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Magickally created music... what are the ethics? The possibities?

 
 
Z. deScathach
06:14 / 19.12.04
This thread came out of the techno-exorcism thread earlier, (it can be found here), in which I mentioned that music would be a poor method for me to exorcise something, because as a musician, I would probably feed the demon rather than weaken it. I also said jokingly that a piece of music with a demon in it would probably sell very well. That brings up a thorny question. Music has the capacity to reach more people than almost any medium. With the advent of the internet, enabling more out of the ordinary musicians to bypass the record companies, that has become even more so. I'm absolutely sure that some people are selling music that has been worked with magickally. Nobodies talking in the states, for obvious reasons. So just what are the ethics of this? Providing that we believe that magick works, coming from that premise, music has a HUGE capacity to alter consensus reality. It does that on it's own, with very little help from anything else. Performing magick on a public piece could only boost that. It brings up some intrigueing questions? Are musicians using magick to sell their work by influencing buyers? Can magickally created music make a better world? Can it make a worse one? Should we care?

As for my own view, I think it all comes out in the wash, i.e., people are doing nasty things, people are doing good things, been there, done that. As for myself, I would be uncomfortable selling a work that had a demon in it, as I would feel that I would be birthing it from my mind into the general population. Still, with some of the nasty things going on over here in the states, the thought of influencing consensus reality positively,(full well realizing that 'positively' is a subjective and loaded term), through magickally worked music is an attractive one.
 
 
iamus
09:12 / 19.12.04
Well, I suppose you could say that all music is magical in one sense or another. All music works to evoke certain thoughts or feelings, regardless of whether thats a freeform assosciation or something that's more intended by the artist. It's all the creative force. It works in the same way as language, which is the premier tool for transmitting and binding concepts, although in my opinion music has the ability to bypass the logic centres of our brains and get under on a far more subconcious emotional level that language has a harder job getting to.

Even music that wasn't created under specific ritual terms can contain demons of a form or another, as artists channel their raw emotion and turn it into sound using the same process by and large as Sypha points out in the other thread. We've all listened to headspaces as private as any of that stuff, from what's in the charts alone. I think the real value in using this method is in personal growth. The act of channeling and binding the demon is done more for the process than the actual outcome. It's all about the catharsis and subsequent distancing. That's not to say that music created with magical intent has no value or influence outwith the artist. But I suppose that all depends on whatever it is you were channeling and whether it's general enough to move to others, or too personal to be compatible.

Music can be an expression of our own desire to change the world. It's the desire that will ring true with others or just dead-end. It'll work the same with any medium, be it music, writing, film, whatever. The method you use to quantify and transmit the desire is a matter of personal choice.
 
 
--
15:04 / 19.12.04
Well, Coil did that "Time Machines" CD in which the tones were meant to simulate drug experiences and thereby put the listener in a weird headspace. And Dave Tibet, regarding an old Current 93 single named "LAShTAL", noted that the synthesizer frequencies were at the proper pitch needed to call forth Malkunofat. so there's a few examples right there. I also recall reading about Genesis P-Orridge saying that some Psychic TV live shows used these sampled tracks that took climaxes (be they sexual, orchestral, or what not) and looped the climaxes over and over again. According to P-Orridge playing such music had an interesting effect on audience members... Some would lose control of bowel movements, some would orgasm, some would get into fights... Now that I think of it, TG did a lot of experimentation on audiences in this manner also. It does raise certain ethical issues, granted.

Frankly, I think we need more magic in music these days. IMO, popular music is becoming increasingly vapid and formulaic these days, what with all these American Idol people singing in perfect pitch and turning in these dull, lifeless performances. What we need is more dirt, more grit, more weirdness, not this plastic music or, at the other end of the extreme, these 60's garage band wannabes playing "rock" (just without the rebellion, of course). At the very least it raises questions and gets people talking, and that kind of reaction is important. As much as I dislike Eminem I'd listen to him over someone like, say, Jessica Simpson any day.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:51 / 19.12.04
this has been done for centuries, perhaps not in a mass marketed form but music and mysticism go hand in hand, you could say all music has an intent, be it from getting someone jiggy on a dance floor or a singer droning on about how shit there life is so that other people can relate to there shit life, actually putting demons in music....heh.... why do you think the christian right is up in arms over music? but seriously most art forms are representative of the artist and the culture, as was mentioned above whats more important imo is the sound and not the content of the sound, thou with noise that content can be important. alot of what porridge is saying comes from burroughs work in that area, ie recording riots and using the sounds to start them etc etc

