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Should new members donate to the board?

 
 
Tom Coates
20:45 / 24.11.04
So here's an interesting idea mooted over at Metafilter. Basically when you register to use the site you have to donate $5 towards the server fund. Much like donations to Barbelith, this does not entitle you to any special treatment of any kind. If you misbehave you still get booted out and you don't get your money returned.

I've been thinking about this a bit as a simple way to deal with the lack of new registrations to the board. Yes - it's a barrier to entry - and it's one predicated on financial concerns which is hardly ideal, but it's less of a barrier to entry than no one being able to join at all, and to be honest it has the potential to make the board much more self-sustaining financially.

In addition if there's a cost involved, then it's conceivable that it might help dissuade spammers and trolls from arsing around on the site.

What do people think?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:35 / 24.11.04
It'd certainly stop people from registering just to pimp their own websites, which was a problem we had last time membership was opened up, so on the spam front it's a sound idea.

I'm not convinced that it'd dissuade trolls, though. Or, rather, I'm not convinced that it'd dissuade certain trolls who could teach John Hinckley a thing or two about obsessive stalking. And, with those trolls in mind, I'd have concerns about the possibility of their stealing usernames in future - imagine you're a new member, you've paid to join the board, then Cunto worms his way into your suit. You're going to feel diddled.

I also suspect that you're going to have a flood of people saying that there shouldn't be a financial barrier to posting to the board on principle. We've been down this road before, yeah? I don't see opinions having changed all that much.

That said, I'm certainly not as hostile to the idea as I have been in the past.
 
 
sleazenation
22:46 / 24.11.04
I think something like this would have actively dissuaded me from joining a board like this in the past - or perhaps it would have made me think twice, procrastinate and get distracted by other shiny things that were free...

Which is not to say I don't think its a good idea - It will both make the board a little more self sustaining and make new members feel they have a stake in getting the most for their joining fee. It will have an effecxt on the demographic of the place. but that will probably be a good thing.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:42 / 25.11.04
It would definitely dissuade the spammers. And I've got a lovely (though obviously rather exaggerated) mental image of a certain obsessive troll playing multiple ficsuit games and inadvertently making Tom a milionaire...

Just thought of something- yes, I'll check for myself, but I've literally just thought of it this minute. Do you have to be registered to READ the site? People may be more inclined to donate for membership if they know what they're getting in advance...
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:47 / 25.11.04
Stoatie -no, you don't have to be registered to read the site right now. I always log out at work when it's not lunchtime. So, people would know what they were getting before they paid up their £5!
 
 
Ariadne
19:03 / 25.11.04
I wonder what would happen if you just logged everyone out and made them pay to get back in? I reckon you'd end up with about 200 people on here, at the most. And in the same way, I think you would really put new people off joining.
I realise that's not a very helpful answer - I really don't know what the answer is for opening up the board, other than vigilance and some heavy-handed moderation.
 
 
Ariadne
19:09 / 25.11.04
on second thoughts, we don't have ANY new members at the moment, so at least we might get some - and the charge would definitely head off some of the less determined trolls.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:41 / 26.11.04
Metafilter has just done this, yes? So, I guess question one is whether we see ourselves as offering a comparable service to Metafilter...

Pros:

1) Anyone joining will have a clear audit trail, so can be identified easily (and barred more easily)

2) Anyone joining will be sufficiently keen to contribute that they are ready to pay the cost of a pint to get in.

3) More financial stability for the servers - it's pretty much impossible to get people to pay for something they _can_ get free, so the cash coming in on Barbelith is not great.

Cons:

1) It would feel like more of a service rendered.

2) Many people on Barbelith, and many people who would add value to Barbelith, have trouble organising credit cards - we'd need to be flexible... maybe a scholarship programme... or sponsorship?

3) It would make it far easier to connect the person with the user ID, which may again be an issue...

I'm not sure either way. What I *will* say is that if we do this we would have to _get the terms and conditions in place first_. One of which woudl have to be that this is a one-off donation, and does not in any way affect Tom's right to bounce you off Barbelith without compensation if necessary.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:29 / 26.11.04
It would also require that we have people around to deal with issues like housekeeping that the Mods can't do, dealing with people who say they can't access their account, people who say other people/mods are being mean to them... Do you really want another job Tom?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:31 / 26.11.04
There's also the people who CAN'T pay online...
 
 
Tom Coates
18:41 / 26.11.04
I think it's worth pointing out that I wouldn't be talking about levying a charge for people already on the board, just for new registrations - so all you guys would be exempt clearly. So yeah - we would be making it impossible for some people to join the board. That's clearly true. However at the moment no one can get onto the board at all (except by asking really nicely) so they wouldn't be losing out (except relatively). It might also deal with getting people on the board who are too young for the place. I'm not sure this is the right idea by ANY stretch of the imagination, but I'm getting increasingly interested in it as a relatively simple way of opening up the board and dealing with membership problems.

