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Selling my soul

 
 
eye landed
10:06 / 26.11.04
on a purely virtual, theoretical, hypothetical level...is it possible for me to 'sell my soul'?

assuming price of purchase is no object, could a person--freely or otherwise--give up their eternal, invulnerable self for ever in perpetuity? would a soul-deal made by a living person be valid beyond their death? can a soul-seller be reincarnated, and how would the process differ from someone with a 'free' soul?

what is a process by which a soul could be sold or otherwise lost? who or what has the power to bind a soul and why would they want mine or yours? is it possible to damage or destroy a soul, whether a soul that one owns or somebody elses? how would a living person change after selling their soul? would it be apparent to close friends and family? to adepts?

is there any situation in which it would be ethical to sell ones soul? christianity seems to rest on the idea of selling ones soul to jesus to prevent its loss to other parties. could this ever be a good idea? do pagans, vodouns, and others who work with gods feel that the gods are hungry for their souls, or that their gods protect them from damage or danger to their souls? do yogis and others who practice transcendental magic see themselves as exercising their eternal soul, and does this exercise help their soul resist unwelcome incursion?

i formulated these questions with the idea of a soul as eternal: ubiquitous individual divinity. the selling of the soul is such a powerful motif that i figure it must mean something, but i boggle at the implications of having such power over something i dont consider myself to own.

my usual definition of a soul is the part that survives death--more bluntly, the memory and relics of life. a near-synonym with 'legacy'. this would make soul-selling a mundane process that we all go through every day: by wearing clothes with logos or slogans, by purchasing and eating branded food, and just by agreeing with others in conversation. but in this case the soul is imperfect anyway (original sin), so whats the loss of a few more pieces?

im interested in answers based on any concept of soul. i do already know theres a market for old james brown records, so nobody else should bring that up.
 
 
---
10:41 / 26.11.04
I don't know if it's possible to sell your soul. Maybe it is, but there's no way I believe that you can sell it for eternity, or that there's a power in the universe that can possibly claim the right to a 'soul' for ever.

I think it's possible that a soul could be sold until the next evolutionary leap/universal shift/progression, but whatever the circumstances I think it could only be temporary, that goes for any possible 'hell' aswell.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:52 / 26.11.04
there's no way I believe that you can sell it for eternity, or that there's a power in the universe that can possibly claim the right to a 'soul' for ever.

Cool, in that case I'll buy yours off you for a pound.
 
 
---
12:08 / 26.11.04
Fiver.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:20 / 26.11.04
Done.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:21 / 26.11.04
Depends what you mean by "soul" doesnt it. Different cultures have fairly different takes on it. For instance, the Ancient Egyptians, or at least the popular western conception of them, believed we have seven of the fuckers, which all do different things, fulfill different functions, and each go to a different place after we die. In Haitian Vodou there are about five different components of a person, their Gros Bon Ange, Ti Bon Ange, Mete Tete, Z'etoile and Corps Cadaver. Each of them does something different as well, some of the soul merges with a kind of universal consciousness, some of it joins the ancestors, some of it can stick around as a ghost or spirit, and this is probably the bit that can be "bought" and "sold" in the same sense that a ghost can be bottled.

I'm not sure whether the idea of "selling your soul to the devil" has any historical precedent as a magical operation, outside of witch confessions extracted under torture and the Dr Faustus story. You can certainly make a pact with an entity or spirit, but selling your soul is a bit of a stupid thing to put down on the table. Some nice cakes and a bottle of wine might be an alternative option. Having said that, if anyone is sceptical about the existence and value of "the soul", please PM me as I'll buy them off you for a pound a shot.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:32 / 26.11.04
Also, I don't think James Brown should be excluded from this debate, or in fact, any debate.
 
 
LykeX
12:33 / 26.11.04
Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the lord my soul to take

I've always thought this prayer was seriously creepy. Of course listening to Metallica doesn't help any.

