BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Comic Books >

Thing/ Hulk (the Invincibilty of the Hulk)

  
 
Joetheneophyte
15:16 / 14.11.04
I am genuinely very sorry if this has been discussed before on these forums. I cannot go into too much detail but due to constraints in my personal life....I have access to the internet only once or twice per week at the moment and time is too precious to do searches


Okay here goes


recently, I read with interest, an article that detailed Marvels latest miniseries about the Hulk/Thing


Personally and to lay my cards on the table......I LOVED Ben Grimm when I was a kid. He was my favourite

owing to this favouritism.....I was always annoyed when he lost to the Hulk and I freely admit my annoyance that most Hulk/Thing clashes, in fact ALL that I remember ....resulted in Ben getting beat.

the Seventies clashes were the best, in my opinion before we got to the 'Uber hulk' of the last fifteen or more years.
Today, a Thing/ Hulk clash is pointless.......you pretty much know that the Hulk will win due to his strength increasing and Ben getting 'tired'.

Whilst I always had this resentment(admittedly bizarre and ultimately exhibiting my own inadequacies) of the Hulk......I did enjoy the odd run of the Hulk comic, most notably the issues Peter David wrote about the multi personlaity issue and semi successful intergration

My problem with the Hulk was that he became basically unbeatable. All the excitement of the chance that the Thing might beat him.....or the Abomination might have had a chance or even that Doc Samson might somehow subdue him was lost..........we repeatedly fell back on the fact that the Hulk had somehow developed a better regenerative power than Wolverine and his strength was incalcuable and limitless


MY ARGUMENT:


Whilst there is nothing wrong with the Hulk getting stronger with rage .......imo ..........THERE STILL MUST BE AN UPPER LIMIT!

I do not profess or request that this upper limit be stipulated



BUT .........I am old enough to remember that the Hulk lost his love, Jarella.............he lost the love of his life and presumably, that is about as angry as any of us could concievably reach.

In my opinion, there is NOTHING that could make you angrier than losing a loved one.

The Hulk has reached that pinnacle and as a result should have reached the limits of his strength. I am NOT proposing that this 'limit' be defined or even that this should allow him to somehow be restricted. BUT the indefinate strength levels that Marvel now use as an excuse for his unassailable status need to be addressed.
Coupled with his healing factor....the Hulk is NOW totally unbeatable......ergo , a Thing/Hulk clash is pointless.


My preferred take on the situation is that



a: The Hulk should be stronger or at least on a par with the Thing as soon as they meet

b: The Hulk should get stronger as he gets madder


c: This should not be instantaneuos and there should be a window where the Hulk could still concievably be beaten by an adversary who is similar in strength (Thing/Abomination) BEFORE HIS STRENGTH REACHES A CERTAIN LEVEL

ie........ a cruiserweight boxer might knock out a heavyweight in the early stages of a fight or if his skills allow him to avoid injury and inflict damage


d: there should be a ceiling on the Hulk's strength (I will explain in a 'DC ' analogy later)
Whilst he should be number one in the hero/villain stakes......cosmic foes such as Thanos should be able to beat him or have even greater strength




John Byrne did the damage in my opinion

He repeatedly had the Thing saying "I am not in the Hulk's class for inulnerabilty" etc etc etc


This was taken up throughout the eighties and made the whole Hulk/Thing issue pointless


later in the eighties...........there was a story where the Thing was bombarded by a further dose of cosmic rays and he evolved saying "I must be in Hulk class by now"

the inevitable fight between the Thing and the then Grey (and ergo weaker Hulk) resulted in the Thing winning (though he was unaware of his victory as he did not recognise the now 'grey version ' of the Hulk)


Ben was subsequently beaten in a despicable comic that pandered to fanboy pressure in the subsequent rematch in the Hulk's own title

(sorry, this two issue fight did stick in my throat as in the FF comic the Thing won but in pure crossover...we want your money fashion, Marvel pandered to fan pressure and in the Hulk comic sequel........in his own title, the Hulk won the rematch)




Anyway, whilst I AM TOTALLY, TOTALLY willing to accept the Hulk's supremacy............in such a ridiculous and unassailable postion as the Hulk now enjoys.....what is the point of the Hulk fighting anybody?



In the DC universe, over the last ten or so years, Superman has regained his position as biggest hitter......something, I have NO objection to.....I personally think he should be the biggest hitter but still beatable by Darkseid and other even bigger cosmic/Godlike threats





Superman (like the Hulk) should be the big fish but NOT totally unbeatable. Otherwise, what is the point and more importantly, why bother reading?

