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Lost Cause Solutions

  
 
Papess
19:31 / 08.12.04
Hello Barbefriends. Is that title ever a contradiction, or what?

I need some advice with helping a real life friend whom I love and care for very much. It pains me though, to be friends with her because she is in such a bad situation with her family life that it is actually killing her. She is very ill woman who gets no respect from her kids or husband. Her eldest daughter who is 16 and doesn't go to school and does not work, or even look for work, has also moved her boyfriend in who is of the same uneducated, jobless status. Of course, they are both unable to pay room and board and do nothing in the way of chores to help out. My friend is left to clean up after them both and support them, with very little help from her husband even.

Although the husband does work, he does not even give her pocket money. However, he expects, dinner, laundry, house cleaning, grocery shopping, banking, child-rearing, etc...all to be done without his having to lift a finger. Plus, she holds down a full time job at my work, even though she is plagued with constant pain. I am unsure if he physically abuses her, but I know for sure he does financially and psychologically as he gives her a hassle if she comes home without enough money. Still, she remains with him and stays completely faithful to him.

Her youngest child is also very ill, and too young really to be held accountable for anything other than the cleaning up of her room. Both my friend's ongoing medication, and her child's can get terribly expensive, even with Canada's medical coverage.

My friend's health is failing, and she is heading for a depression, maybe even a breakdown. She cries all the time, and in the past little while, I have been trying to come up with some solutions for her. Everything I suggest is like a brick wall. (You know the type?) Yet, I feel compelled to help her because, well, I know she is a kind a loving person being beaten down by circumstances. It is just abusive, her situation, and frustrating for me to watch without helping her. I don't have all the pieces of the story, but I know it can't be very good if she feels she needs to hide it.

I want to help her, but I am at a loss. As I said, she has an excuse why everything I suggest is not going to work, and if she cannot think of something (it seems to me) she just tells me that I do not understand, and that I don't know her whole situation. This is true, but still, there must be a solution. I have even offered her my place as refuge while her family gets their act together. She didn't take it. I think there is a certain comfortability she has in her suffering, as she has done this for so long. Her father also used to abuse her, physically, till she was black and blue and passed out. Also, it seems like everyone pisses on her, not actually of course, but people give her very little respect. I told her she has to show people how she wants to be treated herself, but it is lost advice.

Unfortunately, in my quest to try and save my friend, and beating myself against her walls with my advice and offers of help, I gave a wall back to her. I told her, (Oh gawd, I feel terrible) "If you are not going to do anything to change your situation, or even try one of my suggestions, then I do not want to hear you complain to me anymore about your life anymore." She freaked. I am one of the few people she can turn to, and I just turned on her in my frustration. I just wanted her to wake up and take charge of her life, I would be right beside her to help her. I want good things for her. She hung up the phone on me and now I am not sure where she is, or what she might do. I am hoping to see her at work tonight, but I think she might skip it. I have left a message with a mutual friend of ours to tell her I am sorry, and that I love her and want her to be happy, and please call me.

So, here I am. I am at a loss, utterly powerless to help her, and I may have pushed her off the edge myself. Maybe I should have just listened. Maybe I should have just given her numbers to call, referred her to women's help centres...kept my mouth shut. I feel like the worst friend ever, and all I wanted was for her to get the love and happiness I know she deserves. I just wish she knew she deserved it too.

I am sure Iam not the only one who has had one of these "lost cause" types for a friend. What do I do here? I care for her, so much.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:54 / 08.12.04
My Dad used to call this the 'Yes, but...' syndrome. Whatever advice was given or solution offered, the person on the receiving end would say 'Yes but...' and come up with a reason why the advice didn't apply or that the solution wasn't possible.

These people are hard to have in your life. I know this, because I used to be one of them!

However, I think you have been doing an outstanding job of love and friendship so far and you really shouldn't chastise yourself for saying what you did.

If it were me in your position, I would try and talk to her face to face. I would say that I really didn't mean it when I said I didn't want to hear it anymore, and that I had only said it because it's really hard to love and care for someone, watch them suffer, try to help but then have every solution and suggestion of a way forward thrown back at you with a reason why it's not possible.

