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Where are all the Magic Items?

 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
10:26 / 25.07.01
Magician type friends of mine always claim that technology isn't really distinct from magic, that the delineation we use between mytical & mundane, is inappropriate.
And while that point holds in many ways, if techno can be seen as a dominant & active branch of magic, it has a unique quality which defines it.
Technology gives us items. A box with a button on it, you press the button and it activates, it works. You don't have to understand it to use it, or think of anything in particular. You could activate it accidentally whilst unaware of its existence and it would work just as well.

Early on in the book "MAGICK", Crowley describes how a practitioner could make a Lamp, a magical item which sheds light. Now I guess he's talking figuratively, but why should he be? Why, if it works, can you never do the simplest thing? Make a light. If sigils work, how come we can't make a Light sigil which, when charged, emits a glow? I'd hang it from the ceiling & use it to read by. But no.
I know some folks will be angered by this bullish outlook, but you do know what I mean. Why no magic items, ever, even the simplest - a sigil that accesses whatever energy its practitioners claim it acesses, then converts it to heat, or light, or kinetic. Why are we never allowed to have anything concrete, anything mundane? It's not enough to say we're dealing with such subtlety that it transcends the mundane - all the magicians in the world together can't make one lousy magic lamp between the lot of us.

Alternatively, if you have a magic item you can take this opportunity to stuff my words down my throat - I'd swallow.
 
 
Stephen
10:49 / 25.07.01
Because matches do that a lot easier.

Sigil magic seems to be concerned with altering probabilities to allow certain circumstances to manifest in given situations, they tend not to work unless you also set up conditions conductive to their manifestation, when they do work they tend to do so via the path of least resistance. Think of them more as a request to the universe, rather than a command.

If you were to 'charge' a sigil for some cash, the cash would be far more likely to manifest if you played the lottery every week and therefore gave it a route to travel through. It's highly unlikely that the bit of paper you've just drawn on and wanked over would just suddenly turn into a wedge of cash.

Someone once thought that it would be useful to be able to see in the dark, that person then applied his/her imagination to the task and came up with the torch, they then went off and figured out how to create it and bring that idea into the world, as miraculously as a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. One day the torch existed only in someones imagination, now hundreds of teenage magicians use them under the covers to illuminate their magickally empowered copies of Razzle (another magickal object of great power).

Buy a torch. They only cost a couple of quid.
 
 
Stephen
11:22 / 25.07.01
quote: a sigil that accesses whatever energy its practitioners claim it acesses, then converts it to heat, or light, or kinetic.

I don't think that sigil magic actually does work by tapping any sort of energy. I figure it either

a.)embeds an idea complex in your deep mind which you then unconsciously make happen through your actions in the world, not realising that you're doing so at the time, or understanding the processes by which it's come about.

or

b.) causes a ripple in the space/time continuum (whatever that is) which somehow affects probability and makes your sigilised outcome more likely to manifest as a material reality.

Whether there is any real discernable difference between these two 'explanations' is open to question.

Regardless of all that, it seems to be a lot easier to effect the unmanifest than the manifest.

Apologies if I sounded a bit cranky in my last post, but my point is: the manipulation of reality through magick is not a particularly exact science at the best of times, it tends to work through the path of least resistance, therefore if you cast a sigil for a light by your bedside, it's far more likely that the universe will provide you with a bedside lamp for your birthday, as opposed to tampering with the established laws of physics to answer your whim.

[ 25-07-2001: Message edited by: Ghost Doctor ]
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
11:44 / 25.07.01
Yeah, I know that I can buy a torch to see. Thanks anyway.
I still can't help feeling that magic as it stands is failing to deliver in this field. A torch runs out of batteries. Crowley's lamp is described as a sealed unit which emits light continuously forever.
What is it about reliable results which is inherently unmagical? Nothing, I suspect. We just aren't managing to realise a goal which should be attainable.
And the person who invented the torch didn't use any sigils, evocations or ritual magic - it may be miraculous, but it isn't very magical.
But I did get some reward from reading your response - the path of least resistance - and I know I'm being obtuse, but you know what I mean. I want a magic lamp and I want it now. No torches, no glowsticks, no flint and tinder. Just magic energy being transformed into light energy. No excuses, just mail it to me at the ususal address. I'll just hold my breath 'til it gets here.