Where does the idea that you don't have a soul, but can develop or acquire one fit in? RAW mentioned it. Gurdjieff, I think. If you don't have a soul yet, can you still sell it? Does that mean that you owe one, in case you should get one in the future.

What about the idea of repentance. Does it mean that simply regretting the deal automatically cancels it? If so, do you still keep whatever you got from whomever you sold it to?
Gypsy's post also brings up an interesting point, can you sell your soul to another human or only to some superhuman entity? If you buy a soul from someone else, what can you do with it? If you have sold your soul and buy someone else's do you become them? Or is a soul just a kind of passport to heaven, but not your actual self?

Lotsa questions no answers, but I had to get all that down beforee I forgot.
 
 
madhatter
13:35 / 26.11.04
(1)

there is a collective of artists in vienna that bought souls right in front of st. peters cathedral (see "www.monochrom.at") for one day until the police found a way to drive them away. now they are have a "stock market of souls" somewhere on their website (which is pretty big, so good luck!).

(2)

for my part, i'm just not sure about stuff like "soul" or "god". there just seems no proof or consistent argumentation in either way.

BUT i think we can know for sure
(a) that the human mind (in it's broadest sense) is apt to far more then "natural" sciences believe and
(b) that terms like "individual" (as used here for the description of what a soul is) make sense only in special periods of history that bring about a special kind of subjectivity. the concept of "me" is not a clear, or natural thing.

i believe that different social notions of what-I-am craete different kinds of "souls".

(3)

as I understand the "deal with the devil", it is just one out of two possible ways you got in a dualistic world - with a dualistic notion of the self - to get near the "other side":
either you strip yourself from the necessaritys of society (bargaining, for example) before passing the mystic process, in which case you deal with "angels"/"god". or you don't: you are unable to switch off the logic of "if I get this, I must give that": you find yourself before/in the same reality, but this time you have to interact with "demons"/"satan".

a good example to me: if you have a revolution, it is "good" for those who want change, who are able to try to work out new frames of behaviour and trade and so on, but it is "the end of the world" for those who insist that their shareholders and dishwashing machines are important.

get away from the logic of trade when dealing with the other side, and you do not have to "sell" anything.

as to permanence: if you believe in it, you're stuck there.
 
 
madhatter
13:39 / 26.11.04
sillysillysilly....vienna cathedral is not st.peter's, but st.stephen's.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:01 / 26.11.04
get away from the logic of trade when dealing with the other side, and you do not have to "sell" anything.

Nah, the notion of trade in dealing with "the other side" doesn't automatically presuppose the "get something/lose something" narrative of the Faustian pact. Sacrifice, in a magical context, means "to make sacred" not "to give something up". When you make a sacrifice to the Gods it can be an open handed giving of something, maybe in return for a favour or maybe just to strengthen a relationship.

For instance, when you buy a round of drinks for your mates in the bar, you do it because you want to do it. It's assumed they will get a round in themselves at some point later on, but that's not the reason why you buy the drinks. And if they don't happen to get a round in, you don't feel like you've somehow lost something, as it'll probably work itself out in some other way later on. However, if one person consistantly accepted drinks and never bought any themselves, a problem would likely occur pretty quickly. The idea of trade, in one sense or another, is pretty integral to all relationships, not just relationships with deity. If you approach a relationship in terms of getting stuff and losing stuff, then you're likely to have experiences that confirm that's how things work. But it's got more to do with a twatish attitude to relationships and social interaction, than anything else.
 
 
Mug Chum
16:30 / 26.11.04
What about a paradigm where you consider each Peter Carroll's self as a "soul"?

Or making the "selling soul" bit as a parallel of having your soul/self destroyed to bits by tibetan chod demons as your higher-self watches?

