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Hunting, Civil Liberties, Animal Rights and the Parliament Act

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:35 / 19.11.04
Obviously: A ban on fox-hunting forced into law by MPs after peers defied the House of Commons has received a mixed response.

The opponents of the ban (let's not call them 'pro-Hunt'; there are people in there who loathe hunting but dislike the implications of banning it even more) are challenging the legitimacy of the Parliament Act, which is being used to push the ban into law despite the opposition of the House of Lords.

Some views:

Burns Inquiry: This is a complex issue that is full of paradoxes [...]

[..support for hunting] tends to be based not so much on importance to the individual - although this was true for hunt participants and some farmers - but a belief that hunting had greater significance for the community as a whole and for others living there; that hunt-based social activities play a significant part in the social life of these communities, but are not as significant as those of the local pub or church; that support for hunting, and a belief in its importance to individuals and to the local community, was particularly strong in the Devon and Somerset study area; and that a significant minority who were opposed to hunting would welcome its abolition. [...]

In lowland areas hunting by the registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population, and terrierwork, especially by gamekeepers, may be more important. In these areas, in the event of a ban, other means of control have the potential to replace the hunts' role in culling foxes. (Paragraph 5.42)


In upland areas, where the fox population causes more damage to sheep-rearing and game management interests, and where there is a greater perceived need for control, fewer alternatives are available to the use of dogs, either to flush out to guns or for digging-out. (Paragraph 5.43)


Lord Bramall: Nor can the human rights argument and the "freedom to do what the individual thinks is reasonable" be entirely justified on historical grounds. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, raised that issue in an earlier debate. If that were so, those who might want to pursue other forms of behaviour which have, over the years, been banned on the grounds that they constitute unacceptable conduct in an otherwise civilised society could argue the same way [...]

the fact that in a well-organised hunt there is not, as some critics would say, intentional, gratuitous cruelty of inflicting pain of a voyeuristic nature, which is more than can be said of some activities which go on in public.


Lord Williams of Mostyn: It is deeply necessary not to confuse what we may disapprove of with what must be criminalised.

IFAW:
In a MORI poll conducted in the UK in November 2003, 76% of people said they wanted hunting with dogs to be banned (82% said deer hunting should be illegal, 77% said hare hunting and coursing should be illegal, and 69% thought fox hunting should be illegal. 76% is the average of these three figures.)

John Rolls, RSPCA: This new legislation reflects modern society's abhorrence of cruelty to wild animals which has, for too long, been veiled in the bloody cloak of tradition and prejudice. To willingly inflict unnecessary suffering on another sentient being is intolerable, and for this reason the RSPCA heralds this ban on hunting with dogs as marking a watershed in the development of a more civilised society for people and animals.

So: where are you on all this, what haven't I mentioned which I should have, where are the priorities?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:38 / 20.11.04
Well you didn't mention the woman from the Lords who, after the vote was announced and the use of the Parliament Act was also announced said "This is a victory for prejudice and the bigotted". Yet strangely she wasn't using this to describe the House of Lords as one might usually assume.

Opponants of the ban have complained all along that it is being driven by urban MPs, yet so what? All MPs are going to be voting and making decisions on parts of the country they have nothing to do with, that's the way Parliamentary democracy pretends to work. Let's not forget the Lords were relatively recently spouting forth on homosexuality, which almost all of them were claiming was an entirely foreign country to them...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:01 / 20.11.04
I am utterly and completely in favour of a ban, I think it should have been put in to place years ago, it's a blood sport, it's abhorrent and I'm completely behind the Parliament Act being used to push it through. There are better things that they could be doing in Parliament with regards to animal rights but most of those things would never be accepted. For instance you probably wouldn't be able to ban battery farming, which I would like to see thrown away like the shit it is. As someone who really believes that animals should be treated as creatures with emotions I think we should be passing more animal rights legislation.

I'm sick of opposing amotive arguments- "they don't actually feel anything. Foxes never die on our hunts" vs. "this is a form of pest control". Hunting can't be both, either you kill or you don't kill and of course the dogs catch foxes. The right to train animals to rip each other up should not be one that the British possess. This is the only government action that has hit the front pages that I agree with and it socks Otis Ferry's mother (the arrogant cow) right in the eye.

And as for the Countryside Alliance: London has a damn sight more people in it so it gets a bit more money. If you're so jealous than come and pay the price of exhaust fumes, congestion and expense, otherwise shut the hell up and go stop traffic on the motorway nearest to your home instead of in this place that you clearly dislike. Get out of my city, she doesn't like you, she knows you're not a minority group.