I have no objection to the Hulk or Superman being the big hitters and number one on the block but when all others have no chance or cannot be even shown to have any means to win....then all drama goes out of the storytelling (in my opinion)


For me, Superman should be able to (on occassion ) be beaten by Wonder Woman, Jonn Jonzz, Cap Marvel, Darkseid and even Batamn (with preparation)


just like the Hulk should be vulnerable to the Abomination, Doc Samson, the Thing


otherwise , what is the point?
 
 
osymandus
16:37 / 14.11.04
I have to agree with your ideas.

But there is one major flaw the hulk does posses , he has no true fighting skill , the angrer his becomes the more wild and outrages his strikes , a clever writer could say pit him against a highly skilled but vastly superhumanly strong individual (Gladiator maybe), who could simply outfight him.

As for the Thing (as i recall he has beaten the hulk shown in the recent mini series), isnt he a very compatent wrestler , and arm hold or lock against a raging stronger oppent would surly resault in send oppent breaking they own arms or dislocation ?


Superman/ Hulk is never really as great a battle as you would first believe , the man of stell already faster then a speeding bullet can in theory pummel the hulk before he moves.

It can be done , but it comes down to
1) Editoral control
and
2) Is there a hulk film coming out in the near future ;-)
 
 
Joetheneophyte
17:05 / 14.11.04
thanks for that

Yes Ben is a weaker and less resilient opponent BUT he can and does possess army training (martial arts/ fighting skills and tough upbringing)


No this will not always beat pure unbridled rage as exemplified by the Hulk........but at least in a minority of the time (and in the interest of storytelling/drama) it would be a concievable plot device to allow the Thing to stand his ground or at least win in a minority of occassions.

Unfortunately, the way the Hulk has been portrayed over the last ten to fifteen years, this would make little difference as he has basically been able to regrow a new body from a skeleton state........grown in strength exponentially and (something I DONT PLEASE NOTE "DONT!!!!!!!!" disagree with fundamentally, as it makes him a more interesting character)He has been been exhibited or shown, able to show a new personality with peculiar and particular abilities........ For example, I have no problem with a 'new' Hulk coming to the fore with different abilities and criteria (much like the Devil Hulk that was patroling Bruce's subconscious in issues several years ago).

But I still think that making the usual semi literate or even grey or Professor Hulk omnipotent , is ultimately self defeating for drama or interest. Now whilst I didn't intend and I hope this discussion stops right here (as I have seen it played out on message boards time and time again).......at their current strength levels and depictions, there is no doubt in my mind that Superman would win in a Hulk/Supes fight

PLEASE, DO NOT LET THIS CONTINUE, OR START ANOTHER THREAD!

Speed and the apparent disparity between base line DC/Marvel, strength levels decides this one (imo).
Marvels' heavy hitters throw cars around easily, they survive nuclear explosions and have regenerative powers......
DC's fly to the sun, move the moon and come back from the dead.......they are just that far ahead imo from point one.

DC are basically (imo) working from a totally different paradigm. I think the recent JLA/Avengers Superman/Thor depiction summed it up perfectly.....(SUPERMAN) "In my universe it goes up to 11"

Nothing inherently wrong with that. Two different depictions and nothing wrong with the that depiction until market forces try to have interplay between the two companies/universes

PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND RE THE SUPERMAN/HULK ISSUE UNLESS YOU FEEL IT IT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY OR UNLESS I HAVE SAID ANYTHING SO STUPID IT REQUIRES YOUR COMMENT

I would prefer a purely, Marvel/Hulk Thing thread and IF necessary, I will (or you can)start a Supes/hulk thread of your own


thanks
 
 
osymandus
17:26 / 14.11.04
Thinking about the "super" regenerative abilities teh hulk has displayed (i think your describing it from The hulk special The End , where he gets eaten by giant incests and regrows).

What if say some (lets use gladiator again , as im assuming the character, being the leader of an alien military force, should have very extensive martial prowess), were to use procession nerve or preassure point strikes (does the hulk have preassure points (Superman was vunerable to this in the DC universe !) . In theory no damage is done to limbs, the impulses are just impeded .

Even better have Stick, Daredevils old "mentor" return . Absurd level of martial skill with ability to manipulate Chi (life force).
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:27 / 14.11.04
One of my favourite comic book moments was from the Cosmic something or other series that Mike Mignola drew in the nineties, when Superman sees Darkseid and flies at him ready to fight, and the next panel just shows superman having been knocked away. No need to even see what Darkseid did. I always liked the big hitters having a weakness.

The Hulk held up a mountain.

The Thing was a wrestler.