If you don't get to see her, maybe you could write her a letter?

The thing about this is that it's very difficult for you to watch her go through all this, but until the point where she feels ready to deal with her life, make choices and move on there really isn't much you can do to help. The best thing you can do for her, I think, is to continue to be her friend and support her when she needs you. Maybe stop trying to fix things for her, because that hurts you too. Perhaps you could try just to be a sympathetic ear instead. Maybe just listen and go 'Oh dear' and 'uh-huh' in the right places for now.

Then, in a while when she does finally make some decisions about her life she will really need you. And because you've been there for her when she's dithering and just sounding off about being sad, you'll be able to really help her properly by offering her places to stay and giving her your advice and support when she's finally at a point where she can take you up on it.

That's what I think, anyway.

Oh, and FWIW, I think it's a really lovely thing you've been doing for your friend, Barbelillith.
 
 
doglikesparky
20:02 / 08.12.04
That's a tough situation. Maybe showing her this thread might be something to do. At least she'll know that you do care despite what you said.
Beyond that, I'm not going to be much use I'm sorry to say. Just give her the best advice you can and then be there for her to offer love when she doesn't take it.

Good luck.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:06 / 08.12.04
Well yeah, what *can* you do? Very little, apart from offering advice and helping her with anything she chooses to do. (Well, you could go round with a dangerous object and tell the husband not to be such a dick but I'm thinking that's not going to help really.)

Olulabelle is right, you can only really provide support, tell her what you think and help out whenever she does manage to pull herself out.

Only, it's really, really easy to get sucked into these things and invest so much of yourself in a situation which you can't do anything about that you end up screwing yourself up. I'm not entirely sure how to avoid this since I still do it, but it's something to be aware of at least - keep looking at *yourself* to see whether you're getting too personally involved.
 
 
Ganesh
20:07 / 08.12.04
A question. You've said that she is "very ill", that her "health is failing" and that she is "heading for depression". When you talk about the illness and the failing health, are you talking about her low mood, or something else?
 
 
lekvar
20:22 / 08.12.04
I have a somewhat similar situation, one which I posted in ganesh's "pinky shrink" thread.

I've found that accepting that it's a lost cause actually frees a lot of energy that can be devoted to providing comfort instead of providing solutions. Chances are your friend isn't interested in solutions yet.

I've dealt with my friend and his situation by being there to offer support, friendship, advice that invariably goes unheeded, and a spare bedroom he can use if/when he wants.

It kills me to watch him wallow in an unhealthy environment, but I've realized that he has to make the first move. I would guess that the same applies to your friend.

I hope this all works out for you and your friend. Best wishes for a happy ending.
 
 
Ganesh
20:46 / 08.12.04
The reason I ask about about your terminology, BarbeLillith, is that I'm wondering whether you're casting this woman in an illness/victim role when, in fact, her situation is more complex.

In my decade-plus as a psychiatrist (and also in my private life) I've come in contact with many, many individuals who've described a catalogue of situational woes, such that I've wanted to do everything in my power to change their situation - and, as you've so effectively articulated, every intervention that's suggested, every avenue that's offered is pooh-poohed, turned down, sometimes even actively sabotaged. I probably met more of these people post-overdose than in any other situation: they'd paint a picture of a thoroughly abusive relationship, leading me to propose womens' refuges, police support, etc. - all of which was politely but firmly refused.

After a while, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't help these women (and, almost without exception, they were women). They'd become habituated to a sufferer role and, for better or worse, they were incapable of moving beyond that role. Perhaps they derived some masochistic satisfaction from playing the martyr, perhaps they lacked the self-esteem or imagination to visualise anything other than being a victim. Either way, I eventually realised I could lead a horse to water, but I couldn't make it drink.

BarbeLillith, you should not be chastising yourself. You can only help your friend so much before she has to help herself - and, if she's unwilling or unable to do that, there's fuck-all you can do. You've already extended yourself further than most friends would in this situation, and you have nothing to feel bad about. If anything, you need to turn your attention to self-preservation, and start thinking about boundaries. If you make yourself available on-tap for someone who simply wants to use you as a one-way, passive receptacle for their misery, the friendship will quickly burn itself out.

