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All We Need is Love.

  
 
Papess
18:54 / 12.12.04
A series of scientific experiments in the early 1980s changed forever our understanding of the nature of matter. It is likely that it will also prove to have been the greatest religious discovery of the 20th century.
Physicists call it entanglement, and it describes the state of two or more particles once they have interacted with one another. From then on, irrespective of time and space, a correlation will always exist between them. What happens to one will affect the other - even if they are now at opposite ends of the universe.

This article is fascinating to me. I have been waiting for this revelation from science, and finally it is here. Nice to see them catch up with Barbelith!

It seems the fundamental principal of what most religions label "God", that singularity which permeates the totality, and is quite often identified as an omniscient god, has been proven to exist. Our "non-separability" is God. Fundamentally, this can excentuate the seeming irrellevancy of space and time, not to mention the indulgences of ego and individualism.

So what does it mean for us? What does this mean for you? Should we continue to hold the independant individual as the ideal, or as going against the "laws of nature"? Are we headed towards being consumed in one homogeneous mass as we, as a planet, become increasingly aware of this non-separability? Is retaining the self and identity futile and meaningless?

Since we are seemingly already in this state, it is just a matter of awareness/recollection for sentient beings before this state of being/mind really begins to show it's effects. Is it possible this is the commonality that will eventually bring peace on earth and beyond?

Go forth and discuss!
 
 
Brigade du jour
19:07 / 12.12.04
Ooh BarbeLillith, this is one truly fascinating subject. Reading your first post immediately made me think of Hawking's Brief History Of Time, but ... ach I need to think about this in detail (um, and read the article actually!).

But I just wanted to reply anyway so you know there's more to come, at least from li'l ol' me.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:17 / 13.12.04
this has me thinking of a line from a book as the universe as a huge mass of writhing sex, a cosmological orgie everything trying to fuck everything else, in an intense aliveness, a panic, waves like sepents twisting into a universal egg,hooved feet dancing to pipes, pansexuality.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:40 / 13.12.04
What this also means (and which I've always felt on some level, and also read in various spiritual texts) is that you are always in some way connected spiritually with anyone you've ever had some kind of meaningful relationship/interaction with it, be it sexual or otherwise.
 
 
Papess
15:33 / 13.12.04
What this also means (and which I've always felt on some level, and also read in various spiritual texts) is that you are always in some way connected spiritually with anyone you've ever had some kind of meaningful relationship/interaction with it, be it sexual or otherwise.

Actually, it can be taken even further. We don't need personal interaction to be connected. The point is we are already connnected. That would be what "non-separability" would imply. We have never been separate from each other.

See, here is what is confusing me. There is this acknowledgement that we are not separate, yet there is increasing demand for various details of individualism in society to be recognized as separate from each other. We encourage autonomy, but in this context seems to be futile, or at least incongruent with "non-separability". What are the implications of this "theory" then?

Also, it does seem like a bit of an orgy, , but I think that is what a lot of religious doctrines, especially tao, hinduism, buddhism, and even wicca, try to express with various metaphors - the yin yang, god and goddess, emptiness and bliss, etc... Others still, take the POV of the recognition of union as being the One, the Godhead.

I have to run, come back to this later.
 
 
Papess
15:39 / 13.12.04
Also, the most interesting point of this, is that regardlessof time and space we have always been connected. Non-separability rather surpasses these concepts and would also seem, at least to me, to be a fertile ground for telepathic communication and time travel.

