, and reducing access to abortion.
For example, I'd love to see more people consider adoption when they want to have kids, and I'd like to lessen the stigma around having one's child adopted. Not because I think abortion is a necessary evil and people would flock to that option, but because I think it would benefit people generally to widen these choices.

However, it's infuriating if that kind of change of attitude will be encouraged as a partner to reduction of abortion access, as a sop to people who would prefer a ban. I can't think that such an arrangement will allow people to make an informed choice in the best possible mental state - as Joe Damage-I-You says, you've already conceded the ideological ground. There's far less chance of the people involved being seen as, and seeing themselves as, working together to produce a fulfilling alternative to birth families. And far more chance of them being stuck in the roles of fallen woman, charitable righteous family and rescued bastard.

That may sound a bit vague, but I'm thinking it also probably has a concrete impact on what kind of people are accepted as adoptive parents, what form of adoption is chosen (with or without birth-parent contact, etc).

Everything about this angers me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:22 / 20.12.06
Diz: A poster known khorosho was pro forced pregnancy as well. I guess you missed the Babygate post, where he hotlinked to several images of aborted fetuses. Encouragingly, though, most people objected to his position and he was widely regarded as a troll. I think the board as a whole retains a rational and humanitarian attitude to the concept of forcing women to go through unwanted pregnancy.
 
 
SMS
13:57 / 20.12.06
Second, if you turned up to dinner to find that your seat was adjacent to a doctrinaire nutter with two tiny feet attached to their lapel, you probably wouldn't want to visit again.

Do you mean that one would not wish to sit next to someone who actually brings up hir anti-abortion position at the dinner table (given that this makes for rather unpleasant dinner conversation), or that the mere fact that someone would wear two tiny feet on hir lapel is proof of such a heinous and backward mind that the very thought of eating with hir is so completely repulsive that one would never permit it to happen more than once?
 
 
nighthawk
14:05 / 20.12.06
Is that a joke? I think Haus was using the metaphor to outline the dangers of courting people one finds ideologically repugnant for short-term political gains -- not debating the constituency of the ideal dinner party. That's why his post continues:

If the Democrats do start weaseling seriously on abortion, their socially liberal supporters, and the socially liberal and libertarian population of the US unattached to a political party, will give up on them in disgust and simply stop voting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:09 / 20.12.06
In case it needs saying - yes, nighthawk is right.
 
 
Ticker
14:35 / 20.12.06
I've got a pro-choice Republican in my family who swears to me up and down that it will never become illegal. I've sworn to kick said person in the ass because that is such an arrogant misguided view especially considering what just went down in South Dakota.

In fact as I live in New England most of the Republicans I know are pro-choice/pro-child who are freaked out by the religious right's influence on the party. Many of them just voted Dem in the recent elections because of it. So if the Democrats swing more to the right on these issues they are likely to lose the vote of flexible Republicans more than courting any away.

I'm prochoice as I would never tell a person they could not/or must reproduce. I'll support the decision of the people directly involved even if I would not make the same choice for myself. I believe the stigma surrounding abortion is a terrible and awful burden to place on someone who has had to make a major choice. Other cultures don't require a veil of shame around it even by the supporters as ours appears to. As long as we stay ashamed we are supporting the repression of this choice and allowing social pressure to influence our political parties.

there's a great book on Japanese Buddhist approach to abortion called Liquid Life
 
 
SMS
14:58 / 20.12.06
Haus (and nighthawk),

Yes, it (sort of) needed saying. I knew that the post wasn't about a dinner party, and I got the basic point of the dangers of courting different people. But it sounded like the dinner party reference presupposed a rejection (in the way that the human body rejects foreign matter) of individuals who are annti-abotion.

I got the rest of the post. I'll take the bewildered attitude that someone could be so obscenely stupid as to have to ask the question as an answer leaning towards tolerance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 20.12.06
Oh, I did that too, I think:

Nothing has convinced me that those who would seek to deprive women of the right to control their own fertility in this and a number of other ways are other than misguided, actively cretinous or morally repulsive.

However, there appear to be people out there who would vote for the Democrats if only they were a bit more socially repressive - I don't know what other cultural issues Lyons is unhappy. There are also people who are sufficiently easily persuaded by right-wing rhetoric that they unconsciously parrot meaningless bollock phrases like "partial-birth abortion". Basically, there are a lot of people who are socially or sexually a bit backwards, but who might nonetheless be prepared to support the Democrats, and thus broadly possibly nudge the US away from its current course, if only by a few degrees, if the right noises were made.
 
 
Lyons
15:09 / 20.12.06
Are people really horrified that someone sees humanity in terms of potentiality and becoming, rather than as a static binary state?

If pregnancies occured spontaneously I'd be much more sympathetic to the pro-abortion rights position. As best I know, however, most pregnancies result from a conscious choice to engage in behavior in which the risk of pregnancy is known. Forgive me, but just as I have a problem with corporations shifting the costs of their behavior onto innocent third parties, so, too, do I have a problem with someone who has knowingly engaged in a behavior shifting the costs of that behavior onto another innocent third party, irrespective of whether that third party is yet capable of advanced mental states or has a functioning autonomic nervous system.

As for the more political side of the issue, it strikes me that if Roe were to go the way of the dodo, it would serve as a huge benefit to American politics, as it would -- I hope -- eliminate abortion as anational issue and take some of the knife fight aspects out of presidental campaigns. At present, the U.S.'s entire national political terrain is being distorted in large measure by a Supreme Court decision that tells the American people that they aren't to be trusted with a significant policy-making decision. If people want abortion to be legal, they can effect that result through the political, and not judicial, process: I won't like it, but I would at least acknowledge it as legitimate, and not an exercise at judicial overreach that's hamstrung both parties for over thirty years.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:15 / 20.12.06
Lyons - have you ever actually had sex? With a woman?