I think you're absolutely right to insist that, if she's going to complain to you, she needs to actually avail herself of some of the advice you're offering. If she's ill or depressed, she needs to be seeing a doctor or counsellor - not you. If she's in an abusive situation, she has a certain responsibility to get herself out of that situation when someone else offers her the means to do so.

I've developed a variety of ways to talk about this. One of the more useful is, "you're making it very difficult for me to help you". If she has no apparent interest in changing her situation and simply wants you as a sympathetic ear, then you should accede to this but set limits in order that you don't become exhausted by her. At the beginning of meetings or 'phone calls, explain that you only have X amount of time to listen. Try to ensure that you talk about you as much as you talk about her; if you don't, you'll grow resentful, and your friendship will fail.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:05 / 08.12.04
Ha.

That's what I tried to say, but managed to do it in a far less eloquent fashion.
 
 
Ganesh
21:08 / 08.12.04
You were perfectly eloquent, Olulabelle. I'm going to use "Yes, but..." Syndrome...
 
 
Papess
22:10 / 08.12.04
Thank you everyone for responding with your advice and support. Some of it was quite sincere and useful.

I have talked to her and apologised for causing her more distress in her life. She forgave me, no issue. I told her I love her and that I want to help her, but I need her to help herself. She seems resigned to her situation, and maybe just needs me to listen as a friend. I know I shouldn't try to force her to change her situation, no matter how frustrating it is to hear about. It seems like such a waste to me.

Ganesh, I thank you first off. As for her health, she is a cancer survivor and has numerous other ailments that I cannot recall at this time. I know she needs specially prescribed insoles for her shoes due to some condition, and she takes many painkillers for the it. She has been perscribed sleeping pills and activan in the past as well. Yesterday, she was crying uncontrollably on and off, hence my heightened concern.

I will take your advice about keeping my own sanity, Ganesh, because I don't want to spoil our friendship by becoming exhausted. Very good advice I would like to add.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:17 / 08.12.04
Can't really offer much in the way of advice (in a similar situation myself, and if I knew how to deal with it I wouldn't be) but here's wishing you strength.

"Yes, but" syndrome. That's fucking perfect.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:35 / 08.12.04
It makes you think, doesn't it?

He was fabulous with the sound advice was my Dad.

Not to hijack this thread, but it's interesting how many people can relate to being on the other side - to being the "Yes but'er's" rather than the ones that have to hear it.

Once I spent a whole day meticulously detailing all my problems, and in the end my Dad did exactly what you did, Barbelillith. He said, "I'm not going to listen to you anymore, because all you're doing is 'Yes but..'ing." And he actually got up and went home. I remember being horribly upset at the time. But then I thought about it and I saw he was completely right, I was making excuses.

Now I am hyper-aware of doing that and actually if you notice you have a tendency towards thinking that way, just the fact of being aware of it helps you to stop doing it. Instead of fronting up reason's for not doing things, what happens is you begin to think problems through more clearly and sometimes you actually do something about the issue instead.

'Yes but...'ing is the simple way out, you see. It's fairly easy to present excuses as to why we cannot address a problem. Far harder and so much more wise to consider the problem with some sort of perspective - not instantly call it as unsolveable, and make a deliberate choice in order to fix it.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
22:36 / 08.12.04
At the group home I work at, the resident are sick of how I don't allow them to use the word "But" when explaining their actions, because "BUT" is how you tell me what I want to hear and then give your excuse.

BUT stands for Behold the Underlying Truth.

I'd like to clean my room, but I am late for school (and so on).

And yes, I AM a pain in the ass.
 
 
Ganesh
22:37 / 08.12.04
Hmm, okay. So she might conceivably be staying in an abusive relationship for reasons connected with her physical health? Because, possibly, the sheer amount of work involved in detaching oneself from a familiar arrangement, however crappy, might overwhelm her? If that's the case, it's difficult - but if you're offering a place to stay and a supportive shoulder, the onus still falls upon your friend to at least consider that avenue.