So, I have two discussions I think going on for this. One of social implications but also the magickal applications of non-separability. Also, can the two be reconciled?
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:02 / 13.12.04
i think the line i was thinking of was about cells constantly creating and dying, the whole thanatos and eros thingy,the dance of sex and death, if we are unseperable as this theory suggests and my own experiences suggest, then yes transdimensional awareness, telepathy, time travel etc etc are all happening now, it can be percieved as one moment one space with all things going on, another way would be to sit at the centre of the cyclone the mind and make the realisation that it is not your mind, not your body or alternately to realise that it is all your mind that it is all your body or if you can fuse those ideas into the same awareness that it is empty and form and that it is form and empty, different mystery schools all have different ways of saying this.

so theres no getting away from me your all in my head no wonder i am fucking crazy, big head as well.

everyone knows when your jacking off and tripping, see how they look at you.....arrested again.

it could also be contemplated as a kind of chaotic clusterfuck.
 
 
---
23:36 / 13.12.04
so theres no getting away from me your all in my head no wonder i am fucking crazy, big head as well.

Like no matter what you do you just know that everyone else knows. I have that feeling a lot.
 
 
---
23:38 / 13.12.04
The good thing about this is that you've nothing to own up to. Everyone already knows everything you've done.

And are they judging?

Now I feel like I sound fucking crazy aswell but for some reason I don't care at all. Probably because I've just woke up and I'm in a receptive state of mind.
 
 
sine
05:05 / 14.12.04
I once gave a paper at a philosophy conference on this (entanglement, acausality, synchronicity, parapsychology, etc) called Tidepools of the Universal Mind. Interesting stuff, no doubt. However, since then, conversations with friends in physics have brought to my attention that entanglement states are actually quite fragile. It is much harder to maintain a clear entanglement between say, polarized photons, than the lay material might lead us to believe. Unfortunately, even if the "connexxion" is never actually broken, the "signal" gets pretty dirty pretty fast.

Not of course that any of that excludes the fact that all- of-us-and-everything are still tangled atemporally through the singularity at The Long Fuse - I've been effectively using the idea in my magick ever since I read Gribbin's Schrodinger's Kittens back in the day.
 
 
xenosss
05:07 / 14.12.04
I feel like no one, especially the "journalist" who wrote the article, is actually considering what entanglement really is. From a quick glance it might seem like a neat little theory that proves we're all connected, but it is not. Not at all. Believing that would be like believing we are all constantly in a superposition, which obviously isn't true. The thing about entanglement that people are not considering is that it is a phenomena on the QUANTUM level.

Two entangled particles will no longer be connected once one is observed. Once you get the macroscopic, even microscopic, level there are observations happening all the time. We might all be connected, but it is not through this.
 
 
Never or Now!
06:21 / 14.12.04
Everyone already knows everything you've done. And are they judging?

Damn straight we're judging, Vahku, you disgusting little pervert.
 
 
Papess
08:40 / 14.12.04
The thing about entanglement that people are not considering is that it is a phenomena on the QUANTUM level.

That is exactly what I am getting at. Yet, social trends seem to be refashioning in order to favour independance, individuality and autonomy. At least in the Western world.

Are we functioning in a different manner than our fundamental make-up has/does?

I have more to discuss, but I am wiped. I must turn in.

But you probably knew that! *wink*
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:08 / 14.12.04
so why is it that individuality is becoming more pushed in western culture?

i personally think its all down to economy, the longer people remain single the more disposable income they have, also its a subtle way to control population, the more costly it becomes to have and keep children the harder it will be for people to make that choice, the longer they remain single the more money for the corporate infra structure.

since the 80s things seem to of been heading this way, a culture focused on me and mine at least in the uk, on the surface it can appear very thelemic and libertine, but i dont think it has anything to do with true will at all, it seems to have alot to do with becoming an individual through consumer identity though, and not alot to do with a divine conception of self.

thats not to say that money cant be equated with spirituality, because it can looking at various sufis and masons and i am sure there are plenty of others i am not aware of, i just dont think consumer choice equals freedom, or divinity.

infact the more seperation created socially through the haves and have nots the less unified humanity becomes and more envy is produced, i see a future social system totally divided, those who play the corporate game and those who dont, the idea of a unified humanity is for those that buy in enough to be able to afford it. the rest of us will be left to rot as social security services are finally collapsed over the next ten years or so. the future from where i am standing at present as a voluntary worker in mental health looks completely bleak.

