BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Minor Mayan info

 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:50 / 16.07.01
[YNH] asked for a Mayan thread. I'm not a Mayan scholar by any means so I'll just post a few statements.

I have taken pilgrimages to Mayan sites in Guatemala and Honduras with one particular elder (actually 4 elders but they were all there to support his gig). The purpose of the pilgrimage was to learn from each other, us learning certain things about ceremony and the sacred sites and for them to learn about us and what we are like. Also, for us all to pray together as brothers and sisters instead of indiginous and non-indigingous.

The impression I get is that the indiginous elders have just as many politics going on as anybody else and that different elders have different 'truths'. Usually current politics and borders are involved as well. For example, the elder I studied with is well respected within Guatemala and Honduras but isn't as respected in Mexico. That's just my impression and I might be wrong though.

The one thing that seems pretty accepted across the board by the elders (from what I've been told) is that Jose Arguelles is considered to be following his own agenda and is spreading his theories as facts even when the elders on the Mayan council tell him he's got his stuff wrong. Not just on prophecy and religious stuff but that he's got some of the basic Mayan mathmatics wrong. It's amazing how many people think that just because he's written books on the subject he's infallible.

I highly recommend that anyone interested in Mayan studies should go to the sacred sites and experience them for themselves. I don't think there are any books that really do anything but misinform. One elder had the belief that even though writing was useful, his belief was that most of it, no matter what the subject, was used to spread lies and to steal from others. They don't think much of Mayan 'scholars' or books on their people and culture.

If anyone wants to email me for contact info on who I studied with please do. While not entirely cheap it is less expensive than most 'spiritual pilgrimages' and it was truly one of the most amazing and worthwhile things I've ever done in my life.
 
 
grant
15:09 / 17.07.01
Could you cover the basics of Mayan cosmology?

Where did the world come from? Where do we go when we die? Where will the world go?
What are the gods like? How do we please them?
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:17 / 18.07.01
heh . . .sounds like an Webzine article to me . . .
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:26 / 18.07.01
heh . . according to Jose Arguellias . . . my Mayan signature is Blue Cosmic hand!!

Sounds cool eh?

Yeah I met him once...he's got a pretty large following in the pacific north-west.

lots of arie-farie types (IMO)

still it's sort of like kindergarden mayan cosmology... kind of cute though.

 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:48 / 18.07.01
From what I know, the only 'written' stuff on the Mayan cosmollogy and cosmogony stuff is from the tablets at Palenque which has been 'translated' into what is now known as thePopol Vuh

It's pretty dry reading but has their versions of 'creation' stories. These creation stories are in some regards more as a diaspora then a creation... from a land that, some people think, corresponds pretty closely to Atlantis myths. There are myths about early attempts of the gods to create human life (which failed) until the third try which was us.

It's been too long since I read it to really do it justice. I highly recommend anyone who's interested in Mayan stuff to get a hold of a copy. It'll serve you better than anything from Arguelles.
 
 
Templar
09:48 / 18.07.01
I've spent a fair amount of time in Belize, and there most of the locals treat the "Mayan Council" kind of reconstructive attempts as being complete fabrication. Which isn't to say that there isn't authentic stuff going on, but that a lot of it is involved either with internal politics, or with portraying a certain kind of image to prosperous Americans who can put pressure on the government to set aside "reservations" for them.
A lot of the revisionist Mayan mythology has been heavily rewritten in order to make it more accessible to the Western mind - it's not nearly so accesible in the "original" forms (which are, for various reasons, pretty impossible to get at anyway).
Some Mayan mythology survived in various Codexes (like that the Dresden Codex) which have been the focus of intensive study. The heiroglyphic system used by the Mayans was fairly complex, however, and is not completely understood, which makes the study of Mayan mythology both interesting and irriting!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:34 / 18.07.01
Not to mention that the Maya Quiche elders say that the glyphs on the stellaes and codices mean one thing while western scholars say they mean another. To me, the elders explanations made more sense when I was there but in an oral tradition I wonder how much has been lost or modified over the years.

[ 18-07-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Frances Farmer
16:28 / 18.07.01
I can't guaruntee the purity or validity of my information, but I've been reading "Fingerprints of the Gods", a book by Graham Hancock, who previously worked as a correspondant for The Economist. In his travels in Central America, he appears to have done a good deal of detective work in regards to the ancient civilizations of Central America.

