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Questions (help would be appreciated)

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00:50 / 25.11.04

I am getting interested in this arena of thought

although I must admit the whole idea makes me skittish

my religious, cultural programming is primarily christian

and two things always pop up in my head when i think about

learning about magic

you must not suffer a witch to live

and

rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

thats the block in my psyche which i have to operate with

after a long time of thinking, doing shrooms, having bad trips/initiatory experiences, reading philip K Dick, the invisibles etc

I feel fairly conversant with some of the ideas mentioned in this forum

i am interested in taoism

does this tradition (which I still have very much to learn about), have any mysticism/ magic attached to it?

is it possible to use some rituals, without directly contravening the Judaic law? ( and yes I do know a little about the Kabbalah)

I am somewhere between a taoist and a christian

would any of you have suggestions on places to start learning?

Unconditional Love

01:49 / 25.11.04

nestorian christianity would fuse taoism christianity and buddhism, oh and manicheanism and a little zorastorianism together for you.

a book by martin palmer called the jesus sutras would introduce you too this area.

aside from that a traditional tai chi, bagua, hsing yi, baji, pachi, kung fu teacher will extol very similar values to christian ethics, the operative word is traditional.

learning about traditional chinese medicine would also be a course of action.

if you want an introduction to taoism as a living tradition in taiwan then a book by michael saso called master chuang is a good introduction.

also try researching the figure of qwan yin, she/he crosses alot of parallels between various forms of spirituality that have been prevalent in china.

Unconditional Love

01:53 / 25.11.04

p.s

in my opinion this book, scroll down on left hand side for complete pdf copy is a good introduction to kabbalah.

http://www.workofthechariot.com/TextFiles/Pubs-Intro.html

03:22 / 25.11.04

thank you for the suggestions, they look excellent

i'm trying to find the truth,

and I think I will have to be wary of ideas and books

which will offer easy answers

I wasn't aware of the existence of Nestorian Christianity

its very interesting that it even existed at all

this whole process was started by reading the Abolition of Man by C. S, lewis, and then the Tao Te Ching in quick succession

Lewis has some not exactly canonical ideas about mythology, other religions, and late in his life began incorporating Taoist prayers into his faith

I have a deep, deep love and respect for this man

I have a tendency to believe even his guesses

08:08 / 25.11.04

you must not suffer a witch to live

and

rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

Magic and religion both suffer from lazy thinking, a lack of solid research and a superficial unquestioning acceptance of received material.

For instance, you are quoting a text that has been translated via hebrew and greek before it got anywhere near english. The King James version of the Bible does say "You must not suffer a witch to live". Other versions translate it as "You must not suffer a poisoner to live", which is a rather different interpretation, especially in the light of the aforementioned King James' position on "popular religiousity" and magic at the time the translation bearing his name was commissioned. I prefer the phrase "Do not suffer a witch to base their ideas on poor research."

PS: If you start a thread, give it a proper title and topic abstract so people know what it is about and it will be searchable in the archives.

13:07 / 25.11.04

i'm trying to find the truth

I do not want to put you off, but please remember that there are many truths and that they may seem incompatible. I sincerely believe that trying to find the Truth will lead you wrong.

13:17 / 25.11.04

I do not want to put you off, but please remember that there are many truths and that they may seem incompatible. I sincerely believe that trying to find the Truth will lead you wrong.

damn straight.

Don't go looking for an absolute truth, cos you'll just end up where you started. You want to open your mind, not close it down. Explore all possibilities, and even if what you're reading is codshit, there is something to be learnt.

In my mind, that was the first thing to grasp. Everything else is not just easy, but fucking fun.

14:18 / 25.11.04

You're right Gypsy Lantern, I know the rules and I should have included an abstract. If one of the moderators has the time could you change the topic abstract

to something like questions about taoism and christianity?

I think that here we may have a difference of opinion

I believe in absolute truth

I don't believe that I, or any other human being for that matter, has ever known more than a small piece of it

You're right, there are translation issues

there are cultural issues

there are thousands of years of dogma

I wasn't trying to insult any of
the members of this board

just trying to give you guys an idea of my mental landscape

I would say that there is one thing that is worse than
learning with the intention of finding the truth

and that is learning thinking that you already know it

thats where I started, I have managed to lose that
smug sense of superiority that an education and childhood like mine tends to build into you

I'm just curious, and interested

"Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself
even the finest name is insufficent to define it
Without words, the Tao can be experienced
and without a name it can be known"

If you want to talk about lazy western people
thinking that they have gotten it all figured out
because they read a self help book

I'll admit to the lazy westerner part at least

14:30 / 25.11.04

I believe in absolute truth

Why?