[ 25-07-2001: Message edited by: the Humble Crab ]
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
11:54 / 25.07.01
Ok, and my apologies for writing my second post while you were posting yours - if its any consolation, that's as ascerbic as I can get.
Oh, but I don't have any prejudice - if sigils don't use energy reserves, I'll settle for conjurations, evocations, invocations, sex magic... but it must be a magic item. A nice staff or something.
 
 
Stephen
12:11 / 25.07.01
What's this "magic energy" that you seem to think exists though?

And what makes sigils and the various trappings of "magic" anymore magical than the fuses and circuits and arcane equations that go into making a torch?

quote: I want a magic lamp and I want it now. No torches, no glowsticks, no flint and tinder. Just magic energy being transformed into light energy. No excuses, just mail it to me at the ususal address. I'll just hold my breath 'til it gets here.

Why dont you try and make one then? Personally I couldnt care less about trying to duplicate effects that have already been achieved using the arcane language of electronics. What would be the point? I'll define Magic, for the purposes of this argument, as causing change to occur in accordance with will. We've already done it. We've invented the lamp. That's the mechanism that produces those effects. You want to cast a fireball as well? Cool. Perform the dark and forbidden rituals of employment and amass a large amount of mysterious talismans called money, learn how to contact the dangerous and mysterious beings known as arms dealers and exchange your talismans for a flame thrower.

You send me a physical electronic machine that can manipulate probability and contact multi-dimensional entities, and I'll send you your magical lamp.

Sigils and ritual are the technical machinery we have developed for causing these effects, in the same way that electronic components are the technical machinery we have developed for causing lights to come on and stay on according to our will.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
14:07 / 25.07.01
[To be serious for a moment] I do think the brain is a nice magic lamp, but mine isn't very bright. & it may also be an electrically based machine for affecting reality & contacting the other. [/To be serious for a moment]

I can pay. If that'll help.
Oh, and if I get to choose the colour - Green please.
 
 
Kobol Strom
15:40 / 25.07.01
What would convince you that its magic?
Would you be able to explain why it works to another scientist?Whats the use of a magic lamp that lets you read books when the lights too dim? -Why does your lamp not do something even better.Whats the coolest green lamp you can imagine?What does it provide you with that makes it special?How powerful does it have to be,to be truly an object of illumination?Who would part with a lamp that gave you what you truly willed,when money means so little.?
 
 
Mordant Carnival
16:18 / 25.07.01
This is an interesting point. I think we've all asked this question at one time or another.

My own theory is this: Magick alters certain aspects of reality. If I do a sigil for a new job, very few things have to change. I'm experienced, I'm in a city with plenty of work, and I'm registered with an employment agency so there's a nice, easy path for events to stroll down. All that has to happen is for my favourite client to get a sudden and totally flukey mass order for their product, so that they need the packing services of Ms. M. Carnival. Piece of cake.

If your sigil is to suddenly luminesce, I would say a lot of things have to change. The molecules of the paper would have to undergo some tremendous change at the atomic level, so that they became phosphorescent. To emit light continuously (unlike, say, Glo Stars which have to be photochemically charged with light to keep doing their Glo Star thang) an even more drastic change would have to take place, as the laws of physics would have to be persuaded to pop out for a curry while all this was going on. Obviously, the probability of this happening is a damn sight lower than that of my getting a new job.

Could we do it? If so, how?

The trouble with magick is that you need to work ard at it to get any results. Maybe if we could bosh away at it 24/7 we'd get a glow-in-the-dark sigil, but it's hardly likley to happen. Personally I have other calls on my time: work, cook, disabuse latin lover of his touchingly childlike belief in the Sock Fairy, study, get drunk, have a laugh, etc, etc. As far as I can see this is a good thing, as magickians who don't have to do these things seem to end up dead or on drugs or both.

Yes, the rewards of magick are way cooler than a green lamp, but it's still worth discussing.