If it's unlikely that she's ever going to do that, I think you need, perhaps, to make explicit the boundaries of your mutual friendship. You're there if she decides she's ready to make changes; if not, your resources are finite, and you need to conserve them, for both your sakes.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:40 / 08.12.04
Yeah, my alcohol counsellor is very fond of pointing out whenever I'm making shit excuses ("well, I'll try to not drink for the next three days, but I've got a party to go to on Saturday, so maybe next week would be better" etc).
My "yes, but" friend never used to take her medication "because it wasn't natural", never a problem she seemed to have with any other drugs, including the painkillers she'd regularly try to off herself with.
 
 
Papess
23:18 / 08.12.04
Yes, I believe you are correct, Ganesh. She stays in the relationship because of the work it would take to leave. It is difficult and I suppose I have done all I can do, I just have to accept that.

...and you need to conserve them, for both your sakes.

Yes, and for my son too.

Stoats, she actually does the same thing with some of her medication, saying she doesn't have enough cash to cover them for herself, yet manages to indulge in quite a bit of illicit drugs. *sigh*
 
 
Ganesh
23:26 / 08.12.04
Kick that zero to tha curb, sistah!

Ahem.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
07:53 / 09.12.04
Looking at this from another angle, your efforts may not be in the best direction. I would imagine that if your friend were to go to a therapy or counselling session then you would be a name that gets mentioned quite alot and frankly, despite the best of intentions, you may be more of a hinderance than a help.

I want to be absolutely clear first of all that as expressed above you should be highly commended for your support for this friend and dedication to being there for her. Very few of us could match up to that level of commitment and you should be proud of yourself. However, there is little sanity in repeating a pattern of behaviour expecting a different result. In essence you appear to be providing this input into her life which allows her to perpetuate this "Yes, but..." mentality in comfort. By offering a constant stream of solutions you could well be giving fantasy material what inhibits her from pursueing a real out. This is regardless of the viability of any solutions you offer.

What I would advise is that you change from sympathy to empathy and stop giving any solutions.

If she expresses a problem, and she will if you are her shoulder of choice, then agree that it is bad/unfair or whatever. Then go on to ask her what she's going to do about it. She is likely to say that she can do nothing about it and you need to follow up with either a "why not" or refute this claim. Of course she can do something about it. Promote her right to a better quality of life and in essence turn the tables on her and start yes butting right back. You've already offered solutions, there's no point in repeating them unless she actually asks for them.

Most likely she'll revert to the old standard of "you don't understand". The response to this should be, "So tell me, I'm your friend and I'm here for you."

It may seem a bit harder on her at a time when she least needs it but challenging may be just what she needs. On top of that you aren't going to be as exhausted by her.

This may not be the most sound psychiatric advice but in your situation this is what I have done (with less severe cases) and I'd do it again because it does seem to work.
 
 
Ariadne
15:23 / 09.12.04
Oh, god, I am so guilty of this. I'm having a whole self-awaria moment to myself here.

Not always, I don't think, but I have been a bit of a whinge-monster recently.

Do you feel you can point it out to her, Barbelillith? Show her (kindly) what she's doing, and how it's stopping her from fixing things?
 
 
ibis the being
15:37 / 09.12.04
Could she be suffered from fibromyalgia or some similar pain disease? I ask because her symptoms sound v. familiar - my dad has fibromyalgia and has had to use pain medication, sleep aids at times, and expensive orthodic insoles. The reason I ask is because though not much is known about fibromyalgia & chronic fatigue syndrome (the first is often misdiagnosed as the latter, & sometimes they co-exist), it's believed they can be triggered by psychological and/or physical stress or trauma. Though the physical symptoms are very real and debilitating, there is probably some psychological investigation or treatment needed as well. However, I'm just speculating - have you asked her what ails her? Is there a reason you haven't?

"If you are not going to do anything to change your situation, or even try one of my suggestions, then I do not want to hear you complain to me anymore about your life anymore."