ive been working alittle in this area myself on my pc with fruity loops, mainly to express feelings or provoke them, but i get stuck in the first loop. and also while riding my bike into town singing various songs in a mantric like fashion, ie erasures song > they say love is just infactuation i say love is dancing across the nation. that bit repeatedly while humming the keyboard lines between each repition, provokes a great mood for me.

also another thing which comes up is the old playground attitude of perverting the meaning of things which i find useful especially if i get songs looping in my head for example an old one from my childhood would be

mary had a little bike she rode it back to front
everytime the wheels went round the spokes went up her.....

i generally apply this rule to modern song loops that annoy me for example that feed the world thing is doing my head in at present, so bleed the world.
 
 
Z. deScathach
18:09 / 19.12.04
Frankly, I think we need more magic in music these days. IMO, popular music is becoming increasingly vapid and formulaic these days, what with all these American Idol people singing in perfect pitch and turning in these dull, lifeless performances.

I couldn't agree more. The idea of music that DOESN"T have magick is rather sad. I believe that magick can make music not only more alive, but it can be used to influence a transition to a more free, more vibrant world. I've worked with fractal art magickally, and I've always found that artwork linked with magick seems to have more depth and power. Art in general is a magickal act, but when that magick is worked into the art intentionally, something seems to happen that goes beyond the usual creative process. I've found that the best way of dealing with some of my own demons is to cozy up to them. Not all though. If I were to impress something like that into a piece, it would be one of the demons that can be worked WITH rather than against. A lot of the stuff that I thought to be so terrible turned out to be my greatest source of strength. It was the repression that had created the demon. Still, there are some that I would hesitate to magickally impress into a distributed piece of music. In terms of the idea generally, however, the more I think about it, the more I wonder, "why not?" Are our harmful desires really more powerful than us? The world in general is becoming more magickal every day. We are transforming. It's hard to see, but it's happening. I think magickally created music is a part of that.

In terms of Psychic TV experimenting magickally on the audience in their live shows, if I went to see them, I would expect nothing less. Some groups you go to see because you expect to be taken into an area where you haven't been before.
 
 
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19:36 / 19.12.04
Hey I just found this whilst going through some backthreads, it's got quite a few examples of and pointers to magick in music.
 
 
LykeX
08:13 / 20.12.04
Reading that, I remembered a review of Marilyn Manson's Antichrist Superstar Tour link

Especially page 2 has some stuff about enochian sigils on the cd cover. It's kinda long, so if you're not into Manson, skip ahead.
 
 
Seth
10:28 / 20.12.04
Frankly, I think we need more magic in music these days. IMO, popular music is becoming increasingly vapid and formulaic these days, what with all these American Idol people singing in perfect pitch and turning in these dull, lifeless performances.

I hate this “Feed Me, Feed Me!” attitude. Pop music is blisteringly healthy at the moment, there’s a dizzying amount of fantastic new music, always more than can be taken in. Only you have to actively look for it.

This is the way it works: most of what is perceived to be the great music of a particular year isn’t heard by the majority of its potential audience until well after its initial release. Most people see the year pass as mediocre, only discovering the hidden gems and talented artists/bands the following year, or possibly even later. This distances them from properly associating the material with the year in which it was released. As time goes by, however, the decade becomes associated with these works and artists, and the forgettable ones become… well, forgotten.

