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Talk me out of it.

 
 
Chiropteran
19:51 / 15.12.04
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm tossing around the idea of (at some point) working with the Sanctuary of Ma'at to learn the Golden Dawn system of magick.

I would like to hear your best reasons for why I should not do so. Reading through G.D. literature at the S.o.M. makes it sound so good. So, why isn't it?

Please note, I am not challenging anyone to defend either the Golden Dawn or the Sanctuary of Ma'at. I'm looking for some criticism to balance the golden (ha!) reviews that have, thus far, been my introduction to the G.D.

For a less condemning alternative, what questions would you suggest that I ask myself to determine whether the G.D. system and I are a good fit?

Thanks,

~L
 
 
rising and revolving
21:00 / 15.12.04
A bunch of points, with my level of subscription to each varying.

1) It's hard work. Many start, few make it to Adept. I've observed that stopping in the middle of an elemental grade is ... interesting. As it effectively leaves you with a whole bunch of excess elemental juice hanging around.

2) It's a secret front for mystic Christianity. After all, that's what's meant by "A Rosicrucian inner order" - you have to be pretty comfortable with Christianity, or at the very least with an esoteric interpretation of Christ, to want to set that as a goal.

3) It's so old Aeon, dude. All the Thelema kids will laugh at you.

4) Politics. Debates over charters, lineage, Secret Chiefs - all things that get in the way of doing the work.

5) Self-Initiation. Does it compare to physical initation? How about astral initation? Isn't it hard to visualise the full Neophyte ritual taking place and channel the appropriate energies into yourself? Isn't that usually the job of an Adept? How does that work anyways?

6) It's hardly like the GD is more "right" than anyone else, is it? So why all the dogma? Where's the room for the personal touch? Doesn't the whole thing feel a bit rusty in the age of Chaos Magic?

Things that might be worth considering regarding how well the system will 'fit'.

Look into the LBRP. Does the concept of incanting YHVH towards the east worry you? What about bidding all bad things begone in the name of YHShVH (Jeheshua, or 'Jesus')? If so, does it make a difference if you consider these as "elemental forumlae"? Why?

You're joining a 'club' where you call people Frater and Soror - brother and sister. Some of them, you'll call "Very Honourable Frater" - does this rankle?

How do you feel about silly robes and funny hats? Weird looking wands?

What about demonic forces?

That's a start - if you need any more to dissuade you, lemme know ...
 
 
--
21:05 / 15.12.04
Because forming your own secret society would be a hell of a lot more fun... Because "Golden Dawn" is kind of a lame name for a group... Because the O.T.O. are so much cooler...

Of course, it would probably put you into a different mindframe, so if you're interested in that, go for it.
 
 
electric monk
02:35 / 16.12.04
Urk! Cuz they mention the friggin' Ciceros right on their front page. I found their pathworkings (tacked onto the otherwise excellent "Garden of Pomegranetes") very...how you say..."fluffy-bunny". That's just me tho.
 
 
Chiropteran
03:03 / 16.12.04
Naw, I think the funny hats have put me off it for good. :|

Really, the Judeo-Christian bit is one of the big turnoffs, and I'm trying right now to weigh how big a turnoff it is, and why. On the one hand, it would be an opportunity to decondition my negative feelings towards Christianity. On the other, well... I've got seriously negative feelings towards Christianity. [rhetoric] Is my sense that something isn't right an outward sign of blockage to my spiritual growth, or my own Higher Self (as you like it) telling me that something isn't right? [/rhetoric]

Any way I look at it, any step I take into formalized Western Mystery Tradition/Hermeticism/Qabbalah(sp, sp, whatever, blah) is a big step out of my comfort zone. This, again, is a compelling reason both for and against.

Well, let's spin this question on its head: what can the Golden Dawn (S.o.M. or otherwise) offer me that I couldn't get elsewhere or happily do without (assuming an underlying agenda of spiritual growth)?

Thanks for your responses so far!

~L
 
 
Z. deScathach
03:15 / 16.12.04
I would say that the fact that you asked for people to talk you out of it probably is an indicator that it's not where you really want to go. Besides, they're so damn full of themselves. On the pro side: You get to perform many good exercises that will benefit you down the road in WHATEVER form of magick you get into. Also, being full of yourself can be fun.......
 
 
Chiropteran
03:36 / 16.12.04
I would say that the fact that you asked for people to talk you out of it probably is an indicator that it's not where you really want to go.

Well, I phrased it that way deliberately to focus the discussion - a 'null hypothesis' sort of setup. The stated goals of the G.D., and the Great Work of the Western Mystery Trad in general, are usually phrased so that they sound damn good, even inarguable at first glance. The image they paint of themselves is pretty appealing, even allowing for the political rickitta-rackitta. I wanted the other side of the story, though.

Think of it this way: a well-known philanthropist says, "Sign here, and I'm going to give you a thousand dollars." With the dollar signs flashing in your eyes, it sounds pretty good - think of what you could do with an extra thousand bucks! Before you sign on the dotted line, however, it's good to ask about the catch - "Well, we're going to need your legs. Yes, above the knee." Oh.

What the Golden Dawn offers could very well be worth far more than a thousand dollars, but Christianity just might be the bonesaw. Glad I asked.

~L
 
 
LVX23
17:11 / 16.12.04
It's so old Aeon, dude. All the Thelema kids will laugh at you.

Ha! Right on.

Because the O.T.O. are so much cooler...