I mean... Am I way off here? Lately I've been thinking a lot on that "soul as imagery captured by cameras" like Grant Morrison suggests. How about it? Isn't it workable with "giving away 'soul' for something bigger"?
 
 
madhatter
16:43 / 26.11.04
i agree with you about the notion of 'sacrifice' = 'make something sacred'.

anyhow, i feel that the example you give for that 'trade be everywhere' somehow misses our point, the 'price of the soul'. as i understand it, the buying-rounds-in-the-bar-situation (as many others) is one where the logic of trade is already overcome: it is one layer of many that together build one social context.

in our case, as i understood it, it is questioned whether the layer of interaction 'trade' is fit to be the BASE for a magical operation.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:41 / 26.11.04
When I was in 9th grade I went around school for a day just asking people to give me their souls. I suppose they thought this might make them popular to be seen to do. I collected around 25 but promptly lost the paper. I'll have to raid my astral larder at some point to see if they're still in the back somewhere, hopefully I remembered to tupperware them. SHit lasts forever in those things. I do remember that the major payoff of this "operation" however was that one person had an anxious pang after signing his immortal soul over to me and tried to get it back; for this I managed to extort from him one package of Skittles (US$1.25). Later I tried this trick on a friend's little brother in front of their fundie mother while we were getting a car ride over to his house to watch Natural Born Killers and play guitar. No Skittles were had, no rainbow was tasted.
 
 
charrellz
22:57 / 26.11.04
Ahh the glory days of the highschool soul market. I could usually get them off people for a dollar, then I would sell to a friend for $3, he would then sell to a guy at the other highschool for $5. I don't even want to know what that guy wanted them so bad for.

I think western culture thinks of the soul as a sort of intangible 'you' that isn't really noticed until you die, cause then it's all there is. Makes me think of a homunculus, or maybe that's my soul telling me to get back to work on the cognitive science paper...More thoughts later if I get a chance.
 
 
Unconditional Love
04:00 / 27.11.04
if the soul is cosindered as that which is of the absolute and the absolute is considered to be all things manifested in a variety of different forms that are a unity. since there is no seperation, no matter how hard you try, wether you be demon, angel, god, goddess or human you are dealing in different shades of the absolute, each bit bought and sold is the undifferentiated unity nothing lost nothing gained.

heh.
 
 
eye landed
08:31 / 27.11.04
Gypsy Lantern: The idea of trade, in one sense or another, is pretty integral to all relationships, not just relationships with deity.

(is 'deity' analagous to 'laity'?)

here and elsewhere, you treat your relationships with deity quite casually. do you think that the powers you deal with have anything to do with your soul? do you think your mates at the bar have anything to do with your soul?

speaking of mates...i live in canada, and to me a mate is a partner like a wife or husband. i think there is a difference between a casual relationship and a 'mated' relationship. mated doesnt mean married or even consummated by sex--especially if youre eight years old. its a willful blurring of boundaries to create a single symbiosis. seems to me it must involve some kind of soul-sharing, if not selling. this kind of relationship is possible with nonhuman powers as well, though maybe not more than one.
 
 
---
12:53 / 27.11.04
Done.

Undone. I've just remembered that I already traded it with the most terrible sorceress that ever lived for the lump sum of three cans of coke and two chocolate bars.


if the soul is consindered as that which is of the absolute and the absolute is considered to be all things manifested in a variety of different forms that are a unity. since there is no seperation, no matter how hard you try, wether you be demon, angel, god, goddess or human you are dealing in different shades of the absolute, each bit bought and sold is the undifferentiated unity nothing lost nothing gained.

I was thinking something like this the other day. Soul selling as parts of the one being moving to different parts of it's own body. It can't lose anything because in effect, it's only ever trading with itself.
 
 
akira
15:06 / 27.11.04
I tend to think of it in a romantic sort of way. "I'd sell my sole for a night with her", or "I'd sniff her shit till I turned white" is another good one. You know deep romantic expresions of the soul like that.
 
 
hashmal
21:39 / 27.11.04
People often ask me if I have any words of advice for young people.
Well here are a few simple admonitions for young and old.
Never intefere in a boy-and-girl fight.
Beware of whores who say they don't want money.
The hell they don't.
What they mean is they want more money. Much more.
If you're doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch,
Get it in writing.
His word isn't worth shit.
Not with the good lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.