14:50 / 25.11.04

cut out your heart

rip out your spine

then think

I must have at least one assumption

My assumption is not the existence of God
it isn't that I will find any kind of real meaning

its that there is a meaning there to find

call me naive, tell me its a crutch

and I will nod and say, sure

but whats your crutch?

I can't dream if I believe in nothing

I have tried being a nihilist

I have tried exaggerating the sadistic and masochistic impulses that seem built into this system of belief

I have tried to be a zen masochist christian

it doesn't work

it isn't real

but what is real?

its a crutch

consensus reality

I have faith, in this and very little else

thats why

14:51 / 25.11.04

If you're interested in Taoism and want an example of practical magic in action, buy yourself a copy of Richard Wilhelm's I Ching and start using it. You won't regret it.

In answer to your question, yes, Taoism does have a huge body of both mysticims and popular folk magic attached it. However, not much of it seems to have made it over here to the shelves of the Western new age baazar, thank fuck. A good introduction to the folk side of the religon in it's native land would be Schaffer's The Taoist Body

14:54 / 25.11.04

Sorry, got author wrong- Schiffer, his surname is.

14:58 / 25.11.04

Why do absolute truth and portentious spacing always seem to go hand in hand?

15:08 / 25.11.04

also a good point

in this case, sheer laziness

and a strong dislike for traditional written English

my blog is full of this pretentious crap

you should come take a look

right here

I am a lazy egotistical human being

take all the potshots you want

15:12 / 25.11.04

that book looks good, thank you Illmatic

this shopping list is going to get expensive

what is the price of inner peace?

at this point looks like about sixty bucks

· N · E · T ·

15:51 / 25.11.04

scarboi said: "I think I will have to be wary of ideas and books
which will offer easy answers
. . .

this whole process was started by reading the Abolition of Man by C. S, lewis, and then the Tao Te Ching in quick succession"

Hmmmm. But as long as they pose difficult questions, they're golden, right? Sounds like a kind of intellectual bias.

It facinates me how people can be so sure something exists that they have no evidence of.

How do you know that there must be an ultimate truth, and that your present state is capable of comprehending it without distortion?

20:56 / 25.11.04

like I said, I don't think I will ever know ultimate truth

that doesn't necessarily preclude that truth from existing

to know ultimate truth

would mean omniscence

and I have yet to let my God complex

to get that out of control

thanks for the help, wolfangel and illmatic

but I'm not really looking to get into this

arguement again

23:38 / 25.11.04

"Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself
even the finest name is insufficent to define it
Without words, the Tao can be experienced
and without a name it can be known"

Doesn't that passage suggest a dismissal of "absolute truth"? Not meaning to harp or anything...

00:01 / 26.11.04

I don't know
its possible

I'm not an expert in this area,
thats why i came here to ask questions

I wasn't expecting to get a lot of support for the concept of a truth/Tao behind life from practicing chaotes/paganists

I think that we may be talking about very similar worldviews using vastly different language

this is just a starting point for a learning process

23:55 / 26.11.04

ok so are you saying that Taoism is the search for an all encompassing truth?

My understanding of Taoism is that there is no truth and not searching for it is the whole point. Clarity in the void and that type of thing...

Unconditional Love

03:50 / 27.11.04

scarboi,

truth is a word. thats where it ends.

human language structures and thought formulas contain no truth nor lies.

only lying truthes and truthful lies, and not even those.

theirs a chan expression you may like to contemplate -

form is emptiness emptiness is form,
id suggest for the rest of your life.

the tao that can be told is not the true and eternal tao.
no book
no scripture
not my words
not your words

silence.awareness. even those are to be questioned without asking a question.

04:02 / 27.11.04

scarboi -

get out of here.

Honestly. I think you're approaching spirituality from an absolutist mindset and using poetic thinking to wrap up new age ponderances with disney-esque "good happy smileyness". If everything in this universe is all one thing —then no one way will lead you away from universal truth, because every way is the same way -forward in time. I think you're motivated by youthful impatience. Let's get to the shit of the matter shall we?

