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Notorious B.I.G.

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:46 / 20.11.04
"Damn right I like the life I live
Cuz I went from negative to positive"


So it's pretty fascinating to me the position that Biggie now holds in relation to people's attitudes towards what's good hip hop and what's not (I mean, of the people who divide these things up on the basis of anything other than case-by-case judgments). Back around the time of his death and shortly afterwards, I remember that he was still seen as being part of bad, evil mainstream rap by a lot of kids who just listened to Wu-Tang and Jeru, etc, including me. Not surprising: his best mate/producer/record boss was Puff Daddy, a lot of his singles had r&b hooks, he rapped a lot about how he liked women and specifically having sex with them, he also told stories involving guns - lots of guns - and he was obsessed with designer-name clothes and other forms of materialism.

Brief anecdotal bit here: I then made a friend at university who was a hip hop DJ, and he couldn't believe that I didn't like B.I.G. He played me a lot of tracks, he leant me a tape, and slowly it dawned on me (starting with the more rugged tracks first, as was the way for me back then): this guy was a genius. In retrospect I think realising that paved the way for me realising that the whole underground = good, mainstream = bad dichotomy applied to rap was bullshit. Apart from anything else, for the first time I realised that being a lyrical genius wasn't just a matter of cramming in a lot of very long words and making references that were as obscure as possible - you can come up with smart, funny, insightful rhymes using relatively straightforward language.

But I've noticed that many of the people who still cling to that dichotomy solve the problem of Biggie by just putting him on the right side of that divide. Which is amazing to me because in some ways, for the reasons listed above, the Notorious one really was an example of the textbook 'bad' mainstream rapper. And I'm wondering how this works in those people's heads. Is it, as I suspect, simply just a question of there always being a statute of limitations on when mainstream rap is always seen as bad by the people who hold this mindset? Say 6-8 years, give or take? In other words, back in the mid-90s it was Biggie and Pac and Puffy who were bad, but NWA and Ice-T might just be okay. Now, Biggie might be okay, but 50 Cent or Fabulous are definitely bad... Does the fact that he's dead add to that, canonising him earlier than would otherwise be the case?

Ironically, I think the artist who holds the closest position to this today is Jay-Z - ie, ask someone who divides hip hop up into the good/real/true hip hop and the bad/mainstream/fake rap, and you won't be able to predict necessarily which side of the fence they'll put Jigga on. I'm not sure that's what Jay-Z meant when he went on and on about taking over from Biggie all those times. But is interesting - for me, it's interesting because I think examples like B.I.G. and Jay should up how unworkable that divide is.

Okay, so if anyone has anything to say about the above, that would be great - but we can also just use this thread to talk about favourite B.I.G. tunes. Like, for me obviously the whole of Ready To Die is a classic, especially (off the top of my head) 'Things Done Changed', 'Warning', 'Juicy', 'The What' and the title track. In fact 'Juicy' was a real epiphany-inducer for me. But I also love a lot of tracks from Life After Death: 'Somebody's Got To Die', 'I Love The Dough', 'I Got A Story To Tell' and of course 'Mo Money, Mo Problems'...

"B-I-G, P-O, P-P-A
No windfall for the DEA
Federal agents mad cuz I'm flagrant
Tap my cell, and the phone in my basement"
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:49 / 23.11.04
I'd hate to chime in here seeing as how I have listened to criminally too little B.I.G. material (even though I know his bits in "Mo Money..." and "It Was All A Dream" by heart), but I thought I'd just say a bit about the J-j-j-jay Hova and the general split betwixt Bad/Mainstream and Good/Underground. It took me a while, but it recently dawned on me just what an amazing lyricist/rapper Jay Z is. Even his most shoddily produced tracks have numerous instances of incredible wordplay, but the primary draw is the sincerity in every line he drops. I think that's the real divide in hip hop, Sincerity v. The Front, and people on both sides can be found in either the under or overground. El-P might not have the tightest skills, but you feel what he's saying, his sincerity. Vast Aire is incredibly sincere, whereas Sage Francis veers alarmingly towards The Front on many an occasion. And I think we all know where Paul Barman is in this case. I think this is also why I'm continously drawn to Aesop Rock, even though he is often unintelligible and his production is uneven at best. The perfect example of the divide resides in one person: Marshall Mathers. His sincere rhymes are incredible, while his polished, surface rhymes are nigh unlistenable.

So, all this is meant to illustrate that, yes, I need to listen to more B.I.G.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:12 / 23.11.04
As with Gene ( Parmesan ? Birdie ? ) I've never really listened to too much Notorious B.I.G. He's always seemed to be a bit too much a part of that whole soporific early-to-mid Nineties G-funk making dollars approach, which musically more than anything else, I never had much time for. Personally, I'm happy enough to listen to anyone rap about almost anything as long as they do it on the beat, as opposed to just mumbling, disinterestedly, over a collection of George Clinton samples - it's obviously a question of personal taste, but if you're going to go on about gunz, girlz and dollarz, you should at least try and sound semi-engaged, as far as I can see.