Avoid fuck-ups.
We all know the type.
Anything they have anything to do with,
No matter how good it sounds,
Turns into a disaster.
Do not offer sympathy to the mentally ill.
Tell them firmly:
I am not paid to listen to this drivel.
You are a terminal boob.

Now some of you may encounter the Devil's Bargain,
If you get that far.
Any old soul is worth saving,
At least to a priest,
But not every soul is worth buying.
So you can take the offer as a compliment.
He tries the easy ones first.
You know like money,
All the money there is.
But who wants to be the richest guy in some cemetary?
Money won't buy.
Not much left to spend it on, eh gramps?
Getting too old to cut the mustard.

Well time hits the hardest blows.
Especially below the belt.
How's a young body grab you?
Like three card monte, like pea under the shell,
Now you see it, now you don't.
Haven't you forgotten something, gramps?
In order to feel something,
You've got to be there.
You have to be eighteen.
You're not eighteen.
You are seventy-eight.
Old fool sold his soul for a strap-on.

Well they always try the easiest ones first.
How about an honorable bargain?
You always wanted to be a doctor,
Well now's your chance.
Why don't you become a great healer
And benefit humanity?
What's wrong with that?
Just about everything.
Just about everything.
There are no honorable bargains
Involving exchange
Of qualitative merchandise
Like souls
For quantitative merchandise
Like time and money.
So piss off Satan
And don't take me for dumber than I look.


An old junk pusher told me -
Watch whose money you pick up.


-William S. Burroughs-
 
 
madhatter
10:29 / 28.11.04
fine one, hashmal!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:11 / 28.11.04
here and elsewhere, you treat your relationships with deity quite casually.

You fucking what? I take all of my relationships incredibly seriously, be they with deity or otherwise. I’m actually quite offended by that remark. You have no fucking idea of the extent to which I value my relationships with anyone.

And the term ‘mate’ is English for ‘friend’.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:28 / 29.11.04
Where did you get the notion that there is a soul?

It doesn't sound very original.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:02 / 29.11.04
original soul or second hand soul its all in the taste.
 
 
LykeX
15:47 / 29.11.04
If you commit a mortal sin, can you then buy another's soul and then just use that as your own, thus avoiding it?
I'm thinking of starting up a business: hustling children out of their untainted souls and selling them on to croocked politicians and crime king pins.

Do you have to be 18 to sign your soul off to someone else?
 
 
eye landed
12:12 / 03.12.04
Gypsy Lantern: I take all of my relationships incredibly seriously...

apologies. i meant you talk about them casually. for example, you compare your ritual intercourse to hanging out with mates at the bar. mates at the bar is serious, sure, but i would be willing to partake with a lot less forethought than if i was voking, if only because i am more used to it. i have extensive skills interacting with entities in the form of human bodies, far more sketchy skills with others. perhaps your equal treatment is meant to minimize such a weakness? my offensive remark wasnt meant to offend, but this is: there must be some good reason why you are so touchy and defensive about it.

i know what you mean by mates. i was trying to establish a dichotomy in relationships illustrated by the difference in meaning of the word 'mate' in north america versus britain and australia--a dichotomy that i think is important to your relationships as well as mine. perhaps if i hadnt offended you, you would have looked for meaning rather than stupidity.

now i only wish that you will answer my questions. i ask because you have previously delivered valuable insight on related matters.

wolfangel: if the soul is cosindered as that which is of the absolute and the absolute is considered to be all things manifested in a variety of different forms that are a unity. since there is no seperation, no matter how hard you try, wether you be demon, angel, god, goddess or human you are dealing in different shades of the absolute, each bit bought and sold is the undifferentiated unity nothing lost nothing gained.

obviously, the personal soul becomes obsolete after crucifiction of the ego. but in this life, one of my goals is to learn the appropriate level of possessiveness with regard to my (temporary) share of the absolute. the absolute doesnt care what i do with my soul. but i am the one asking the question.