Now, as your harsh grandmother, I'll say your best bet is to research Spiral Dynamics and Memetic Theory. There're both highly useful in learning about yourself and how human beings have responded to language, belief, and culture, with respect to the ongoing development of spirituality. DO NOT shy away from the bloody nasty scatplay of human history. We are dirty animals that only recently discovered cell phones.

You need to look at these questions from a generally scientific point of view, and then balance that with your own thoughts and feelings. The "truth" will emerge between these two things.

05:02 / 27.11.04

wolfangel

been reading Burroughs recently

thinking about language as mind control
as a hinderance to thought

thinking using language

I try not to confuse the words I use with the concepts I intend them to signify

to a certain extent all human thought happens in language

I have meditated occasionally

as for being a poetic new age whatever

i don't know

I don't trust the scientific process

just like I don't trust human rationality

just like I don't trust new age poetic spirituality

or my own upbringing

which leaves me skeptical, with not much to do

my egotism is clearly a problem
but without it I don't think i could think

without desire what do I have

emptiness or peace?

and do I desire peace?

i'm tired and sick
I think I'm less coherent than I am normally

05:29 / 27.11.04

Man this thread is a mess, mostly because of my winding "portentous" posts. Let me reiterate, I grew up believing the Bible fairly literally. Obviously I knew there was some symbolisim going on there. I went to an absolutely psychotic private school, once again Christian. My father is an Evagelical pastor.

I gave up on Christianity before I turned sixteen.

But this shit runs real deep. You don't ever get to just stop being a Christian. All those things I was taught were pretty much the basis of whatever evaluation process I put any new idea through.

So I still do retain some belief in truth, not so much in the black and white terms it was taught to me as.

Philosophy, as I have understood it, was originally an attempt to rationally understand the world we live in.

So I got interested in philosophy.

Read some Nietzsche.

And the mythological system he uses is intended to debug Christian thinking to some extent.

God is Dead

we have killed him you and I

As I understand it Nietszche's aim was to create a morality which had no basis in religion. A very noble goal, which he never really realized.

I've read Valis, wondered if all the speed had gotten to Dick eventually, or if this was a genuine experience.

I am fascinated by the idea of logos

I have the Tetragrammaton tattooed on my back

Frankly, I'm still not quite sure why I did it.

A couple of months ago I had an absolutely hellish experience on psilocybin mushrooms.

Parts of me died, parts of me changed.

I came away feeling better than I had for a long time

Myth is programming
Language is source code

I have to work with what I got

What I have is twenty years of being an iniate in one the most powerful magics this world has ever seen.

Christianity is magic.

very powerful, very old

give me some reason to give up on it for something better

Unconditional Love

08:54 / 27.11.04

nature is far older, why not start there? from whence yourself as you know yourself began, the womb. anything else is speculation and guesses.

your not going to defeat christianity? not with another belief it will just create internal resistance, submit to it, see what games its playing inside of you, undertand it, then perhaps in time you can mutate it. which is i guess what your trying to do.

have you heard of the book -

the gospel of judas of kerioth? it may be worth your time its avalible from the american gnostic church corpus christi texas. it may reveal another side of christianity to you, its a cainite and ophite text.

trying to kill your upbringing just wont happen, you cant escape your past without a death of the self that was that past perhaps the pain you are feeling is the beginning of that, perhaps the internal conflict you have set up inside of yourself is moving that way, i dont know to be sure, what do you think?

anybody that grew up within a christian context is going to have emotions formed from that view point, and the attendent fears, do you think its possible to modify the beliefs inside of you? perhaps some of them are worthwhile, while you find others overload you with irrational fear? perhaps then its a case of learning how those that have power over you maintain that power and perhaps how you feed that fear.

an onslaught of total violence on those beliefs thou that are a part of you is in my opinion self violence, that will only create further resistance, total submission to forces within the self strips them of there power, its the fear of loss of control that stops people doing this (especially me):-), its not a short quick fire approach and it may take life times, but if your anything like me, i actually like it here so i intend to stay for aleast the next few million years.

15:21 / 27.11.04

In addition to being impatient, I'd add lazy and selfish to your list of crimes. You don't TRUST scientific method, "magic", OR your upbringing? What kind of idiots do you think we are? Grow up scarboi. You're not going to get anywhere wallowing in your own shit, despair, and questions. You're going to have to give up a little of your "pristine innocent wonder" if you want to discover anything. Stop wasting our time and your own with this bullshit and start reading. We've already given you PLENTY of places to start, it's your own fat and happy egotism that prevents you from moving forward.