On the other hand though, in the Nick Broomfield movie Biggie And Tupac, there's an early clip of the N.B.I.G. in a street-rapping contest in which he does seem brilliant, sharp, aggressive, and yes, right on the beat, so it may just be I'm doing the guy a disservice. And I'm not the best person to judge in any case - I haven't bought a *hip-hop* album since I gave up on Tricky a couple of years ago, and even before then, I only liked rappers who were fighters not lovers, so the typical middle class, white British approach really...
 
 
Chiropteran
18:32 / 23.11.04
On the other hand though, in the Nick Broomfield movie Biggie And Tupac, there's an early clip of the N.B.I.G. in a street-rapping contest in which he does seem brilliant, sharp, aggressive, and yes, right on the beat, so it may just be I'm doing the guy a disservice.

I've never been remotely impressed by anything I've heard of B.I.G.'s solo work - again, mostly a matter of taste - but I heard a bootleg live recording of him with Tupac that knocked me on my ass - big, fat, hard beats and incredible high-speed flow from both men.

~L
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:03 / 23.11.04
Birdie - 'It Was All A Dream' is the Jay-Z track off Blueprint 2 that samples an entire verse from 'Juicy' (and takes its title from that song's first line), right? If you haven't heard 'Juicy' in its entirity yet, I urge you to do the same.

He's always seemed to be a bit too much a part of that whole soporific early-to-mid Nineties G-funk making dollars approach, which musically more than anything else, I never had much time for.

I think you're confusing a few different things here - Notorious B.I.G. definitely wasn't G-funk. Biggie was a New York rapper, and while he might have made more songs with beats that incorporated/crossed over into pop or r&b than certain other NY rappers, he was never really mellow - the material you're describing hearing as if it was the exception in his career was in fact the norm. Both his albums had DJ Premier beats, Method Man guested on the first, RZA did a track for the second - he had that East Coast sound, 90% of the time, and was all the better for it.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
23:24 / 23.11.04
I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I can hum a few bars:

"It was all a dream
I used to read Word Up Magazine
Salt And Pepper and Heavy D up in a limousine."

And so forth about what it was like growing up and following hip hop.

Possibly one of my favorite all time verses in terms of delivery and substance.
 
 
The Falcon
01:30 / 24.11.04
The reason everyone took so long to understand Jigga was great was that he had a #1 single that sampled Annie.

I bought my sis it for Xmas one year.
 
 
The Falcon
01:31 / 24.11.04
Is 2Pac good too, then.

'Cos I kind of think he isn't very good at all.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:19 / 24.11.04
if you're going to go on about gunz, girlz and dollarz, you should at least try and sound semi-engaged... he does seem brilliant, sharp, aggressive, and yes, right on the beat, so it may just be I'm doing the guy a disservice

Buy a copy of 'Ready to Die'. The words "brilliant, sharp, and aggressive" don't come close to describing Biggie.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:26 / 24.11.04
I think criticism of Biggie's ability to be engaging when talking about "Gunz, girlz & dollarz" are best answered with this:

No more cocoa leave-io, one two three
One two three, all of this to me, is a mystery
I hear you motherfuckers talk about it
But I stay seein bodies with the motherfuckin chalk around it
And I'm down with the shit too
For the stupid motherfuckers wanna try to use Kung-Fu
Instead of a Mac-10 he tried scrappin
Slugs in his back and, that's what the fuck happens
when you sleep on the street
Little motherfuckers with heat, want ta leave a nigga six feet deep
And we comin to the wake
To make sure the cryin and commotion ain't a motherfuckin fake
Back in the days, our parents used to take care of us
Look at em now, they even fuckin scared of us
Callin the city for help because they can't maintain
Damn, shit done changed

If I wasn't in the rap game
I'd probably have a key knee deep in the crack game
Because the streets is a short stop
Either you're slingin crack rock or you got a wicked jumpshot
Shit, it's hard being young from the slums
eatin five cent gums not knowin where your meals comin from
And now the shit's gettin crazier and major
Kids younger than me, they got the Sky grand Pagers
Goin outta town, blowin up
Six months later all the dead bodies showin up
It make me wanna grab the nine and the shottie
But I gotta go identify the body
Damn, what happened to the summertime cookouts?
Everytime I turn around a nigga gettin took out
Shit, my momma got cancer in her breast
Don't ask me why I'm motherfuckin stressed, things done changed
 
 
illmatic
14:35 / 24.11.04
Apart from Nas, B.I.G. is my all time favourite. What a flow, what skills, what panache. I'm thinking specifically of the cover of my edition of Ready to Die - the man done in out in white Karl Kani complete with fly little hat. It's just everything that was ever cool, all summed up in one image. Everyone I know who's brought a copy of that album has loved it to death.

