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The 49ers by Alan Moore and Gene Ha

 
  

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FinderWolf
16:51 / 09.08.05
from Jess Nevins' annotiations:

>> Page 3. Panel 6. Private Iron is an analogue for D.C.'s G.I. Robot.

>> Note that Private Iron's emblem is a U.S. Army Private's stripe.

DC had a character called "G.I. Robot"?!?! Huh? Never heard of this one. I can't imagine him fighting alongside Sgt. Rock...
 
 
rabideyemovement
03:08 / 10.08.05
I have a brief summation of the Forty-Niners for you...
BRILLIANT!

I just hope the new TOP 10 series will be half as good as Moore's.
 
 
The Timaximus, The!
22:01 / 10.08.05
At SDCC, Zander Cannon said there would be another Moore/Ha/Cannon Top Ten short story in some upcoming ABC anthology.
 
 
the Fool
22:42 / 10.08.05
Almost finished reading this (I'm dragging it out as long as I can) and I can already tell it won't be enough. Really Really wish it were a longer story. Really really wish there would be another volume... but then I really really wish Mr Moore would do another season of Top Ten. *sigh*
 
 
THX-1138
22:44 / 10.08.05
Was it really called GI Robot? I remember Creature Commandos featuring a character of this sort, a GI Robot. It was so cool to a 10-year old mind...
Think along the lines of Weird War Tales...
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
23:17 / 31.08.05
Just grabbed, and read, the 49ers yesterday.

Wonderful stuff. I was really happy with it. The vampire mob angle was just...weird, but neat.

Now...the Maid's tech sphere looked VERY Fourth World. Anyone else notice that?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:26 / 01.11.05
Read this the other day. Aces, I say. Aces.

Re: The Maid's sphere being very Fourth World. I couldn't quite figure out if it was supposed to be a magical Arc or what, or a floating reliquary. Either way: the portrait of the Forty-Niners that we see in the regular series was done in Faux-Kirbian style, so I suppose she could be an early Kirby-style character. I enjoyed her name being Joanna Dark.

Jetlad's secret pain was well-played, although I wanted to see more of the fallout with Skywitch developed. She was given to us as a brand new character with no associations, which was great, and developed nicely but could have been made more central at the end because of that. I like that she's essentially Toybox's equivalent, right down to the train ride arrival.

Interesting that Jetlad doesn't start out with the cops...
 
 
Aertho
10:19 / 01.11.05
Jetlad = Smax? Both have the secret shame...

teh gaye and teh insest
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
13:29 / 01.11.05
Odd. I'd forgotten about Smax's "secret pain." I like how that dovetailed into the breeding experiments that Sturm und Drang were subjected to, and Black Rider's reaction to them.

Other thing: I liked the use of the old time travel chestnut of seeing a headline or part of a headline and misinterpreting it to mean that you win.

I wonder when Neopolis actually joined the multidimensional police jurisdiction of Grand Central? And I wouldn't mind a mid-Fifties rendition with old horror hosts like the Cryptkeeper being part of the focal point crime.
 
 
Aertho
13:39 / 01.11.05
I bet Grand Central mixes with Top Ten authority in the sixties. 1961, probably.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:14 / 01.11.05
That's around the time of the first JLA/JSA, innit? Or was it '63?

Did anyone else feel that the clicker-hatred felt tacked on? I know that it was supposed to bleed into the modern day hate, but whenever it came up in dialogue it felt a bit awkward; I'm thinking of the Blue Dart having to explain at the beginning who clickers were, and why they were called that. It felt like he was saying, "I'm prejudiced! And this is why!" Sour note.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:43 / 01.11.05
>> Did anyone else feel that the clicker-hatred felt tacked on?

A bit, yes...Moore's 'robot gangster raps' in the regular Top Ten series were sometimes a bit cheesy, too, but usually amusing.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:04 / 01.11.05
Well, those were sort of cutesy, but yeah - funny. But in 49ers it didn't feel like it came naturally out of the narrative. That's a problem which affects Sharkey's actions at the end; why target Tintown? It felt like it was barely an issue in the narrative beyond that point. It distracted from the more plot-centric attack on Little Hungry...
 
 
Aertho
17:23 / 01.11.05
Well, robots are prejudiced in the real world. As an example of a workforce that requires no food, sleep, time off, or benefits. Robots continue to take jobs away from human beings at an accelerating rate.