So lets think back to all the rubbish we listened to in the eighties and nineties, and then remember what it was like to first listen to The Pixies, or 808 State, or the Wu-Tang Clan, or Melt Banana, or Lightning Bolt. Music is healthier now than ever – the UK top ten currently has Kylie, Ice Cube, Destiny’s Child, Green Day, Girls Aloud and Morrisey, the top twenty has Natasha Bedingfield, Nelly, Snoop Dogg, Pharell, Eminem and Jay-Z. All of who have produced fantastic music, even if their current chart offering isn’t up to par (IMHO). That’s over half of our current top twenty, and the fact that it’s Christmas can’t fully account for such an overwhelming glut of quality. Now, Cube, Destiny’s Child, Green Day, Morrisey, Snoop, Pharell, Eminem and Jay-Z have all been hugely influential throughout their careers. They may not be to your taste, but the manner in which they’ve changed the musical climate is pretty indisputable.

Without exception I’ve found people who bemoan the current state of pop music to have generally lazy attitudes to music and a pretty impoverished record collection when it comes to recent music. We live in a world where hip hop has taken over, where bizarre leftfield R’n’B is play on mainstream radio and in clubs, people are responsible for their own business decisions and content and sound. If you aren’t into it that’s fine, but don’t moan that there’s no good music around.

I’ve worked with music in a spiritual setting for the vast majority of my life, and after a while it became utterly transparent to me: I knew that if I played a specific rhythm, then a specific fill, I would get a very specific and visible result from the nine-hundred or so people in attendance. And then, I’ve seen exactly the same effect at a concert in which there was supposedly no intended magic worked into the performance. The result: either there is no real magic, or all music is magical. I reckon probably both answers are true. But there’s certainly no real added effect imbued by creating the music with magical intent.

At the end of the day, I’ve never heard a record that’s supposedly been intentionally worked with magic that’s moved me nearly as much as Millionaire by Kelis. Or December 4th by Jay-Z. Or Chewing Gum by Annie. And the latest Kylie single fucking rules.
 
 
Z. deScathach
12:16 / 20.12.04
I’ve worked with music in a spiritual setting for the vast majority of my life, and after a while it became utterly transparent to me: I knew that if I played a specific rhythm, then a specific fill, I would get a very specific and visible result from the nine-hundred or so people in attendance. And then, I’ve seen exactly the same effect at a concert in which there was supposedly no intended magic worked into the performance. The result: either there is no real magic, or all music is magical. I reckon probably both answers are true. But there’s certainly no real added effect imbued by creating the music with magical intent.

Hmmm, doesn't this make a pre-supposition? That magickal intent worked into the music is designed to get a more intense reaction from the participants? What if the magickal intent is there to do something else, such as alter consciousnes, or social structure? Such things are not immediately apparent, and they do not occur immediately in the performance. They are also impossible to quantify or follow up on. It's my personal opinnion that if the magickal intent of causing people to practice magick has been woked into music, then it has worked quite well.... kids are practicing it in droves....
 
 
Seth
23:59 / 20.12.04
Really? Most of the kids round my way are into movies and music and sport. I didn’t realise that “droves” had come to mean “a few examples scattered here and there.”

I just came back from seeing the Pogues, reformed with Shane McGowan. It’s a miracle he’s still alive, and the entire of Brixton Academy was filled to capacity, pissed up and singing, like a huge football crowd or – more accurately – an Irish pub swelled to titanic proportions. Now, the Pogues probably never intended for strangers to be hugging each other, crying in public and deifying their sodden singer – they’ve proved to be a wonderfully life-affirming positive force, their songs deal with struggle and hope and despair and love and death. What they do is magic, but they know nothing of what we’d term magic. They’re a folk band with a touch of punk in the mix.

Whereas the Boredoms, they might believe in magic. Yamatsuka Eye talks about the Voordoms as the name for their latest incarnation, and how they attempt to bore their way into the centre of the Earth to unleash the serpent energy at the planet’s core. They use three full kit drummers, co-ordinated by Eye, a maelstrom of pinpoint precision and tight discipline. It sounds like kodo mixed with psychedelic rock and dance music, all improvised, but it’s unclassifiable. The upshot: it doesn’t seem to have a huge effect on audiences I’ve witnessed in this country. I certainly danced my ass off, but I was one of about fifteen to twenty on both occasions I saw them.