With regards to what Fly is saying above (great post BTW), for me, one of the things that I've always loved in Hip Hop has been great wordplay, great rhymes. This is why I love Nas (even if he can't seen to make a good album) and why I love Kool G Rap (even if he can't make a good album). Jay Z defintely falls on the right side of that divide for me. Commercial, shmmerical, really - it's just has he got skills or not. And though I'm not going to take this position myself (I don't hear enough new stuff currently to defend it), this is why you get a lot of "old school B Boys" (read: those fetishing the mid-90s) dis a lot of new stuff - the argument being the emphasis ain't on skills, wordplay no more. I've no idea if this is true or not, I'm sure if I went digging I would find many examples to counter that argument - but to me the very limited amount of say, 50 Cent stuff I've heard, bears this out. Doesn't seem a particularly skilled or talented MC to me. Which is not the same as saying his music is evil, a corruption of the true Hop Hop, or even unenjoyable. Just lacking that little bit of lyrical magic.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:43 / 24.11.04
It's kind of hilarious that being an "old school B-Boy" now means fetishing the mid-90s (and it does, I agree). I guess it's pretty clear why (Premier = God to some, and there are worse people to deify), but anyone who remembers the mid-90s remembers that there were plenty of "old school B-Boys" bemoaning the state of hip hop then and longing for an earlier time. DJ Shadow even made a track called 'Why Hip Hop Sucks In 96' (his answer, by way of a corny sample = "it's the money", which is why Shadow has never accepted a cent for his records, prefering to be paid in knitted hats). I'm sure in 10 years time there will be old school B-Boys who say "remember the days of great producers like Kanye West and Just Blaze?" (okay, production is a whole other tangent, but it's an interesting one...).
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:01 / 24.11.04
Everyone I know who's bought a copy of that album has loved it to death

I've just listened to about half of it on one of those free music websites I've never got round to using before, and it does seem terrific - Lyrically, as in the best gangster movies, you've got the visceral thrill of the life being lived, along with the constant, hovering threat of how it's likely to end, and all of it delivered as it should be really, with maximum skills, while the music, which I'm still having a hard time accepting Sean Combs had anything to do with, Sean Combs having previously been identified as the missing link between Pol Pot and Phil Collins, would still have been good if Ja Rule was involved.

So I take back every ( qualified, but still, ) unkind thing I said up-thread about the man and his music, I stand corrected, and ta, everyone, for the recommendation.
 
 
illmatic
11:14 / 25.11.04
anyone who remembers the mid-90s remembers that there were plenty of "old school B-Boys" bemoaning the state of hip hop then and longing for an earlier time.

Oh God, yeah. It just seems to me to be a common thing that occurs when black music acquires a white fanbase. It's happened in the 'blues, it's happened in reggae. There are plenty of white reggae fans out there who complete reject modern dancehall but are happy to worship at the shrine of 70's roots, when the music was largely about an enthicity and a religon that excludes them.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:49 / 25.11.04
don't think about stationary... don't think about stationary... don't think about stationary...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
02:24 / 29.11.04
I'm still having a hard time accepting Sean Combs had anything to do with,

im pretty sure he more or less only produced side two, or about 1/2 to 1/3 of the tracks on the record.
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
05:30 / 29.11.04
Combs has co-producer credits on four or five of the tracks on Ready to Die, so it's hard to say how much real input he had into the music aside from going "uh huh" every now and then. Puffy/Diddy hatred aside, he had a major role in getting the music out and deserves respect for that. The best cuts ('Gimme The Loot', 'Machine Gun Funk', 'Warning, 'Things Done Changed') were produced either by Easy Mo Bee or Dominic Owens and Kevin Scott. Discogs has all the info here.

Ready to Die is easily my favorite hip-hop record of all time. I picked up a copy several years after it came out and grew to love it the way I hadn't loved a record since I was seventeen. Still do.
 
 
No star here laces
08:30 / 29.11.04
The amusing thing about hip hop and a certain type of music consumer is the way that the consensus* of what "good" hip hop is changes.

*Consensus as in consensus among people who need a reason to like hip hop as opposed to people who just like whatever bumps.

As is pointed out upthread, talk to a large number of people in the mid-90s and they'd say something along the lines of "I like old-school hip hop, you know when it was still positive, and funky, like Grandmaster Flash". And what they were comparing it negatively to was "all that aggressive, gangsta rap, like Biggie and 2Pac".

And around the start of this decade, you'd get a lot of people saying "I like old-school hip hop, you know when rappers had skills, and talked about serious issues, like Biggie and 2Pac" with the enemy being "bitches and bling".