Sorry I know some of that wasn't relevant, I just dislike these people (as a group) so much.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:52 / 21.11.04
None of this going to exactly improve life for foxes though, is it ? Instead of having to outrun a herd of slavering idiots ( of whatever species, ) they will now just be shot or gassed instead - For those unfamiliar, gassing in particular is pretty much up there with being torn apart by a pack of dogs - they don't, unfortunately, just go to sleep. As has been said elsewhere, as a piece of legislation this was never really about animal welfare, which given Nu Labour's attitude to say laboratory testing or battery farming, they obviously aren't all that concerned with, so much as the kind of class conflict that used to be rehearsed every week in The Beano and The Dandy. And really, wouldn't what remains of the left in the Labour party these days be better off spending their time trying to *get one over* on the *toff* that actually runs their organisation, whose attitude to human life is to say the least questionable ?

But it'll be interesting to see what form the threatened civil disobedience from the Countryside Alliance takes, bearing in mind that a lot of these people would have been almost rabidly pro-Thatcher during the Miner's strike. Otis Ferry as the next Arthur Scargill ? If what they claim to be planning actually goes ahead, it might just happen. And if things do get ugly, isn't it pretty much a given that Prince Charles, at some point, will feel he has to speak out ?

No wonder that foxes, like all sensible people from countryside areas, seem to be moving to the city these days.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
05:49 / 22.11.04
I just dislike these people (as a group) so much.

Which is about the scariest reason I can imagine for banning anything - not from you specifically, but from anyone. The weird thing about this argument is that I was profoundly in favour of a ban, and I regard hunting as vile, but I'm more and more persuaded that there is a civil liberties issue here - something I was skeptical of - simply because much of the impetus for the ban comes from just that feeling: 'because I don't like the people'.

I don't either. But a whole bunch of people I love are adversely affected by legislation which exists for similar reasons, and that legislation I regard as more evil than - for example - hunting.
 
 
sleazenation
10:54 / 22.11.04
I have my misgivings about the way the legislation is framed and its practical application but I am certainly in favor of seeing the end of bloodsports.

I have seen this framed in some quarters as a class issue, and in many ways it I think it is; while working class bloodsports such as dog fighting were outlawed for their creulty in the 19th century hunting with dogs has survived into the 21st. That strikes me as a double standard.
 
 
Bed Head
11:35 / 22.11.04
It’s just anecdotal experience, but having lived in Lincolnshire for most of my life, most farmers I know hate hare coursing - on class grounds, I guess; are *scared* of hare coursers, and if they get onto the subject they’ll always start off moaning about how useless the police are and why can’t they just Do Something. So it’s odd to see hare coursing now being lumped in as one of the countryside ‘traditions’ that they’re trying to protect, on the grounds of civil liberties.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:39 / 22.11.04
For anyone who may be wondering what Drag Hunting actually is...

Drag Hunting is a thrilling sport which should not to be confused with Fox Hunting which is equally exciting but in a different way. In Drag Hunting, a pack of hounds follows a scent laid by a human rather than pursuing a live quarry. The line is laid over a pre-deterrnined route to take advantage of  the best opportunities for jumping offered by the land crossed. These include all the types of obstacle one might encounter out Fox Hunting.

The objection against Drag Hunting as a subsitute (from the Burns Inquiry):

[w]e have already noted that it has often been said that drag and bloodhound hunting offer little attraction to present participants in hunting and that relatively few people would switch to them.

Some support for this comes from some earlier research in which only 14% of respondents with first-hand experience thought that they would take up draghunting following a ban.


That seems to me to be a question of choice rather than a hard and fast reality, but I can't ride a horse unless you actually tie me to it, so what do I know? I've heard it argued that the skills required are different, but I simply can't judge that.

[other links]

BBC Devon talks about Scotland's ban and the possible effects in Devon.

The Hunting For Tolerance organisation puts its case (my personal favourite bit being the description of the RSCPA which clearly slipped through the 'no frothing' filter: the largest animal welfare charity in the UK. It claims to have 'animal welfare' at the heart of its work but, since the mid 1970's its ruling council has been progressively taken over by animal rights activists whose real agenda can be accurately characterised as militant mandated veganism.)

[thoughts]

I dislike the 'class war' aspect of this enormously (II). It seems to me that it simply weakens the case for all the other things I want de-criminalised or preserved as legal; if I support the ban on hunting simply because it's done by people I don't approve of (and actually although Colonel Farquah Tavistock Prowse may well be the huntsmaster, my neighbour the subsistence farmer may well be in the pack, but that's another question), I accept the legitimacy of legislation against groups which are disapproved of... something I'm not happy with at all.