Wayne Coyne is an atheist humanist who muses on metaphysics and performs similar sound experiments to Genesis P Orridge, but he’d never believe in magic despite giving people one of the most transcendent, meaningful and purely entertaining live shows they’ll ever see. Mix glitter, huge balloons, people in animal costumes, hand held smoke cannons, videos of people snorting their own brains and real execution footage juxtaposed with topless dancing girls, fake blood, and songs about realising that everyone you know is going to die. He’s following his own twisted muse, he knows the power of what he’s doing, but he’s not into magic, because if magic is worth anything then it’s the stuff of life that we’re all engaged in all the time.

People want music they can identify with, songs they can belt out when they’re pissed, something that meets them in their experience of the world. Hip hop is the most successful form right now because what people rhyme about means something to people. It’s far more articulate on the subjects of hardship, drugs, violence, sex and partying than rock music is right now (probably because rap is rooted in what the blues and folk forms really meant to people. Virtually none of the music that I’ve noticed produces the most powerful effects has anything to do with magic whatsoever.

The kids are all into magic? No mate. The kids are all into Dizzee Rascal.
 
 
Unconditional Love
03:55 / 21.12.04
hey seth, since you seem more clued up than me and have been paying attetion to music for the last five years while ive had my head up my arse, where are good sources of up and coming music online, especially anything percussion based wether it be electronic or acoustic.
i am a lazy arse with a bad record collection.
 
 
Z. deScathach
12:30 / 21.12.04
The kids are all into magic? No mate. The kids are all into Dizzee Rascal.

Hmmm, I never said that they were "all" into magick. That is your word. I live in a relatively small community in the United States. We have a shop here that sells books on magick exclusively. There are kids in that shop all the time. I know many of them. When I was in High School, I never met a SINGLE other individual that was even aware of magick as a practice, much less a practitioner. Now that shop is full of 'em. I don't know how things are over in the UK, and I wouldn't hazard a guess, because I don't live there. Over here, there are a LOT of kids into magick. As to why they are into it, there can be any number of influences, from music to "Charmed". Now, before I rot my own thread, I shall shut up.
 
 
Z. deScathach
15:56 / 21.12.04
I just found an old gnosis article about this very topic, it can be found here.
 
 
Seth
17:46 / 21.12.04
I live in a small city, and regularly travel to other cities round the south of England. I work in a pub, my girlfriend and ex-wife are teachers, I play drums in a punk band. And I know hardly any young people who are into the occult (about three or four who seem to be a subset of Goth, the rest through Barbelith). I might suggest that the introduction of an occult bookshop into a small community may well spark an interest that grows over time. I used to do youthwork in small communities, it can be tough when there’s nothing for kids to do. Still, it keeps them from grinding their decks on all your benches and kerbs, right? Your bookshop sounds like the occult equivalent of the loading bays under Colchester, where we used to go to chat with the skaters.
 
 
Seth
17:58 / 21.12.04
where are good sources of up and coming music online, especially anything percussion based wether it be electronic or acoustic.

I don’t tend to look online besides Barbelith when it comes to music. I mainly hear of new stuff through The Wire and Loose Lips Sink Ships. I have a lot of friends who are into similar music to me, so we trade CDs and burn each other stuff. Plus I play in a band, and get to hear a lot of new music by the DJs and bands we play with. Occasionally I’ll listen to the radio or music television. If you’re after exclusively online resources then I’d ask Flux – he’s much better with that stuff than I am.

Percussion based music… that could be an extremely interesting Music Forum thread, because it looks at percussives in a wider context than just dance music. Plus I’m a drummer, so it’s a subject of massive personal investment. I could list you a few albums to check out, most of them are up for download from Soulseek.
 
 
BARISKIL666
21:36 / 21.12.04
As a musician with some minor sucesses,I will say that Musick is Magick,art of any form is a powerful way of acessing gnosis.
Certainly Musick can be used as a medium to do a Magickal operation.Crowley claimed he couldn't teach a great artist Magick,as they were already a Magician.Certainly musicians with no beleif/practice in the occult have produced sublime Musick,whereas some occultists have produced real turgid crap under the guise of Musick.
The modern artists who have produced a genuine workable marriage of the two are the rock band Tool.Their 3rd album Anema;the actual CD was a sigil to ASTAROTH.
For anyone who wants to hear my own experementation in this feild please send an e-mail to Jrbarriskill@aol.com with a request for an MP3(be patient....)With my own band EPOCH I did some very far out phychedelic recordings on LSD during ritual etc..
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:39 / 21.12.04
just a small detail so you know, perhaps you already do, astaroth is a combination name of two entities asherah(the wife of yaweh) and astarte.
 