I hope that when you apologized, you didn't 'take it back.' Because you did mean what you said, didn't you? And it was a fair thing to say. Your friend's suffering doesn't legitimize a one-way friendship. You're doing her the kindness of listening to her endless woes - the least she could do, as a friend, is say, "You have a point, maybe I'll try that," even if ultimately she's not able to. The fact that she doesn't do that makes it sound to me, and other people here as you've seen, like there's some element of manipulation (of you) going on.
 
 
Papess
16:22 / 09.12.04
Ariadne, I think we must all have times in our lives when we do this, feeling overwhelmed by seemingly impossible situations. The metaphor that arises for me is, it is like being caught in a claw spring trap, and the only way out of it is to chew one's limb off. So, rather than the pain of chewing one's limb off and being free from the trap and healing from it, one opts to just bear the situation and howl and moan about the pain of it.

I think the way I get out of situations where I might yes, but... is simply to identify what needs to be changed and just try something different....anything actually. Preferrably something that works, but if it doesn't, that is ok...the point is to move, change, stir it up. Something will present itself eventually. It seems to me like a fear of change and the unknown; being accustomed with the "devil you know", and paralyzed with fear by "the devil you don't".

I don't have any real advice that would be universal, all I know is how I deal with it. I dig deep within myself and jump into the next pool. If that situation is shit too, at least I know I have the wherewithal to get myself out of it, as had proved to myself by jumping the first time. And you know what they say about the first jump, right?

Ganesh: Your last comment is disturbing me. *eek*

And please everyone, I thank you, but I really shouldn't be commmended or patted on the back for any of this. There is quite a bit if self-preservatory interest here, as I attract people like this to me often and want to learn how to deal with them so that I don't loose my friends and can bear the pain of watching their slow suicide without tossing them. Thank you for the kind words, but I don't feel all that wonderful about this. It may even be very selfish in some ways. As Imminent Danger put it, I want to promote her right to a better way of life. It's kinda pushy...hmm?

Promote her right to a better quality of life and in essence turn the tables on her and start yes butting right back

Oh, OTOH Imminent Danger, this seems devilishly effective method, although it could backfire horribly. Anticipate the "yes, buts", and shoot down my own suggestions first. Hmm, doubt I could execute that well, however.

Or, did you mean start "yes butting" myself about my issues? Ooh, I can't stand to hear myself say that, although I have of course, in the past.

My current favourite "yes, but" is, Yes, but...there has to be a solution.
 
 
Papess
16:32 / 09.12.04
Ibis, I think you've hit the nail on the head there with fibromyalgia & chronic fatigue syndrome.
 
 
modern maenad
16:58 / 09.12.04
Two thoughts: do you know any other women who've been through similar things and come out the other side? If so, setting up a meet over coffee/food could be an idea (though would depend massively on their respective personality types). Secondly, and I don't want to scaremonger, but are there any child protection issues here? Is her husband good to the children? Could she be pursuaded to go to counselling and sort herself out for their sake?? Finally, would like to echo comment that you have to look after yourself, and try not to be supportive in such a way that implicitly condones her behaviour/choices. Good luck to you both.
 
 
ibis the being
17:17 / 09.12.04
Thinking more about this, though her marital/familial situation does make it sound like she's self-defeating, I want to throw another possibility out there (just to confuse you further, sorry!) since you've said it is probably FM or CFS that your friend has.

Being so close to someone with fibromyalgia, I've learned that sufferers of this disease and/or CFS often have tried absolutely everything, and hearing "helpful" suggestions of any kind can be terribly frustrating. And it is really common for sufferers of those diseases to feel that other people "don't understand." One of the maddening aspects of these illnesses is that there are apparent, though rather intangible, physical symptoms - pain, sensitivity to cold, sleep loss, depression - but no observable physiological disfunction. Most people with FM or CFS have been to several doctors, and have been told by at least one or two that their symptoms are "in their heads" or "just stress" or something else dismissive. Another common experience is to have gotten their hopes up for a "cure" to these incurable diseases over and over, only to be dashed again. They visit doctors, homeopaths, masseuses, a myriad of experts who claim to have the answer, and no one does. And the final salt in the wound is that for many FM/CFS sufferers, opiates or synthetic opiates (morphine, oxycontin, methadone) are the only way to manage the pain, and in the end they're accused of drug addiction.