On the other hand, there are behaviours which need to be banned, however much they are hallowed by tradition. The unwillingness of hunters to consider draghunting or other alternatives leads me to suggest that hunting isn't real unless it culminates in violent death. That's not something I feel any particular need to protect. The trouble with that, of course, is that it also applies to game fishing. And if you lower the bar and talk about 'bloody violence', it applies to boxing and martial arts. Am I content to see those things banned?

I want to believe in a ban on hunting. At the moment, I don't, because I can't see an argument for it which doesn't carry some very bad baggage - especially as the government seeks the right to try people without juries and arrest those who use a particular banking network.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:48 / 22.11.04
Well yes, but the likes of dog-fighting and so on were purely about the spectacle, whereas fox-hunting, for all this has got very little to do with why anyone's really involved in it, arguably serves a practical purpose, in terms of pest control. So that'd be the distinction I suppose.

Having said that, it's hard not to feel that the pro-Hunt lobby's being more than a touch melodramatic here. It's not, after all, as if they've been banned from riding to hound, it's just that they won't be allowed to do this in pursuit of a live animal any more. If hunting's really such a grand old tradition, then surely it can make the actually fairly small adjustments required here, if the alternative's the supposed loss of livelihood, mass death of fox hounds and so on that it's currently trying to suggest. And let's face it, you don't hear people at the greyhound track complaining that the hare's not real, do you ?
 
 
sleazenation
12:07 / 22.11.04
I don't agree that dog fighting was purely about the spectacle - In the 19th century there was an incredible problem of stray dogs wandering the capital's streets (as there still is to this day as the existence of Battersea dogs home bears out) - the animals helped the spread of disease. Dog fighting actually thinned the population of excess dogs in a manner not entirely dissimilar to that of hunting to the excess fox population.

I'm not trying to promote a ban on bloodsports as a targeted measure against the upper classes, but as a long-overdue measure to bring bloodsports with hounds into line with other bloodsports which were legislated against as a relic of a less civilized age two centuries ago.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:48 / 23.10.05
Hunting still going on.

Waiting outside the woods is a man with a bird on his arm - an eagle owl. Falconry is not outlawed and in that sport you use dogs to flush prey to your bird. So around the country, hunts see this as a way to get around the law. The Countryside Alliance says around 50 packs have bought a bird or made a deal with a falconer to come out when they are in the field.
 
 
Supaglue
23:39 / 23.10.05
Hope this isn't going to rot the tread, but what's everyone's view on other forms of hunting? Shooting pheasant or other game for food or fishing?
 
 
Mirror
21:49 / 25.10.05
I'm a hunter (primarily for deer and elk, and the occasional rabbit if the opportunity presents itself) but as I hunt mainly for meat I can't really relate to the fox-hunting discussion, or at least not on the side of the hunters. It did occur to me upthread that drag hunting sounds a bit like catch-and-release fishing, which while initially unpopular is now well established in the U.S.

As far as hunting for meat goes, I think it has a number of benefits. For me, the most important of these is that, because I'm personally involved all the way from the pursuit and the kill through the butchering and on to preparation as food, I'm acutely aware of the fact that it requires the sacrifice of a life for me to eat meat. This means that I'm unwilling to waste meat, or permit waste to occur; it means that I take personal responsibility for that life. As a consequence, I feel like eating meat is a conscious and considered choice for me, instead of a default.

On a more practical note, I like the fact that I know my meat to be hormone-free, GMO-free, etc. and that it led a good, free life and died quickly with a minimum of terror and pain.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:56 / 25.10.05
The thing to remember when comparing hunting between the US and the UK is that the social context is very different. In the UK, hunting is something that has historically been a pursuit of the upper classes, who declared that they owned all the animals in their territories. A few peasants hunting rabbits for food was okay, but try hunting anything serious and you're a poacher, to be dealt with severely.

This technically isn't true today, and very few people hunt for food because we don't really have enough animals, but the whole fox hunting thing for instance is basically a dominance ritual; we can ride over your land and do what we want, on the flimsy pretence of pest control. There's a very significant class war element to the fox hunting debate, and I don't say that as a criticism in any way.
 
 
Mirror
00:53 / 26.10.05
Interesting. So fox hunters have the right to ignore private property boundaries? That's something I hadn't heard of before, and certainly something that would never fly in the U.S. I had heard of the "traditional byways" laws for footpaths in the U.K. but didn't realize it might extend to hunting.
 