Add an artifical intelligence to that, and you get a population of workers that, if in competition with organic beings, will devour what little resources are available in mid 40s Neopolis.

I thought it made sense that Tintown was attacked first.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:35 / 01.11.05
Well, I understand and agree with your logic, but while it -does- make sense from a logical point of view, it seemed a bit secondary in a narrative point of view; it's not the main focus of the story and the idea wasn't developed enough. It felt like an addition to the plan rather than a focal point. Part of this is because we don't get enough of Sharkey's ultimate motivation - he doesn't get enough screen time, and certainly not in a position to be more open with what he's doing. But it also has to do with this story being a self-contained unit, rather than an ongoing; I think I would have appreciated the Tintown stuff more if I'd known there was going to be more of a street-level examination of Tintowners' living conditions. You get a small amount with Steelgauntlet, but that only really comes out at the end and isn't dealt with sufficiently and drives me to want that 50s/60s sequel.

The Tintown stuff seems meant to indicate a starting point for the attitudes thrown around in Top Ten; that's very clear, but it felt more like it "had" to be brought up, rather than being a focal point - I would have liked that, especially as more of a counterpoint to all the in-story emphasis on the vampires. It would have worked for me more if I knew that there'd be another story coming up with an emphasis on Tintown - especially with the opportunity given to show us the rebuilding of Tintown, and the attitudes of those living next door to it.
 
 
Aertho
17:47 / 01.11.05
It felt like an addition to the plan rather than a focal point.

Isn't that what makes the Top Ten series so much fun? Lots of buzzing little plots around this crazy, yearning heart of a story?
 
 
Aertho
18:37 / 01.11.05
I'm at work and so can't really dive in, but you've brought up some points worth exploring. Continue later? But: The Skysharks are ex-ww2 Nazi killers that turn into Nazis when they realize they're not the "winners" anymore.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:57 / 02.11.05
Well, yeah, that's what Wulf theorized. But I could have done with a bit more background or something. I think the fatal flaw is just that this needed to be longer. There will and should always be loose ends, but there's a difference between that and something that hasn't been fleshed out enough.

More later.
 
 
LDones
01:55 / 02.11.05
The Skysharks(stand-ins for the Blackhawks)/Tintown subplot is a direct transposition of Moore's ideas for the Blackhawks in his somewhat maudlin Twilight of the Superheroes proposal.

In it, Blackhawk goes insane and bombs the slums of what used to be Gotham, where all the old weirdo superheroes are in hiding, in what seems like very similar buildup to the events in the 49ers.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:14 / 02.11.05
I finished this last night, and enjoyed it: a sweet, richly-finished but ultimately rather lightweight story. It's touching and unusual that the grand irony underlying The Forty-Niners is simply that we know Steve and Wulf will stay together for over fifty years.

A few points I was less happy with, or questioned:

-- a real shame Moore couldn't check his German. He's so careful with language and yet you have "ungluchlich" for "unglucklich", "Leibe" for "Liebe" and Wulf unconvincingly using the formal "verstehen Sie" to Steve. My own German is rusty but a lot of the expressions seemed directly translated from English, rather than natural phrases.

-- I know this is an alternate-past of course, and I can see why Moore has used the word, but I don't think anyone would use "queer" proudly in 1949. A man happy with his sexual attraction to men, as I understand it, might have used "homophile". To call yourself "queer" would, I think, have been like saying "I'm scum".


-- The time-machine plot was very unsatisfying. This isn't just a big ray-gun, it's a time-machine! something unspeakable, unheard-of, surely the most incredible and terrifying invention anyone would have seen even in the alt-20th century, an opportunity for man to play God, more awful and potent than an atom bomb. But it's dealt with in a few farcical pages, with the technology and the potential for another identical or superior machine never mentioned. There's more fuss over the idea of an advanced robot. The huge close-up newspaper, quite obviously misrepresenting the course of history, looks like a Mad magazine fold-in.

-- I'd thought in chapter 1 that the vampires were an analogue for Jews. "If Hitler did one good thing," says our reformed Nazi, hater of Fascism, "it was sending them to the camps." The little vampire's language struck me, perhaps wrongly, as representing Jewish dialect: "See, my family? How they put on the big welcome?" I don't know... isn't there something uncomfortable about the idea that the bad guys are people Hitler was justified in trying to wipe out through death-camps? I'm sure this isn't an intentional analogue on Moore's part, but I wondered if anyone else shared my reading.
 