(Incidentally, an ex-mage I used to know swore blind that one of his mates was able to make the air between his hands glow blue on at least one occasion. I don't think he was bullshitting me either.)
 
 
natural enemy
17:24 / 25.07.01
You are one dumb crab. If you had an energy source you understood that well it wouldnt be magic would it. It would be science. If you understood the way it worked and you could make them to order it would be technology. Magic is the stuff you can't understand on such a rational level. That's what it is. Magic is all the unquantifiable, ununderstandable stuff you can still use. If you use a kind of magic often enough, and we come to understand it, then it has become science.
 
 
Logos
01:53 / 26.07.01
Don't dis the crab.

We'd all like to know how to make a light-casting sigil, or the gesture that levitates, or the word that makes the golem walk.

Unfortunately, (unless someone wants to prove me wrong) we're limited to transcending space and time, communing with real and imagined entities, and using natural philosophy (or whatever kids today call it) to do the physical manipulation.

Still, I'll throw in a cursed dagger of ancient provenance for the first Barbelither to publish a working, supernatural method of producing light through the power of their mind, and maybe a little squiggly writing.
 
 
Wombat
01:53 / 26.07.01
So I spend time and effort creating a supernatural light and you curse me?
Bad deal.

I can`t show you a supernatural light. But I can show one to any six month old.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
11:05 / 26.07.01
Anybody ever seen a russian guy named ( I think ) Boris ( definitely )Levranenko - He does a sadhu/freak act which starts off innocuously enough, he raises & lowers his heart rate very quickly ( normal to under 10 then to over 180 within 60 secs ), holds his breath underwater for a good few minutes ...

Then, in swimming trunks & wet from the water tank, he does his bioelectic act. He lets local police representatives hit him with a Tazer. They have a voltmeter rigged up, they tazer the meter - it reads 50000 or whatever - then he lets them put the crackly electric bit on his bare chest, & he doesn't bat an eyelid. As if that wasn't impressive enough, then he makes tiny sparks jump from his figers by a conscious effort - enough to burn paper or sting people.

He does some other wierd stuff then like knock people over using chi, and pull a railway locomotive along by cables attatched to huge piercings right through his biceps, insane but not as miraculous as the electrical stuff.
It does make a visible spark, which is a light source ... but he can't do green.
 
 
The Mr E suprise
11:13 / 26.07.01
Hmm, I've seen a man knock someone over at range by "just grunting", though he was fairly knackered afterward.

Personally, I want to see a light sabre. not "beam of focused energry in a sword shape" but a magic stick that glows. Showing off, but hey, thats part of what magic is all about.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
13:19 / 26.07.01
This is making me think now.. (grunt.. )

Ghost Doctor:
"it's far more likely that the universe will provide you with a bedside lamp for your birthday, as opposed to tampering with the established laws of physics to answer your whim."
&
What's this "magic energy" that you seem to think exists though?
And what makes sigils and the various trappings of "magic" anymore magical than the fuses and circuits and arcane equations that go into making a torch?

kobol strom:
"What would convince you that its magic?
Would you be able to explain why it works to another scientist? "

Mordant Carnival:

"To emit light continuously ... an even more drastic change would have to take place, as the laws of physics would have to be persuaded to pop out for a curry.."


You've all made me realise that I've had this odd idea of how magic could work.

a) Science can calculate the 'total' amount of energy in the cosmos. With our best detectors, including all known matter & energy forms only accounts for say 30% of the total at best. So science knows only that there are vast fields of energy which it doesnt know anything about. ( I get this kind of stuff all from New Scientist, basically ).

b) Quantum physicists now observe particles that are effectively in two places at the same time. (see Magic/Quantum theory & Magic) A human brain operates on such subtle voltages that quantum phenomena can interact with its electrical patterns. So you can think a thought - it changes the state of a quantum particle in a neuron of your brain - the particle is in 2 places - the 2nd place is someone else's brain - it causes an electrical change facilitating a thought process .... bingo! You're all psychic.
Actually these phenomena would imply that all brains are cross-connected 8 ways from sunday in a constantly interacting field..to each other & who knows what else..