 
Axolotl
08:06 / 26.10.05
I'm not sure that they had the right to ignore property boundaries. They just do (did?, I'm never sure whether to refer to fox-hunting in the past tense or not). However I may be wrong, as my research into trespass was some time ago (I miss my old job, it was interesting).
 
 
Supaglue
08:09 / 26.10.05
I have seen this framed in some quarters as a class issue, and in many ways it I think it is; while working class bloodsports such as dog fighting were outlawed for their creulty in the 19th century hunting with dogs has survived into the 21st. That strikes me as a double standard.

Dunno how true this is: Foxhunting is (or was) certainly class based, but don't forget the biggest turnout for any 'sporting' event in Britain was the Waterloo Cup for hare coursing. That was only just banned a few months ago and it was always perceived as a working man's past-time.


I was interested in seeing what people thought about angling, in particular as it is something I used to do - it was probably the only thing I ever did with my dad, so I 'spose I link it with that and the summer, etc. Its interesting, because angling, out of all the bloodsports (if indeed it is) pervades all classes in the UK - propbably more than any other past time, I would say.

It would also be interesting to balance positive effects of anglers (and shoot gamekeepers, etc) against any cruelty. Do fish and birds fall into a different category than mammals when it comes to hunting? Is the nature of their death more acceptable (accepting that some fish must die from bad or inexperienced anglers), and does the purpose for which they're killed matter more?

One thing that does concern me is the political targetting of foxhunting. It was rushed through in quicktime, took up almost as much parliamentary time as the debate on Iraq (NB - this is anecdotal mind, will check tonight, if I remember). It strikes me as a political party aiming its sights on a societal group that traditionally does not vote for them. I'm sure there was and is genuine concern for animal welfare, but it seemed to enter the public forum when it was most needed as a diversion to other events. The other thing is the lack of consistency - there has been nothing like the debate for the banning of other bloodsports. I can't see why that should be so.

I had heard of the "traditional byways" laws for footpaths in the U.K. but didn't realize it might extend to hunting.

Nowadays, vast swathes of counrtryside are open to the public. Of course, foxhunters have been going around where they like for years. I think often they sought permission prior to the hunt to go on land, but I don't think lack of permission ever stopped them. It doesn't help that there is no actual criminal offence of tresspass in the UK, so it would have to be an expensive injunction to stop them.
 
 
Loomis
08:32 / 26.10.05
I was thinking of starting a thread on other bloodsports, particularly angling, but maybe we can broaden this one to include them. What do mods think?

In my opinion catch-and-release fishing is far worse than catching them for food. As far as I'm aware (though perhaps I have been brainwashed by animal rights propaganda) it is accepted that fish feel pain, so how can we justify sticking a hook through their faces merely for our pleasure, and not even eat them afterwards? In any case, the wounds received from the hook, being handled and time out of the water are often fatal to the fish regardless.

A few links:

Fishing Hurts

PETA

Mr Tony: "There will be no ban on the country pursuits of shooting and fishing ... as long as I am prime minister, I guarantee that this government will not allow any ban. We will not do it."
 
 
Supaglue
09:11 / 26.10.05
Just a quick reply to your links, Loomis:

I don't know whether the fish feeling pain thing is conclusive, especially around their mouth area - and to the degree of the pain. There seems to be a ruck of sites for and against, so I'll have a look through them. I just don't know and am unsure of whether I can reconcile fishing with my revulsion of animal cruelty and bloodsports.


Also worth noting, is 'consistency' again. Firstly by what the governement's stance is: foxhunting bad - angling, shooting - good!. Perhaps it has somehing to do with the licencing of angling/shooting (something foxhunting didn't require) and is therefore revenue on a substantial scale (plus alot of serious anglers, I believe undertake schemes to care for riverbanks, etc, alleviating the governments duty). It is 'who' the governement wants to legislate against rather than principle, which is worrying.

Secondly, where does a consistency of policy take us - is horse racing (particularly jump racing) cruel? I would say definitely so. Dog racing? possibly. If not directly, certainly in the fate of dogs bast their best. But could that be a justifiable reason to go on and ban pets altogether? Maybe the government is onto a loser whatever it does - I can't find a point of which to lay my own principles...
 
 
Loomis
09:23 / 26.10.05
It's very difficult to know where to draw the line as it can be an emotional issue, with long traditions that adherents fear to lose. Personally I would ban all animal sports if I could, and am kind of undecided on pets in general, for various reasons. There was a Head Shop thread a while back about pet ownership. Maybe we could do with a fresh one though as it got a bit muddled if I recall.
 
  
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