I mean - another option for getting better coverage for the bills would be for me to put Google ads on the site for people who are not logged in. They represent a good proportion of the bandwidth anyway, and don't contribute anything back at the moment. But I'm not sure I like the idea of having corporate sponsorship of any kind on the site, even if we wouldn't normally see it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:56 / 27.11.04
I agree with that, certainly; I'm not averse to the method, _but_ I think we need to be a bit more flexible than Metafilter, say, because our readership is not necessarily l33t, and as such we might want to have a mechanism whereby people who don't have a Paypal account or a credit card, or do not want to give credit card details, can ask for a way to make alternative payment, say... We could do a sponsorship scheme, where somebody like me pays for people using Paypal and they find an alternative way to pay ...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
02:12 / 28.11.04
But I'm not sure I like the idea of having corporate sponsorship of any kind on the site, even if we wouldn't normally see it.

Well, given that the FAQ is currently advertising a million and one different services, items and webpages...
 
 
Z. deScathach
01:04 / 29.11.04
Which is not to say I don't think its a good idea - It will both make the board a little more self sustaining and make new members feel they have a stake in getting the most for their joining fee. It will have an effecxt on the demographic of the place. but that will probably be a good thing.

The one thing that concerns me is that there is some sort of payment method for people who choose to live off the grid, otherwise I'm not so sure that it will effect our demographic for the better. If having a credit card becomes the prerequisite for getting on, we'll basically be chosing our membership based upon who has good credit, and that will effect the makeup of this community. I've seen sites that you basically can't get on unless you have plastic. What that has always said to me is, "If your not successful, we don't want you here." IMO, if we send that message, I think that this site may lose some of it's political "edge", and that would be a shame.
 
 
aus
01:37 / 29.11.04
The forex issue doesn't seem to have been sufficiently discussed here. It seems to me that a set fee in UK pounds or US dollars would discriminate against anyone living in a country where the exchange rate creates a disadvantage. For example, when I lived in Australia and the AU$ was worth half a US dollar, I didn't make any contributions or purchases in US dollars. If this is not mitigated, it would probably increase community homogeneity.

However, I do think a small fee for new membership would be better than no new members at all, and would discourage spammers and trolls.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:13 / 29.11.04
I'm not precisely sure how a Paypal account works. Can you have an account without a credit card? Because if so, then people could donate the equivalent of $5 to them, or swap real world money for a transfer of credit.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:40 / 29.11.04
Paypal say you need to have a credit card, debit card, or bank account registered with them in order to pay money through them.
 
 
aus
11:53 / 29.11.04
So we're worried about people who have a computer, internet access, money they can afford to donate, but no credit card or bank account...

OK.

For a start, I work with someone whose grandmother lives in France and keeps all her money in her armoire. I think my workmate's grandmother could be a very valuable contributer to this community.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:05 / 29.11.04
More people who are bankrupts, or are seeking to minimise the number of times that their identity appears on the Internet, or people who are insecure about financial exchnage through computers, or distrust Barbelith's security. 30% of Americans, f'r example, are "unbanked", if I recall correctly. Brits less likely to have a problem, because our banks have interest and our stock market is less pervasive.

This may not be a large number, but it is a number, and it might include people we might very much like to have on Barbelith, and who might have something to add to it. My concern is more that reopening membership with no other stipulations than a one-off cash payment would allow lots of people with bank accounts/credit cards etc, but nothing to add to Barbelith except noise levels, to join up.
 
 
iconoplast
15:01 / 29.11.04
So those of us who /have/ credit cards and bank accounts can have a little wiki with what we're willing to accept in exchange for a five dollar/pound payment.

i.e., I'll gladly pay the fee for any new member who sends me home baked cookies.

But if we have a patronage system, or whatever you want to call it, that pretty much hoses the idea of accountability and age-restriction that make the scheme attractive.
 
 
Z. deScathach
20:13 / 29.11.04
The thing is, at present we are more or less operating on a sponsorship system. What's the problem with this? IMO, it ensures that the people getting on are of higher quality due to the responsibility of the sponsoring party.

I terms of plastic, I don't have any. I am banked, but only with savings. I do not want a checking account. So I guess I'm one of those persons who would probably not get on if there was a paypal arrangement. (Of course that might get you all to decide to go with paypal, ). Paypal says that it's system is secure, but so did several other companies who subsequently got hacked and had bank account and credit card numbers stolen. Of course there is an important point here. The biggest problem with some plastic only sites is that they will only allow a person to join on their OWN credit card. I think that it is usually possible for a person to find someone with a credit card willing to let them use it, but not always. Letting people join on someone else's card might ameliorate the problem. The problem is that many services along those lines will not allow someone to do that because of theft liabilities.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:14 / 29.11.04
The thing is, at present we are more or less operating on a sponsorship system. What's the problem with this? IMO, it ensures that the people getting on are of higher quality due to the responsibility of the sponsoring party.

I don't think that's actually the case; it means trolls don't tend to get in, but it's no guarantee of quality otherwise...