Well, yes and no. There's a lot of BS that's moved into many Thelemic lodges, and the Caliphate itself is arguably trying to become papal while fiercely defending copyrights on Crowley's work (The Law is for All, right?). All of these groups suffer from hierarchies and ego's, infighting and questionable authorities.

The real question you should ask yourself is "Am I capable of accepting authority from people I don't respect?" because this tends to be the rule of thumb in all hierarchical systems, especially magick. OTOH, if you're the type of person who enjoys structure, mentorship, a degree of competition, and the fraternal bonds of group work, then something like the GD or OTO might be right up your alley. It pretty much comes down to what type of magician you are: Do you like to go solo and judge your own progress, or are you more drawn to a formalised system of overseen initiation? If you just want to get their excercises and secrets, there are plenty of good books on the subject. At least make sure you try to get some inside info about the lodge from previous members.

Of course, those who know say that the A...A... is the only way to go.

On the one hand, it would be an opportunity to decondition my negative feelings towards Christianity. On the other, well... I've got seriously negative feelings towards Christianity.

Well esoteric Christianity can be pretty cool. It's very different from what passes as Christianity in most parts. In the western schools you get into the real devotional aspects of the Christ consciousness symbolized by the dove and grail, tiphareth and agape, the lamb and cross, etc...

I was raised Catholic and by the time I was 15 pretty much didn't want anything to do with the whole mess. I still am highly sceptical. But one Christmas 5 or 6 years ago I went to this church in Wash with my family and was stunned by the symbolism painted on its walls. The lamb of god bleeding from it's heart, pouring into a grail was one of the one's that really stood out and resonated with alot of my own Crowleyanity. So I wouldn't let your dislike of Christianity keep you from joining the GD.
 
 
rising and revolving
01:28 / 17.12.04
Righto! Now to take the other side of the stick. Hard work for a Janus with only one face.

Firstly, consider using what you've learned on the Hoodoo path to find out where you ought to go. That's your most honed tool at the moment, so might as well use it, methinks!

Next, I'll just tell you a little about where I feel the GD fits, pro and con. It's very much a product of its time and place - the more you contextualise it in terms of the late 19th - early 20th century England the more sense it makes, really.

So, like any good Rosicrucian, it wears the dress of the country it travels in. Which in this case means it deals with a fair amount of Christianity.

At the time, this was a plus - as almost everyone for whom the system was designed WAS Christian - and it therefore was built to fit them. Nowadays, this is much less the case.

I went into the whole thing with no real reason to dislike Christianity, but a sort of low-level and unrealised prejudice against the whole concept - possibly from my social scenes overall contempt for the concept of religion full stop.

Said low-level contempt meant I found some elements really challenging to my preconceptions early on. I went into it expecting magic (of which there was plenty, but more on that another time) and got prayer - and biblical quotes. I had to spend some time really examining why and how I was relating to the whole concept of God, let alone Christ.

In the end, that was good work - and to be honest, I didn't (and don't) understand the symbology completely. There came a point where I just had to hurl myself off the cliff at speed and hope I'd land on the other side. I understood then where faith comes into the equation - because I didn't *really* believe in the allegorical value of Jesus or IHVH when my feet left the edge. And I certainly didn't believe in them literally.

Now, I feel much better about my choices. I understand myself better for having made the jump - and at no point did I entertain a "belief" beyond "well, I'll give it a shot and see if I keep getting results".

By the same token, I personally ended up in the GD due to heavy duty (to me) personal signs and portents that lead me here - you can probably safely trust yourself that if you keep doing magical work, whichever path is right for you will open up for you.

There are a myriad of reasons this is a good path for me right now - and none of them are necessarily valid for anyone but me.

So, why have any Christianity in there? Because (at least in my case, and despite my irreligious upbringing) all this symbology and import is built into my psyche by the simple act of being a pretty normal western born and raised lad. It works. And now I understand what it really means to me much better than I once did.

Finally, it may be Christ flavoured, but it's still heresy from the point of view of pretty much any Church. It's also not really a religion or a dogma. There's plenty of demon summoning and dealing with other Gods to get you burned at the stake.

Hope that ramble helps. Let me know if you'd like me to elucidate on any of it.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
16:48 / 17.12.04
Because, instead of the GD, you could begin to work with a contemporary Vodou community, find your met tet, and eventually take initiation.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:03 / 17.12.04
There's plenty of time for that, King Mab. I may even be going out for the lave tet in February (garde and met tet reading included in the fun). But right now I'm just trying to get my heart around ceremonial magick (which I've been playing push-pull with for far longer than Vodou).

I think that, despite my misgivings, I'm going to look into it further. There. How's that?

~L
 
 
cusm
19:08 / 17.12.04
Israel Regardie is the original Fluffy New Age White Lighter. He was also a Reiki Master. Its just the hard work and pointy hat version.

If you're interested in The Work, read the intro essays to get an idea of what its about and what its striving for. I find working with Archangels to be keen, but if you don't then that's reason enough to move on.

Regardless of what you do, daily practice will make you strong in it. Take that much to heart if nothing else.
 
 
Anathema
20:23 / 20.12.04
It might help to consider that there are other GD based groups which have dropped the Christian aspects entirely and have adopted other frameworks to place the GD system into, such as Thelema.

There is the Thelemic Golden Dawn for example (who I am not very familiar with other than in name), as well as other smaller groups, often locally based. Cor Lucis is one such group, (based in Los Angeles: www.corlucis.org), who have made every effort to delete any references to Xtianity, as well as the overwhelming white male bias that goes hand in hand with traditional GD. If the group you are considering joining includes elements that you are uncomfortable with, keep looking until you find something better suited to your path.
 
  
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