its a bit like material property. nobody really 'owns' the earth or the objects and abstractions therin. but it is powerful on many levels to protect a share for my personal use. if i pay some money for, say, a hot 22-year-old whore, i dont really lose the money, since money is just a ridiculous social idea rather than a part of me. but my choice to use that money for sex instead of food or a nifty purple cape is an irrevocable leap into a future of diminished control. in the same way, if i keep my soul to myself, my potential power never diminishes. if i put my soul to use, i no longer have the option of putting it to a different use. do i have to 'use it up' to use it? once i die and/or ascend, it might not matter, but im not dead yet so it sure as shit matters to me.

regarding hashmals burroughs, perhaps it is wiser to give away the soul freely.

regarding LykeXs business plan, is a soul still untainted once its been exchanged for quantitative merchandise?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:47 / 03.12.04
for example, you compare your ritual intercourse to hanging out with mates at the bar. mates at the bar is serious, sure, but i would be willing to partake with a lot less forethought than if i was voking, if only because i am more used to it.

How did they get to be your mates in the first place? Because you built personal relationships with them and you continually put the effort in to maintain those relationships. Working with entities is about developing healthy working relationships, which in no sense means it is a casual or easy process. Perhaps a better analogy might be trying to make freinds with members of the Mafia. Your goal is a relationship, for them to think of you as part of the extended family, but it's not something you go into lightly or casually.

there must be some good reason why you are so touchy and defensive about it.

I'm defensive because the subtext of your post seemed to equate my approach of building close working relationships with diety, with a casual or lacksadasical attitude to said interaction. I find that assumption that these two positions are synonymous to be fairly offensive.
 
 
electric monk
15:01 / 03.12.04
now i only wish that you will answer my questions. i ask because you have previously delivered valuable insight on related matters.

Then you might want to tone it down a bit, s.h.e.r.m. I think there's something to be said for not taking one's interactions with the magic/dieties/entities/the transmundane too seriously outside of the ritual space. Helps one avoid obsession, for one thing.



As to the soul, I'd like to throw this concept into the mix: My view of the soul has been irretrievably colored by that one episode of 'The Simpsons' where Bart sells his soul to Milhouse. After the transaction takes place, Bart dreams of a place where all of Springfield's children are playing games with their souls (said souls being represented by translucent mirror images of the kids). Bart, not having a soul, gets left out of the fun and games and even picked on at one point. When they pair up to row their boats toward the Shining City on the Hill, Milhouse is able to sit back and rest at the bow of the boat while his soul and Bart's soul do all the rowing. Bart is left on his own, in the middle of a vast expanse of water rowing alone and going in circles, never even drifting nearer the City. If such a thing as a soul exists, that's as good a metaphor as I could ask for.

I guess what I'm saying is that the soul is an invisible helper, the best friend you ever had, and something that will never leave you unless you send it away.

So I suppose it's possible to sell one's soul, but it's something I would choose not to do.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:12 / 03.12.04
first off, i am the uber slacker 17 years long hard practice, and i take offense at that not being recognised. dont try to pass the title to somebody else.

and secondly the ego is the soul, and so is the body, nothing has to get crucified for it to become absolute since it all already is, there never was a divide or fall, they been lying and sending you up the garden path with a broom to sweep yourself away when you didnt have a self in the first place except that one you created anyway but it took a you to start creating it in the first place right?

otherwise in the beginning it was all formless and void? and still with the broom in your hand without trying to craft yourself in this shape or that you were fine it all just flowed, then you wanted to be a certain shape so we started sweeping right?

and made differentation between what flowed and how we used the broom.

then we all went out bought hoovers and tried to vaccum our minds?

popping off to the supermarket to buy chocolate is in fact an intense ritual to god, the microcosm is the macrocosm... an all that, every orgasm makes goddess cum, theres no need for it to be taken out of the ordinary for it to be divine the ordinary is divine, accept when i have to clean the cat box out.
 
  
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