As is pointed out above, both of these positions are ridiculous, because 80s hip hop had plenty of violence in it, and secondly because 2Pac and Biggie did plenty of flossing.

Now crunk enters the picture and complicates it again. If on the one hand you've got Lil Jon yelling "what you gon' do?" over and over again, suddenly Fabolous looks like a Wildean wit. The deliberately anti-intellectual whiteboy approach gains momentum, and people on message boards start defending all sorts of horrible crap like Big Tymers or Lil Wayne.

All of which only goes to prove that any sweeping generalisation of what "good hip hop" consists of is pretty much bollocks. Huge numbers of people continue to dismiss all sorts of musical delights for utterly spurious and quasi-racist reasons. People need to detach hip hop from what they think it "signifies" (ususally "those stupid mainstream people") and listen to the ish on its own terms.

I truly defy anyone not to admit that "In da club", for example, is a hugely infectious and enjoyable record, and that if indeed it does come on in da club, when you've had a few drinks, you WILL want to dance to it. And that makes it good hip hop.

For utterly different reasons to those that mean Trick Daddy's "Thug Matrimony" is one of the sweetest, most thoughtful albums released this year. The fact that Trick is from the South, has a mouthful of shiny teeth and used to fuck Trina (the "Diamond Princess") is neither here nor there. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the marketing.

So all the people upthread who are citing broad cultural references as to why they never bothered to listen to BIG or Pac only make themselves look pretty foolish by doing so. The only reason for dismissing an artist like 2Pac, who is clearly NOT a flash in the pan, being still adored by millions a decade after his death, is because you've listened to several of his albums properly, and haven't liked them. And manifestly NOT because you think that as a California rapper on Death Row he must have been "soporific g funk".
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:37 / 29.11.04
The only reason for dismissing an artist like 2-Pac... is because you've listened to several of his albums properly, and haven't liked them

Well as far as Tupac Shakur goes, I can think of at least a couple of reasons, in fact eight or so months worth, why I'd worry a bit about his status as a sane human being, never mind as an artist, sexual assault not really featuring on the ok list of rock and roll behaviour.

But as a general point, 'laces, are you seriously trying to argue that everyone has to listen to say a couple of albums by Robbie Williams ( another musician who's never exactly been starved of public exposure, ) before they're entitled to an opinion on the material ? Realistically, isn't life a bit short ?
 
 
bio k9
23:52 / 29.11.04
Tupac has yet to jump out of my stereo and try to rape me.

I don't want to get involved in a conversation about the merits of Tupac's music because I haven't listen to any of it in a while and never really enjoyed it all that much. I am however a huge fan of the Tupac I saw and read in interviews. Yes, he was a flawed and disturbed person. But he was also very intelligent and came with a point of view that isn't given much space in this society.

My music is not for everyone. It's only for the stong-willed, the soldiers music. It's not like party music. I mean, you could gig to it, but it's spiritual. My music is spiritual. It's like Negro spiituals, except for the fact that I'm not saying 'We shall Overcome.' I'm saying that we are overcome.

Also, I think its important to
 
 
The Falcon
14:56 / 30.11.04
To what, Bio?

I was enjoying that.
 
 
No star here laces
02:12 / 01.12.04
Tupac jumped out of the stereo and raped him, so he had to stop typing.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:38 / 05.12.04
I really want to mount a defence of Fabolous after Beerlaces sorta dissed him, but then I guess even I don't think he's actually a 'Wildean wit'.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:42 / 05.12.04
He's never really lived up to the promise of 'Holla Back Young Un', has he? 'Breathe' is okay and 'Tit 4 Tat' on his new album is good, but only because it's the first truly excellent Neptunes beat in about a year (apart from 'Drop It Like It's Hot').
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:04 / 05.12.04
A lot of his songs are pretty boring for beats but I think his wordplay is really good - he generally comes up with good unexpected rhymes, i.e. not particularly stunning subject matter example from 'Breathe':

I came back with some sicker stones
That got these broke niggas lookin at me like they chokin on a chicken bone.
Every chick I bone can't leave the dick alone
So I know it's one of them every time I flick my phone.


Anyway my favourite example is in 'Fabuloso' when he seems to ad lib by yelling 'a yay yay yo' then rhymes it with

Niggas get mad cause I may slay they hos
But I don't wanna let these AKs spray though


So yeah no Wildean wit but some great rhymes.
 
 
No star here laces
05:07 / 07.12.04
I don't dislike the guy - he is fantastic on those R'n B type things that he specialises in - I loved that one where he goes "baby girl feel so good on my arm, something like those baseball jackets with the leather on the sleeve" - that's great! I just meant to cite him as an example of someone who has obvious deficiencies.
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:17 / 07.12.04
It's the official remix of 'Never Leave You'. I'm happy now.
 
  
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