(You may wish to respond that is is very presumptuous of me to assume that you are a nominally heterosexual man. It is not. You are. Question stands)
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
15:21 / 20.12.06
Are people really horrified that someone sees humanity in terms of potentiality and becoming

Yes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:29 / 20.12.06
Back on the politics, such as they are. Although the virginal is the political.

Forgive me, but just as I have a problem with corporations shifting the costs of their behavior onto innocent third parties, so, too, do I have a problem with someone who has knowingly engaged in a behavior shifting the costs of that behavior onto another innocent third party, irrespective of whether that third party is yet capable of advanced mental states or has a functioning autonomic nervous system.

So, you would agree that abortion should be available for people who are pregnant through rape, and presumably also people who are unaware that they risk pregnancy - including anyone who has employed some form of contraception? If that is the case, then your position is already significantly more liberal than that of the opponents of abortion in South Dakota. It is even, one might say, suspiciously liberal. You would no doubt be accused of seeking to undermine the cause by inserting stipulations which would limit the ability of law enforcement to prevent future murther.

Alternatively, you do oppose the legalisation of abortion as a consequence of rape, in which case either the behaviour your hypothetical pregnant woman was knowingly indulging in was having a vagina, or there is rather more to your position than you first claim. If this is the case, I would like to suspend judgement on whether or not I should forgive you until this is clarified.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 20.12.06
Yes

Hang on, Jake - has anyone expressed horror at that? I don't think they have. Which is why I'm a bit confused about this diversion. Could you show me where horror was expressed at someone seeing humanity in terms of potentiality and becoming?
 
 
Lyons
15:33 / 20.12.06
Harmony Haus. Is this the part where you slap my ass with a towel, or where we compare tales of tail? This is a high school locker room, yes? To continue with the motif, and to answer your question, your mom says "hi."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:42 / 20.12.06
I don't know why my mother was hanging around your seance, but that's not quite my point, Lyons. My point was that if you have, as a heterosexual man, had sex with a woman, you have knowingly participated in a situation the possible upshot of which was the destruction of, according to your lights, a potential human being. That is, an act of potential murther. The fact that you, personally, would not have to have the cells removed from your body does not actually make any difference to this - your penis is an accessory to murther either way. The only defence, presumably, is either that you never have and never will have sex with a woman, or that you will only have sex with women whom you feel confident of physically restraining until such time as they give birth, lest they should seek as a result of your actions, knowingly undertaken, to procure a termination.

You could improve your chances, of course, by restricting your interests to the post-menopausal or deceased (my mother says hi), but in at least the first of these cases, miracles have been known to happen, and sex with the dead is often frowned upon in polite society - although whether more or less so than abortion probably depends on your peer group.
 
 
Lyons
15:46 / 20.12.06
Or, I only have sex with women who would not have an abortion if they became pregnant. Fairly obviously.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 20.12.06
But you can't be sure of that, Lyons, unless a) they are dependent on you and you alone to fulfill some mobility requirement, b) they are mentally incapable of understanding the concept of abortion or c) they are unable medically to conceive a child. Otherwise, I'm afraid that you are relying on the word of a woman, and if women were reliable, by your lights, they would not have to be legally prevented from seeking abortions.

So, which is it? Immobile, uncomprehending, incapable? This ties into my question above, incidentally...
 
 
Lyons
16:04 / 20.12.06
For a guy posting on a postmodernist website your thinking's awfully pinched. We're done.
 
 
HCE
16:11 / 20.12.06
Promise?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:47 / 20.12.06
OH NOES! MY REALITY TUNNELS! THEY ARE BEING STRETCHED BEYOND ENDURANCE BY LYONS INEPTLY ADVANCING THE VIRTUES OF A MEANS OF CONTROL OVER WOMEN'S BODIES THAT IS MENTIONED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT! IT IS SUCH NEW AND DANGEROUS THINKING! MY BRANE!

Unfortunately, this means that Lyons has not yet answered, or apparently read, this:

So, you would agree that abortion should be available for people who are pregnant through rape, and presumably also people who are unaware that they risk pregnancy - including anyone who has employed some form of contraception? If that is the case, then your position is already significantly more liberal than that of the opponents of abortion in South Dakota. It is even, one might say, suspiciously liberal. You would no doubt be accused of seeking to undermine the cause by inserting stipulations which would limit the ability of law enforcement to prevent future murther.

Alternatively, you do oppose the legalisation of abortion as a consequence of rape, in which case either the behaviour your hypothetical pregnant woman was knowingly indulging in was having a vagina, or there is rather more to your position than you first claim. If this is the case, I would like to suspend judgement on whether or not I should forgive you until this is clarified.


So, as far as I can tell, we're just back to blame-the-scary-vaginas until further notice. Enlightening, but not very politically relevant.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
17:08 / 20.12.06
Hang on, Jake - has anyone expressed horror at that? I don't think they have. Which is why I'm a bit confused about this diversion. Could you show me where horror was expressed at someone seeing humanity in terms of potentiality and becoming?

My bad, Haus. I was just trying to say that his views horrified me. I think they're icky. Wasn't trying to lump anyone else in there. I'll slink back to the Spectacle now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:20 / 20.12.06
Oh, I see. Sorry - I was genuinely confused, because I thought Lyons had made up the horror, which thought as it turns out you were not contesting. I wondered whether I'd missed something. Please do stay.
 
  

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