So I guess that I always thought that magic had something to do with your brain being able to interact with other energy fields - the quantum stuff provides just one feasible mechanism, there could be many.
Like an adept would, by consciously modulating thought, influence unknown forms of energy to transfer into the types we can perceive, like light or kinetic. And then maybe even make the site of the transfer an object ..

I appreciate the causality/probability type magic in a similar language - quantum phenomena also describe a multitude of realities dominated by probability, where your brain's interaction with quantum fields could explain how your thoughts appear to interact with reality so you seem to make certain outcomes more likely with your mind.


But I remain quietly convinced, somewhere deep down, that if I can just find the way, my mind can create energy & matter without "Breaking the laws of Physics", because I don't actually see a conflict between my crazed chaos magic outlook & New Scientist's.

PS GhostDoc : specifically, as you can see I don't think "magic" is more magical than fuses & circuits, quite the opposite in fact - but a lot of it is occult, that is secret knowledge, or arcane. I kind of agree with my Natural Enemy friend, if we could knock out magic lamps to order that would constitute a technology. But it's no bad thing if your best magic is so rigorously investigated, well understood & reliably repeatable that it's also good science.

And I found all of your comments to be most illuminating.

[ 26-07-2001: Message edited by: the Humble Crab ]
 
 
Mordant Carnival
16:42 / 26.07.01
quote:Originally posted by the Humble Crab:
Anybody ever seen a russian guy named ( I think ) Boris ( definitely )Levranenko



Oh, yeah... I was watcing daytime telly once and I caught a little of his "act."

I dunno, man. It all looked pretty kosher, but I'd like to go over the video with, say, Penn and Teller, before I bought into it.

[ 26-07-2001: Message edited by: Mordant Carnival ]
 
 
Frances Farmer
17:43 / 26.07.01
Perhaps your imagination and subconcious work together to a play a critical role in which of the many worlds we can select.

To offer an example : Let's assume that every book you've ever read, every possibility you've digested, and every conversation you ever had is recorded in an ostensibly inaccessible portion of your subconcious mind.

Let's suppose that sigils work with a combination of effects :

a ) Your mind (imagination) selects the easiest causal root for a chain of coincidence to utilize in order to to a reach a desired goal. All the variables (so-and-so has my resume, so-and-so might appeal to such-and-such way of phrasing a skill, party a may have just been promoted leaving a vacancy in slot b, and so on) are calculated, and the result is fed into your subconcious.

b ) Your concious mind 'feeds' the data it has so far to your subconcious mind. Your mind (subconcious) then strives to fill in the blanks by identifying possibilities in the myopic details your concious mind does not "remember" in order to select the most-likely world to acheive the desired result.

c ) A neuron is adjusted in your concious mind, since the most likely particle to trigger the desired result has been found, and your behaviours are slightly altered. The ripple effect ensues.

Over the course of this process, you have branched down numerous possible worlds, and found yourself on a path more likely to acheive the desired result.

Which leads to :

d ) You now exist in a world with a higher probability (the measure of how much more likely is a tricky thing) of yielding the aforementioned result.

In this cosmology, the primary purpose of utilizing a sigil lies in tricking your mind into avoiding negative thoughts and pitfalls which might derail this process and lead you to select path less likely or just as likely to acheive the desired result.

So, let's suppose a pheonomenon like spontaneous energy release (light) or telekinesis is in fact quite possible. The rub then lies in the fact that our minds - subconcious and concious combined -are unlikely to contain all of the variables necessary to choose a path with an acceptable likelihood of resulting in a miraculous occurance. The only antidotes to this situation, then, are both quite difficult to master. We either amass such a massive storehouse of scientific knowledge that we understand, somewhere in our minds, the particle-by-particle interactions necessary to acheive a [miraculous] result, and the coincidental (but most likely to occur) event necessary to begin the chain reaction in the first place, or we have such intense pure faith that there are literally no inhibitions or 'blocking' thoughts, and the ripple therefore automatically travels on so many tracks that it becomes unlikely that the possibilities released won't trigger the result. (In other words, you choose worlds not based on small collections of differences pertaining to your chain reaction, but rather, worlds with the largest amount of differences, in hopes that somewhere in there lies the most critical collection of variables.)