These kinds of experiences make such people extra resistant to advice, "help," and even expressions of empathy, because they've been let down so many times, and often just feel worse afterward. They exist in a world of suffering that never ends.

I know that sounds like a hopeless situation, and if you feel hopeless, Barbelillith, then you do have some idea of how your friend feels. Over the years I've had to learn that I have no helpful for suggestions for my dad, the best I can do is listen when he's feeling bad, and show optimism when he's feeling better.

I do have one last bit of advice, unwelcome as it may be to her. Fibromyalgia (and perhaps CFS - I know less about it) is not a muscular disease, but rather a neurological disease in which, basically, the brain transmits sensations like touch and cold as PAIN. Some doctors believe certain antidepressants help with the neurological aspect of the disease, as well as the depression that naturally accompanies constant pain - my father took Paxil for a while, and did feel better. Ultimately he went off it because he felt it was too emotionally numbing, but that's a personal choice your friend might consider.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:18 / 09.12.04
Poor dear. These people are so hard, so frustrating to deal with... you go insane worrying about them, and they never lift a finger to help themselves, and you just want to take them by the shoulders and shake sense into them... I have a friend like this - oddly enough, a man in this case. He seems to be willing to take any kind of abuse, and he's a champion "Yes, but"-er. Very intelligent, very articulate, rationalizes so well that you find yourself nodding your head in agreement at his well-reasoned arguments for Not Changing Anything. Rrrrgh.

There definitely seems to be a comfort-level issue there. Everyone I've known with this problem came out of a family culture that was similarly screwed up. If it's what you're used to, it's what you think is "normal", even if "normal" makes you unhappy. Unhappy = "normal". Bad imprint.

I have nothing to add to the excellent advice you've already gotten, BL. It sounds like the best thing you can do is try to be supportive without driving yourself mad, and definitely be there for her if she ever comes to her senses and tries to change anything...

Best of luck, dear...
 
 
Ganesh
23:17 / 09.12.04
While I'm sure people are trying to help here, I'd caution against too much online 'diagnosis'. I've had little experience of fibromyalgia since my junior doctor days, but I do know chronic fatigue. It's a slippery diagnostic entity at the best of times (and I'm talking face-to-face consultation) to say nothing of attempting to treat it. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, folks; just beware of giving and/or accepting too much specific illness advice over the Internet.
 
 
HCE
00:13 / 10.12.04
Sorry for the sort of simplistic post, but I'd like to offer that one thing I found very helpful when I was in a state similar to your friend's was that two people I respected greatly told me that they weren't worried about me, and that they had every confidence I'd be fine once I was done being miserable.

If you've gotten used to your suffering, whatever it is, it can be a lovely shock to hear that there's somebody you aren't worrying half to death. Perhaps you could be not only a soft shoulder, but also a source of some sunlight and fun for your friend? If she cannot or will not accept your home as a haven perhaps your company can be a kind of respite.

I wish both of you the best.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
05:55 / 10.12.04
Ah confidence, that's what I was getting ready to get to. Helping people in this situation by instilling as much confidence in them as you can is one of the only ways I think there is to be helpful. I see hundreds of women in my job, and there often develops a real priest/confessional relationship just because of the nature of things. I used to run myself ragged trying to find solutions for huge problems only to be rebuffed by the whole "but..." thing. There starts also to be a real saviour crisis which made me feel I'd failed and feel more responsible for the person's failures than was necessary. It can become a complete circle of ego battles which is all very useless, and causes much more harm than good. After years of frustration and irritation, I learned finally that as someone has already said, empathy is better help than sympathy and that the only tiny little thing one can do to actually help is help the sad person feel better about him/herself. Self confidece is a great healer and it is often the main ingredient an abused(or sick or depressed,etc.) person is lacking. Inspiring self confidence is not without its own challenges but even the smallest little things do build.
Still, you must come to a conclusion that you do not know the details of this woman's life and never will, and you cannot be the one power which makes her suddenly see the light and change direction. She can only do it for herself.
You said she seems like she might become depressed, but it sounds as if she's already firmly rooted in serious depression. This as everyone has sort of said can be very draining and tiresome for you. I see depression as a spreading vapour which can radiate from its host and take over ever more and more victims. Do protect yourself. Obviously you can do more to pass on self confidence to your friend if you are healthy minded and prove a good example. And try not to expect too many results because clearly spoilt expectations undermine not only your friend, but you as well.
Sweet Barbelilith, and everyone who wants to make things better for those who have it bad, love on you.
 