According to Mr. Hancock, The Mayans believed we are living under what's called "The Fifth Sun" - after four prior and aborted attempts at creation. In each successive story, the creator became angry with the direction the creation was going, and destroyed civilization. The passage following actually refers to the Aztecs, but the Aztecs inherited the truest form (in the world today) of Mayan culture (according to most anthropologists) in the world today.

From the book :

quote:
"First Sun, Matlactli Atl: duration 4008 years. Those who lived then ate water maize called atzitzintli. In this age lived the giants... THe First Sun was detroyed by water in the sign of Matlactli Atl (Ten Water). It was called Apachiohualiztli(flood, deluge), the art of sorcery of the permanent rain. Men were turned into fish. Some say that only one couple escaped, protected by an old tree living near water. Others say that there were seven couples who hid in a cave until the flood was over and the waters had gone down. They repopulated the earth and were worshipped as gods in their nations...

Second Sun, Ehecoatl: duration 4010 years. Those who lived then ate wild fruit known as acotzintli. This Sun was destroyed by Ehecoatl (Winder Serpent) and men were turned into monkeys... One man and one woman, standing on a rack, were saved from destruction...

Third Sun, Tleyquiyahuillo: duration 4081 years. Men, the descendents of the couple who were saved from the Second Sun, ate a fruit called tzincoacoc. This Third Sun was destroyed by fire...

Fourth Sun, Tzontlilic: duration 5026 years... Men died of starvation after a deluge of blood and fire..."


Further on ...

quote:
"The symbol of the Fith Sun, our current epoch, is the face Tonatiuh, the sun god himself. His tongue, fittingly depicted as an obsidian knife, juts out hungrily, signalling his need for the nourishment of human blood and hearts. His features are wrinkled to indicate his advanced age and he appears within the symbol of Ollin which signifies Movement.

Why is the Fifth Sun known as 'The Sun Movement'? Because, 'the elders say: in it there will be a movement of the earth and from this we shall all perish.' "


Unapologetically apocalyptic, to be sure - and the Mayans differed from the Aztecs in that they had a precise and projected date for the end of the world (which we are all undoubtedly familiar with) - estimated December 23rd, 2012. The Aztecs were fans of human sacrifice- beliving they were staving off the inevitable by appeasing the sun god who would visit destruction upon the earth. The Mayans, I believe, were also under this impression, until the appearence of 'The Virachocha People', who instructed in the arts of science, agriculture, and architecture. They also taught that the gods would accept sacrifices of fruits and flowers, and that blood was unnecessary.

Fascinating stuff. Unfortunately, we have very few records of the Aztecs - fewer yet of the Mayans. It's all polluted, as acknowledged above. However, it's still quite interesting..
 
 
Templar
19:37 / 18.07.01
If you liked Fingerprints of the Gods, try The Mayan Prophecies. All about the end of the fifth age, with the end of the calander stones and all that on December 25, 2012 (is that the same as Invisibles?) tying it into solar wind.
About as spurious in its conclusions, but interesting none the less.
Isn't Fingerprints of the Gods the book where he tries to make out that the lid of Pacal's tomb in Palenque shows Pacal in a spacewalk, wearing a spacesuit and being tied to his ship via an umbillical? (As opposed to the traditional reading of him returning into the cycle of life and death...)
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:47 / 18.07.01
I thought the Mayan Prophecies was a bit more credible and plausible than Fingerprints.

I really wasn't too impressed by Fingerprints. Some of his more paranormal/new agey conclusions seem to just be his opinions and his historical stuff is better covered in the Popol Vuh.

Mayan Prophecies at least tried to bring some other outside theory to the table with some rationale as to how they got there.
 
 
ynh
20:09 / 18.07.01
The five worlds emergence story is repeated up to about the Mason Dixon line, then. Wild, or not so. I was just working on a bilingual (chincano/a) children's story that reiterates it and locates it Guatemala. The Navajo story retains the one man/one woman line, variously calling them First Boy (thought) and First Girl (speech).
 
 
Templar
09:38 / 19.07.01
The main guy who wrote The Mayan Prophecies wrote a much better first book, dealing with the alignment of the pryamids in Egypt with Orion, and a much worse third book which (and I've not really tried to remember anything about it) was something to do with Jerusalem. Possibly the burial place of Jesus of Nazareth, or some nonsense.
 
  
Add Your Reply