It is my position that humanity has in fact obtained the levels of faith necessary to trigger miraculous occurances, but has never amassed the knowledge necessary to manage the variable interactions. Since that amount of faith is generally the result of an extremely devoted or entirely un-critical mind, it only happens in the events of certain religious zealots or perhaps Taoists who have succeeded in mastering the art of emptying their minds of doubts - and just about all else, to boot. As a result, it's a rare cookie, indeed - and can easily be thrown off by something as seemingly trivial as the presence of non-believers ; who act as proximity 'blockers' for your ripple effect.

Basically, it's not that magick can't create these things - it's that we haven't gotten that far with it yet. However, since the advent of Chaos Magick, I find magicians have become more likely to amass scientific knowledge parellel to their magick theory. As a result, we may be on an accelerated track towards reaching this level of capability.

As circumstantial evidence for the 'blockers' and 'faith' concepts, I would cite the numerous incidents of miraculous group hallucinations under the influence of large amounts of LSD-25 and/or Psilocybin. It's possible that some of these incidents are in fact not hallucinations, and it is probable that these psychoactive substances serve to generate 'artifical pure faith' - which is troubling, as that can serve to interact both with hallucinegenic reality and consensus reality, thereby making it difficult to sift your results. The likelihood of these miraculous 'shared hallucinations' occured, as I'm sure many have observed, is less when there's a sober (and somber) individual present.

It's also possible that there is no objectifiable difference between hallucinegenic realities and consensus realities - particurally for one in that state of mind - and that the whole bit about having your third eye opened pertains to learning the habit of not seperating the two.

Myself, I think it'd be better to go the path of digesting enough information to manage the variables, as I think that it may well be difficult to predict the 'fallout' of the 'nuclear-bomb' effect that ensues when you've triggered than many causal chains, hoping that one comes out right.

Or, at least, that's what I think I think...
 
 
Rev. Jesse
02:00 / 27.07.01
Crab:

Crowley is talking in metaphor. The lamp doesn't replace a torch; it is a tool of illumination.

Compare Crowley's description in Book 4 with ones of the thousand-petaled lotus.

Reading it again it may also reference astral magic work or a microcosmic Kether/Sun, or even the goal of the magical work: "when the eyes of the Magus are fixed upon this lamp naught else exists."

I would bet, however, that crowley did not mean an eternal light for your fags.

Hine (?) also references a magic lamp, comparing it with a magic diary. I would classify that as an extension of the lamp, rather than the thing itself.


btw Dr. Ghost: I would say if you are charging cash and money with sigils you are better off investing it than playing lotto. Come to think of it, fiscal planners do magic everyday...


-Jesse

[ 27-07-2001: Message edited by: Rev. Jesse ]
 
 
6opow
08:05 / 28.07.01
quote:Originally posted by natural enemy:
You are one dumb crab. If you had an energy source you understood that well it wouldnt be magic would it. It would be science. If you understood the way it worked and you could make them to order it would be technology. Magic is the stuff you can't understand on such a rational level. That's what it is. Magic is all the unquantifiable, ununderstandable stuff you can still use. If you use a kind of magic often enough, and we come to understand it, then it has become science.


This is a huge can of worms (science, material reality, magick, and the connection) but leaving the worms for the fishes, we don't understand the fundamental stuff of science (i.e. energy-matter) at all. We can, and do, describe its behaviour, and attempt to derive generalized laws for its action and use, but at base we have no fuckin' clue what the energy is; that is, we do not have an, "...energy source [that we] under[stand] that well," we don't understand it at all.

Which is to say that the light in your room, and the glow of your monitor are magickal lights (to poke around in the can now that the worms are free).
 
 
SMS
16:28 / 28.07.01
quote:Originally posted by the godog:


This is a huge can of worms (science, material reality, magick, and the connection) but leaving the worms for the fishes, we don't understand the fundamental stuff of science (i.e. energy-matter) at all. We can, and do, describe its behaviour, and attempt to derive generalized laws for its action and use, but at base we have no fuckin' clue what the energy is; that is, we do not have an, "...energy source [that we] under[stand] that well," we don't understand it at all.