16:03 / 27.11.04

Well thats about how angry I am with myself on a bad day.

Christianity as my parents practice it, is not a bad thing. In fact it is a relatively sane way to live.

That doesn't change the fact that Christianity is responsible for just as many atrocities as any other major belief system.

For the moment what you suggest is what I am doing.

I am trying to live as if I did love Jesus, and respected his teachings. They are highly, almost inhumanly moral.

So I try to live like that, and I try not to let all the shit thats built up in my head drown me.

And just because I don't trust science, rational thought, mysticism or Christianity doesn't mean I am not completely fascinated by all these subjects.

I'm not the first person to think these things, and I won't be the last. I'm trying to record the path I am taking.

Christianity was originally called the Way
back before Paul hijacked it.

I follow the Way, not well, but I try.

And if yout think I am selfish, lazy and egotistical now you wouldn't have been even able to talk to me a year ago.

Not of works lest any man should boast.

This is about redemption.

19:25 / 27.11.04

you must not suffer a witch to live

First off, you don't have to learn magick, if you feel uncomfortable with it. Secondly, this phrase above, can be interpreted so many different ways as I found here.

Here is an essay from Witchvox as well.

Personally, I am not Christain, or Jewish but I do get a kick out of misinterpreting this quote as:

If you make a witch suffer, you might not live.

tehehe...It is a joke really. I am aware that this does not mean that. But the Bible lost a lot of credibility for me a long time ago. As mathematically fasinating as it is, I can hardly take it as literal. For a book that is supposed to be the "Word of God", I can barely take it seriously when the "God" that is refered to as omniscient, benevolent and almighty, is also interpreted as saying Thou shalt have no other gods before me. For I am a jealous GOD! Enh, IMO, he's no better than any other pagan god, or human for that matter. Ho-hum.

I also interpret: "Spare the rod, spoil the child!", as, Forget about the rod, spoil your child.

Anyway, it is not just Christainity that has a problem with magick, spell-casting, seductive female body parts, midwifery, and herbology-that-wise-women-practiced-for-generations-and-helped-many-people-in-their-village- back-to-health-yet-sometimes-failed-to-do-so-and-got-condemned-later-for. Most monotheistic, patriarically based religions do not permit the use of magick or divination and even view science as a threat in much the same manner. Which, is all very revealling as to the intent of such harsh judgements. If there is a religion that isn't patriarical and oppressive, you can bet someone will come along rewrite the doctrine so it is.

21:33 / 27.11.04

"Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself
even the finest name is insufficent to define it
Without words, the Tao can be experienced
and without a name it can be known"

Doesn't that passage suggest a dismissal of "absolute truth"? Not meaning to harp or anything...

i'm no expert on taoism, but sounds to me like it’s still referring to something, just that it cannot be named. It’s certainly saying that there is something (‘the tao itself’) to be experienced and known. Surely it’s possible that this is some kind of ‘absolute truth’? just that as long as we try to think of it as such and try to make it succomb to semiotic subjugation all we're doing is mistaking the ‘menu for the meal’ and tasting paper and ink instead of juicy steak, a fine lager or the divine honey of a young women’s snatch.

23:19 / 27.11.04

Well yes that was why I quoted that section.

As soon as I have some funds I will start picking up the books that have been recommended here.

01:53 / 30.11.04

Given your background you might want to start with a book by Alan Watts. He was an ordained Episcopal priest who wrote a great deal about Taoism (and Eastern philosophy in general).

Several of his earlier books take a fairly Christian approach toward Eastern philosophy. I'd start with Behold the Spirit, which he wrote while he was still a priest. Given what you've written about "absolute truth," I'd also consider The Wisdom of Insecurity.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

08:40 / 30.11.04

You should do nothing.

Seriously. Your search is futile. Why do feel there is something to search for? Reading books will only add momentum to that which you seem to be trying to escape. All effort is violence.

Listen to your organism.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:36 / 30.11.04

i'm no expert on taoism, but sounds to me like it’s still referring to something

From begingless time there has never been a thing

Thus naming is the origin of all things

Puts paid to that notion.

Why is your life so meaningless?

11:47 / 30.11.04

This (hopefully) will help explain the foundations of what the practise of following your way is . And how to find it !

http://www.wudangtao.com/

22:47 / 30.11.04

thank you all

but I don't want to waste anyone elses time

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