Also, it means that the numebrs increase and the server load increases while the same 10 or so people contribute $5 a month and Tom bankrolls the rest, which may or may not be an issue for anyone. And that the only way to get into Barbelith is to know somebody already on Barbelith, which is a bit restricting.
 
 
Z. deScathach
23:56 / 29.11.04
Also, it means that the numebrs increase and the server load increases while the same 10 or so people contribute $5 a month and Tom bankrolls the rest, which may or may not be an issue for anyone. And that the only way to get into Barbelith is to know somebody already on Barbelith, which is a bit restricting.

Good point. It wouldn't solve the cost prob, (and I do think it's important that Tom not have to pay for a ton of bandwidth out of pocket). I'm not really sure that charging a fee would improve the trolling situaton,either....as was mentioned above, there are plenty of trolls that not only have credit cards, but relish messing with fee for-service-sites. Still, allowing people to join on another's credit card may solve the problem. I've always managed to squeeze by with that sort of thing..... (unless of course, using another's card is not allowed). Of course one would have to wonder whether that might produce a problem with multiple fiction suits.... at least if members are tracked through credit card info.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:17 / 30.11.04
as was mentioned above, there are plenty of trolls that not only have credit cards, but relish messing with fee for-service-sites.

Oh, sure, which is where the next awkward thing comes in - reserving the right to kill suits immediately and without the right of appeal, depsite the payment - that is, making it clear that it is a donation rather than a service contract. That way a) the number of suits a troll can register is limited to the number of credit cards he can gain access to (a large but finite amount, and a bit more time-consuming even than registering email addresses), and every time he trolls, is banned and registers a new suit he actually helps Tom to meet the running and improvement costs of Barbelith.

I actually really like this idea in principle... it's just whether we can do it without excluding people. Well, apart from the people we want to exclude...
 
 
aus
04:22 / 01.12.04
...like gypsies, for example.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:52 / 01.12.04
Like trolls, for example.

As for those who *would* be excluded... well, like Z de Scathath, for starters. Or anyone else without a credit card/electronic banking etc.

It's a problem to consider, essentially. The more we insist on people paying with their own credit cards, the more accountability they have (we know who they are, can ban a name as well as an IP range or a set of mannerisms), so the easier it is to deal with trolls &c., but also the more acute the focus on them is, which could make people uncomfortable. That's a balance that needs to be worked out.

A sponsorship or patronage scheme might be a possibe way to do that, or a limited posting scheme for unbanked members (5 posts a day, say, on provision of a proper email address? It wouldn't kill trolls, but it would slow them down...) as a "provisional period"... I dunno. The patronage model that we currently have both limits the people who can join and does so on pretty arbitrary criteria - that you joined before the portcullis went down I agree with Tom that this is not sustainable in the long term, but also - no disrespect meant - I don't want to se Barbelith getting much dumber, or being trolled to near-death again. Maybe the $5 donation would mean people would not join for purely frivolous or mailicious purposes...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:40 / 01.12.04
As I see it, the biggest problem with the board right now is that the current 'sponsorship' requirement for registration gives all the negative impressions of elitism without any of the supposed benefits - there is no quality control, and if anyone thinks there is, I'd be interested to hear exactly why. What we need is either a) open membership, or b) some kind of vetting policy. Whatever happened to the oft-mooted idea of an initial 'probationary' period for new members?
 
 
Tom Coates
20:51 / 01.12.04
Basically I still want to do it, but I can't find a way to get Cal to build it for us. I need new geek Barbelith enthusiasts, basically.
 
 
grant
02:58 / 02.12.04
Maybe a thread asking for geek enthusiasts would be productive. I'm not nearly geeky enough myself, but I bet someone like fridgemagnet* or, I dunno, a couple other folks on here, would find it well within their abilities.

*It was the text adventure for fridge's apartment what made me name names. That and the Virtual Bush Magic 8-Ball page....

By the way, put me down as one against the for-pay system for the reasons outlined above (mainly, valuable users who don't like messing around with banks and/or online financial transactions). If there were some way to do an either/or thing -- either chip into the kitty or, I dunno, go through 30 days limited-posting probation or whatever, then maybe I'd go along with it.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
23:48 / 06.12.04
Well, I think I'm one of the newest, if not the newest member here (I didn't have any problem registering, incidentally- did I just duck in before some kind of iron curtain went up?)- Apparently the newest member is "Roland98," but that guy hasn't posted.

Anyhow, I have a debit card only, having cut up my credit cards earlier this year (vile, vile things), but I would be happy to donate some amount of loot to this site because it's a brilliant place and I like it here. So, if you could give me the means, I would toss some cash your way every once in a while.
 
 
sleazenation
08:44 / 07.12.04
As long as debit cards work on paypal you can donate using that method.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
18:40 / 09.12.04
Never used Paypal. I'm a bit shit at many internet-related activities, honestly. I must have step-by-step instructions or I'll probably fuck something up.
 
 
■
22:36 / 10.12.04
You could always try nochex, the UK's own-brand version of PayPal. It even takes Solo, I think. Give Tom a quid or two each month. You know you want to.
 
  
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