Which is to say that the light in your room, and the glow of your monitor are magickal lights (to poke around in the can now that the worms are free).


Unless you say, as I do, that asking what somethin is is equivalent to asking how it interacts with other things. Beyond this, nothing even has a property of being. On a macroscopic level, this is like saying "we undertand that this object behaves in every way like a chair, but we cannot tell whether it is a chair or an elephant. In fact, there is no difference between a chair and an elephant that behaves in every way like a chair (by every way, I mean just that, from the way it sits on the ground to the way it acts when you toss it against the wall to the way it behaves when you take the covering off). And there is no difference between saying we know many ways about how matter behaves, and we know many things about what matter is.
 
 
6opow
06:42 / 29.07.01
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:


Unless you say, as I do, that asking what somethin[g] is is equivalent to asking how it interacts with other things. Beyond this, nothing even has a property of being.


You know, I'm very partial to what you are saying here. Being does seem to be manifest in relation; that is, without the relations among discrete units of being, there would be nothing (of course nothing = everything).

quote:On a macroscopic level, this is like saying "we undertand that this object behaves in every way like a chair, but we cannot tell whether it is a chair or an elephant. In fact, there is no difference between a chair and an elephant that behaves in every way like a chair.

No I don't think this is a fair comparison. We have fairly good ideas about what an elephant is, and as well, we are reasonably confident about chairs; however, we don't have reasonable ideas about what energy-matter is--we have only layers of logical symbolism which serve to harness and manipulate matter-energy. The downside of that is that the language of logic is empty of content: it expresses only the same truth over and over in different variations.

quote:And there is no difference between saying we know many ways about how matter behaves, and we know many things about what matter is.

Although I am in agreeance with you about the importance of relations (without relation there is no being); however, there is an epistemic difference between how a thing behaves and what it actually is. I do not think that interaction--the word you initialy use--and behaviour are the same thing; thus, we can observe behaviour through interaction.

[ 29-07-2001: Message edited by: the godog ]
 
 
Mordred Malificient
21:00 / 17.08.01
Hello I am new on this list
But I will offer my opinion any how
but first what is magick, what are the laws of physics what is a sigil anyhow

twenty pounds of flax
 
 
madfishmonger
04:18 / 05.04.04
Hey here's a take on actual real life working magick items. Magic 8 ball, don't believe me buy one. tarot cards. books (i've heard the pursuit of magick described as changeing your own mind, books help in that a lot). that's all i can think of right now. maybe more later.
 
 
EvskiG
16:41 / 05.04.04
Here's my take on the issue:

"Magick" isn't D&D Magic. Sorry.

Yes, magic can seem to accomplish some pretty freaky things. Between ceremonial magic and yoga, I've had some weird visions, seen some truly amazing coincidences, and have managed to dramatically change my thought processes, perceptions, body, and personal life for the better (and sometimes the worse).

I've seen a cursed person's life fall apart in the space of a week. I've seen sick people mysteriously get better. And I've seen some pretty freaky hallucinations, drug-induced and otherwise.

But I've never seen magic break the laws of physics in any objectively provable way. No levitation. No bilocation. And no glowing light sigils. Sorry.

Of course, I could be wrong.
 
 
charrellz
18:04 / 05.04.04
Have you checked the tomb of horrors?

Magick items are possible, just maybe not to the extent people wish they were. I myself have a rudimentary magickal item. I have a staff that I've had since I was 10 or so. One day, I started tracing runes and sigils on it and doing simple energy tranferences into the staff. A couple years later, and the staff seems to radiate energy. Friends with a magickal side to them notice it even when I haven't said anything about it. It works great if I'm having trouble focusing or if I'm feeling creeped out by something. I just grab ahold of the staff and things seem clearer.

Basically, magick is there. Both in the world and in objects. True, you may not be able to throw a fireball from your favorite ring, but you can use a necklace for increased "luck" or "health"
 
  
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