individuality is the new sinking ship they are selling,thank fuck kids are gathering in gangs, no matter what they do at least they are acting as social support systems for each other as the consumer system slowly but surely erodes any sense of unity.

even this medium gives a fake sense of community, each individual isolated as they contribute to a community board, the only plus points being a sharing of common intrests and the possibility of meeting live people with those intrests. the medium in itself though i think provides a false sense of togetherness as we all sit at seperate terminals.

oh well.
 
 
M_a_r_k
13:31 / 14.12.04
"as the consumer system slowly but surely erodes any sense of unity."


Yes, now kids are being taught to unite through what they buy (IPODS, GAP, POKEMON, BRITNEY) rather than have any genuine connection. I do think people feel more alienated nowadays, and as much as a cliche as it is, the vaccuity of the media/consumer industry has a lot to do with it. And don't get me started on the fallacy of the work ethic. :-)

Back to entanglement, I don't know a lot about it, but it does seem to be a nice example of micro/macrocosmic mirroring; I'm very into the idea that time/distance play a much smaller part than we realise. Real truth lies in intensity of experience/interaction, and distance cannot dimminish that. Its nice to know that all those little atoms get to feel this too.
 
 
Papess
17:36 / 15.12.04
...a culture focused on me and mine at least in the uk, on the surface it can appear very thelemic and libertine, but i dont think it has anything to do with true will at all,...

Wolfangel, I have to completely agree with you on this. As has been pointed out in your Liber Oz thread, there is a gross misinterpretation of it's meaning. There is a tendency to equate autonomy with freedom, when in fact, it is near impossible to achieve autonomy whether living in western (so-called) "civilized" culture, or in a rarefied and remote Papuan culture, (for example).

Spiritually, many doctrines seem to hold the soloist in reverence. I am thinking of the solitary retreats in buddhism, which Milarepa exemplified, or the solitary warrior/shaman. Being solitary and autonomous seems to be a necessary part of spiritual practice, only to arrive at the revelation that one is intrisically connected to everything.

What is disturbing me is, this rite of passage, (if I can call it that) is being mimicked by consumerism. As you pointed out Wolfangel, with the example of this "community" just being all of us sitting in our individual homes, at individual terminals. We are quite obviously replacing our inherent non-separateness with telecommunications. The contradiction in our society that we must strive for absolute autonomy yet we are encouraged to connect to the world via network news, internet, text messages, telephones, faxes, etc...seems to create isolation and at the same time manage to materialize and cement a very natural state of being. In a few words, we are replacing telepathy with telecommunication. We are being sold back our non-separability in individual, pre-packaged goods and services. Societal autonomy is certainly not equal to spiritual autonomy, yet I can see how many do percieve their self-sufficiency as being a spiritual-badge-of-honour. Not that I am knocking self-sufficiency, only when it is used as a false retreat. The retreat of a lama, monk, shaman, is done with the purpose of stripping the ego down in order to percieve the non-separability of everything (hence the joke, make me one with everything...), whereas simple self-suffiency just isolates and compartmentalizes, no matter how fast your internet connection is.

Being non-committal in relationships, deciding not to have children or other dependants, removing oneself from familial relations, etc...can also be misconstrued as a spiritual retreat. I find it amusing now in my life, that I had even attempted to disconnect like this myself, at one time. I tried to overcompensate my lack of real connection and imposed isolation, by trying to convince myself I was embracing everything and everyone if I wasn't focused on one person or situation. It is somewhat liberating, but it certainly not freedom. Yet, I see so many others mistake their isolation for freedom.

I am not sure where I am going with this thread, maybe others can steer it a bit. I think this may have been too broad a topic, as I am seeing so many different aspect that can be discussed.

Steer as ye will.
 
  
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