 
Ganesh
07:05 / 10.12.04
... it sounds as if she's already firmly rooted in serious depression

Well, we're aware that she sounds markedly unhappy and has spent at least one day being very tearful. As yet, we've little evidence either way regarding the signs and symptoms necessary to diagnose actual clinical depression, much less serious (by which I'm assuming you mean moderate-to-severe) "firmly rooted" depression.

Again, no disrespect - I know you're being helpful, and you may be quite correct in your supposition - but I still think we should be wary of online diagnosing. Life's medicalised enough...
 
 
ibis the being
22:21 / 10.12.04
While I'm sure people are trying to help here, I'd caution against too much online 'diagnosis'. I've had little experience of fibromyalgia since my junior doctor days, but I do know chronic fatigue. It's a slippery diagnostic entity at the best of times (and I'm talking face-to-face consultation) to say nothing of attempting to treat it. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, folks; just beware of giving and/or accepting too much specific illness advice over the Internet.

All due respect, I was not attempting to diagnose. Just elaborating on an illness that Barbelillith says her friend may already be diagnosed with, since I'm about as familiar with it as one can be without having it.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
05:34 / 11.12.04
Of course you are right Ganest in saying that life has been medicalized enough. I agree. I would point out that I was trying to point out that at this juncture in the tidbits of info available, my concern is more for Barbelilith really. The friend may be a lost cause(referring only to thread title), but Barbelilith certainly is not. Kind interference/intervention can become a painful offering.
 
 
Papess
17:51 / 11.12.04
Some responses back...

modern maenad: Two thoughts: do you know any other women who've been through similar things and come out the other side?

Just me, for certain. At least in the city I am in, as I have not got to know anyone quite that intimately in the short while I have been here. It's a lovely idea though for other people who are trying to help out a friend or two in this situation and state of mind.

Ibis: I do have one last bit of advice, unwelcome as it may be to her. Fibromyalgia (and perhaps CFS - I know less about it) is not a muscular disease, but rather a neurological disease in which, basically, the brain transmits sensations like touch and cold as PAIN.

Thank you for this information. I will look more into it. You are actually helping me understand my mother's condition more than my friend's. The biggest problem I have with figuring out what my firned has, is she goes to a french doctor who diagnoses her in french, and she cannot tranlate it to english. All I know is she does have, and has had, many physical ailments. Which, wholistically speaking, cannot be emotionally or mentally invigourating, to say the least.

Sekhmet, Dwight and Lilly, thank you for your kind words and love right back at ya!

The Good News...

Yes, I do have some. I think I must have shook her up a bit in my frustration last time. She is actually looking for solutions and not just complaining to me. I hope she follows through with her ideas for her eldest daughter to go to a vocational school and learn massage (which, the daughter is interested in), and I hope the daughter complies and does her schoolwork. Maybe she'll even be able to practice on her mom!

On that note, I got my friend an massage exercise ball for Christmas and gave it to her early. She has used it everyday since, and I think that little bit of time she has spent on herself everyday improves her spirits.

Also, I have asked her to help me with a little problem I have so that everything is not seemingly just one-sided. I think she appreciates the give and take that is happening now. It certainly makes her feel less helpless, since she really is helping me. She has a good heart, she is just so worn out and taken for granted at the moment. I think she just might come around though. It's a start, anyway.
 
 
lekvar
18:45 / 11.12.04
I hope I'm not jumping the gun here, but three cheers for a happy ending!
 
 
Papess
20:54 / 11.12.04
Well, not quite an ending yet, Lekvar. However, I do believe she is making a go of changing her way of thinking. I think it is more like a start.

Some great advice in this thread has given me lots of help too.
 
  
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