 
BARISKIL666
23:45 / 24.12.04
I knew it was a corruption of Astarte anyway,havn't heard the other one,JHVH's wife?
Makes me wonder on the exact nature of Goetic entities if ASTAROTH is a sort of re-hashed Astasrte/Ishtar/Venus type Goddess,of course in the lesser key ASTAROTH is male?Spose there was no female demons back in the middle ages!?
 
 
---
05:14 / 25.12.04
I play drums in a punk band.

*Bows to Seth* Man that must be amazing.

Their 3rd album Anema;the actual CD was a sigil to ASTAROTH.

Yeah I've got this. When I first got it I read from the T and thought it said TAROT HAS (!) when I found ASTAROTH I was like ahhhhh. Maybe the TAROT HAS was something I was meant to pay more attention to.
 
 
Seth
17:26 / 26.12.04
Brief aside before I drop this line of threadrot, and probably my favourite ever quote from John Peel: "People ask me, ‘what was the best year for music?’ I always say, 'This year is the best year for music. Prior to that it was the previous year"
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:59 / 29.12.04
Hmmm....If a large room full of people with chemically altered consciousness dancing to or interpreting in stillness vibrating air with wave functions that have harmonic interference based on absolute symmetries most often (but not always) resulting from integer subdivisions of wavelengths insn't 'magickal' then I give up and want some pudding.

Even a small room with one person in, doing the same without chemical alteration of consciousness, is pretty fucking wyrd. I mean, music is REALLY BLOODY STRANGE when you gets right down to it. Innit?
 
 
BARISKIL666
16:15 / 29.12.04
Seeing Black Sabbath on acid was one of my most Magickal experiences ever,period!
 
 
Seth
09:52 / 30.12.04
That's music for you, Money $hot. I remember going bugfucked on the steps of the Polish Cultural Association in Hammersmith after a particularly intense session on my NLP course, listening to Melt Banana and feeling as though they were rewiring my insides.

Was it a magical experience? Every experience is magical, or no experience is magical (I suspect both/neither is more true). My issue with this thread is knowing that magical intent in the creation of music makes no real difference to its quality and potency, and a changed perspective of what magic is. It'd be nonsensical and reductive to start calling every powerful musician a shaman, for instance, even though there may be a couple of areas of overlap.

Kawabata Makoto imagines himself channelling vast cosmic forces through his droning feedback guitar. Now, he probably sees himself as a kind of magician (I don’t know for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised with the AMT lot). Efrim Menuck is in what may be a fairly anarchist/socialist punk bank (exact politics unknown because, well… Godspeed won’t be pinned down that easily). No-one really knows what he’s thinking when he plays, we can’t say either way, but it’s very similar to the effect of Makoto’s playing. Taka and Yoda from Mono play the same way, but we know from their interviews that they view their playing as any skilled and intuitive musician would, with words such as “emotion” and “connection to the audience.” And then there’s Stuart Braithwaite (Mogwai) who would probably explain what he does differently, and so would Jón Bor Birgisson (Sigur Rós), and so would Mark Smith and Munaf Rayani (Explosions in the Sky)…

The point? All these people play in a similar manner, achieving similar effects. Some describe it in magical terms, some don’t. If anything, trying to map magical concerns onto music seems to indicate that… well, there’s absolutely nothing special about people who call what they’re doing “magic.” And often people who don’t call what they do magic have greater skills than those that do (it’s undeniable that Ghostface Killah is a better MC than Saul Williams, for example – although the latter can be astonishing at pure poetry, he just hasn’t got the skills for hip hop).

Music is pure experience, and it cheapens that experience to label it as magical, because then I’ll have already started the linguistic process of severing myself from my experience in order to describe it and build a potentially inaccurate little theology around it. If anything this thread is serving to further highlight to me that the word “magic” is rather impoverished.
 
  
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