 
The Falcon
09:17 / 02.11.05
No, but the vampires were designated quite clearly as Hungarian in Top Ten, iirc. I read it as Eastern European meets mobster talk.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:48 / 02.11.05
They are the single group (apart from "clickers") who are held in contempt and demonised just because of their ethnic origin, though, aren't they?
 
 
Aertho
10:36 / 02.11.05
"I'm scum"

It's Pre-Stonewall here, man. There's no gay pride anywhere. Andd, pre-Kinsey... before gay study. Gay = Scum, pretty much.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
13:39 / 02.11.05
There might have been a touch of self-depreciation in saying it, though - Wulf is seen as a skirt-chaser, so admitting that he doesn't actually live up to that...you could even make the argument that he isn't as self-accepting as he claims, but yeah, queer rang a little false. Homophile would have sounded wrong as well, though.

I'm not actually sure what term would have sounded honest and smooth at that point.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:06 / 02.11.05
"I'm scum"

It's Pre-Stonewall here, man. There's no gay pride anywhere. Andd, pre-Kinsey... before gay study. Gay = Scum, pretty much.


I think I see what you're saying, and I think you're agreeing with what I suggested, about the cultural context of '49 (assuming it's similar to our 1949, in terms of sexual politics).

However, Wulf didn't say "I'm queer" as if he was saying "I'm scum". He seems comfortable in his homosexuality and his announcement was part of a straightforward declaration of identity and desire... effectively a pick-up. He wasn't saying "I'm scum and you're beautiful." He was saying "Here's how I am, I'm good with it; I want you and if you're good with it too, I'll be right here."

Basically I feel that "queer" has the right connotations for today's readers, but it was a rare anachronism in Moore's work.
 
 
LDones
18:54 / 02.11.05
kovacs:

I might argue that it isn't much different from an older man with a sense of humor telling a younger one that he was a "fag", but I do feel you, and think Moore just made the choice to reach modern readers with the language.

I also feel you on the vampires-as-Jews analogue and the potential justification for interring/exterminating them that took a turn on me - though I don't know that I can properly explain why. It may be that the Holocaust comparison, followed by an at least marginally sympathetic portrayal is followed up next by an event that leads to brutal rape and mutilation, which was (intentionally, I think) rather jarring.

As far as the anticlimax of the Time Machine bit, virtually every plot in the book is handled this way, and I'd imagine it's deliberate. Threats come up and are dealt with in the same chapters, by and large, in a breezy fashion that's more hugely charming than suspenseful. I'd wager it was a tonal choice.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:08 / 02.11.05
Thanks LDones, for making me feel I wasn't just plucking this from nowhere.

With regard to the time machine, I agree that the plot is breezy and light, and things are mainly dealt with, then forgotten. But a time machine! Surely this invention warps the limits of the possible. It's not just some vampires roughing up a barman, or even a dead Nazi in a tin suit. Even a failed experiment with a time machine is like the first nuclear explosion. It's surely not something you could just move on from like that -- it would change the course of history that such a thing had even been achieved for 5 minutes.

I know I'm perhaps asking for more "realism" than this book was ever meant to give, but on the other hand it does sometimes take itself pretty seriously (the central love story and the robot-racism echo through to the modern Top Ten, and are treated with gravity) and Leni's reaction to the very idea of a Zeit-Maschine was astonished horror.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:59 / 02.11.05
It's said outright that Gromolko invented a previous time machine, isn't it? I don't want to get up and go hunting through the book, but I seem to recall Leni mentioning one early on when he's first brought up - around the time she mentions the Blitz-wheel.

I got the sense that this was *another* time machine, which might explain why most of the characters - except Leni, who (a) actually solved the problem and (b) was around to know what kind of a person Gromolko was - would tend to ignore the broader implications. They've probably spent a lot of time issuing propaganda to deflect from Gromolko's earlier horrors, while Leni was a German there while he did it during the war - close enough that it was clearly (if not outright, again, don't have it in front of me) one of the primary reasons she defected in the first place.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:02 / 03.11.05
Went and had a look.

Page 11: "Gromolko was a little swine. He had a whole labour camp, people dying building his space cannon, his time machines..." He has invented previous time machines. The way Leni refers to Gromolko throughout is as someone who was there, close enough to see just how dangerous he was. Neopolis wants the geniuses, "even if they designed the blitz-wheel." I imagine that the city officials are pumping a lot of effort into distracting from the less than savoury characters actually designing the place.
 
  

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