The old seventies fights were great, but it always looked painful for Ben, rocks flying off with every blow, but I think, as has been pointed out, a good writer would recognise that the Hulk has no style, and a good fighter would take him, regardless of strength.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:51 / 14.11.04
The Hulk remains fairly vulnerable to telepaths IIRC, except when he's really mad, because then it's too difficult for telepaths to keep control of his mind. As with Superman, he's probably vulnerable to magic as well.

But remember. The Hulk isn't a hero. He's a monster. He's the bad guy. So he has to be powerful to be monstrous, in the same way Doctor Doom wouldn't be much of a threat to the FF if he was a blind man with a yoyo.
 
 
diz
13:20 / 15.11.04
But remember. The Hulk isn't a hero. He's a monster. He's the bad guy.

exactly. the Thing and the Hulk are totally different, in that the Thing is a character, whereas the Hulk is a monster, or, in some senses, something that happens to Banner, who's the real "character." the Hulk is basically Frankenstein's Monster blown up to a Godzilla scale. he's less like a person than a natural disaster on two legs. he's not something that can be fought, really, just endured until it passes.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:52 / 15.11.04
>> For example, I have no problem with a 'new' Hulk coming to the fore with different abilities and criteria (much like the Devil Hulk that was patroling Bruce's subconscious in issues several years ago).

We never got to see more of the Devil Hulk that Paul Jenkins introduced....awww, poor little neglected Devil Hulk!!

In other Hulk/Thing news, that Bruce Jones-written, Jae Lee-drawn miniseries ("Hard Knocks") doesn't seem very good. Is it?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
19:34 / 15.11.04
managed to get on the comp again!

Haven't picked up hard knocks as yet, just glanced through it in the comic shop when I had no money on me. I intend to get it for nostalgia reasons if nothing else

SPOILER
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
In the second issue, Ben hands the Hulk a photo from their first fight that shows a different ending than we were led to believe from the FF comics in the sixties, ie Ben appears to be standing over an unconscious Hulk. To me and my own bias, this seems a great twist and the Hulk seems genuinely shocked and Ben blames the weird personality problems of Banner/Hulk on old Greenskin not remembering events correctly. Personally, I think that this will be retconned or some trick but it was a good plot device in my opinion
As for the pressure point bit mentioned above, I seem to remember an issue of the Hulk where Captain America was trying to do just that and the Hulk just looked at him. Now whether the Juggernaut or the Thing with their power levels could find these pressure points and exploit them is worth considering.
Thankyou all for being so kind to this thread. I know it is odd a mid thirties fella talking about Thing/ Hulk clashes rather than some more high falootin' brain matter and I appreciate the fact that you have treated it nicely and not laughed at my geekiness


  
 
grant
20:02 / 15.11.04
Actually, I think on a symbolic level, it's very important that the Hulk horrifyingly beat Thing in any physical contest, just because
Hulk = untrammeled rage
Thing = misunderstood outsider.

They're both monsters. Hulk is basically the Wolf Man (the beast within), and Thing is basically Frankenstein's monster (never asked to be born).

That's the level these guys play at in the stories.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
20:58 / 15.11.04
hmmmmm interesting. I like your thinking but from the point of view of writing an interesting twist on this, or to add some drama......some more level playing field is necessary.
I still believe the Hulk should win most of their battles for all the reasons already given but to make any future stories worthwhile telling, there should be the possibility of Ben winning. I think the Hulk and the Thing have both moved on (until MARVEL revamp the titles yet again!)
Ben seems more comfortable in his 'skin' (though in the Hard Knock issues, he seems to be having major self doubt again, which has been done to death)
the Hulk is no longer brainless or at least his persona seems to include a level of intelligence not shown in the seventies. This new persona is probably yet another aspect of Bruce's personality but strikes me more like the GREY HULK than the green behemoth of old.
In the nineties, the Hulk and Ben Grimm (in human form) conversed in an issue of the Hulk and the then Grey Hulk, needled Ben and bragged how Ben was jealous of the Hulk's ability to lash out freely and enjoy his own prowess
I thought that was a great issue

My alltime favourite Hulk issue was a What If issue. In said issue, Ben retrieves the journals from an alternate universe that detail what at first seems to be a potential cure for Bruce Banners Hulk afflcition

In the journals, similar to the Peter David story, Doc Samson attempts to intergrate the various Hulk and Bruce personalities
BUT this then resulted in the Hulk going rogue and resenting his troubled life/abusive suffering coming out.
The shame the Hulk/Bruce personalities feel, result in a murderous side of Bruce coming to the fore....a side determined to repress and conceal this info coming out at all costs. He decides to kill everybody who knew his history and basically goes over the edge.
He first kills the Ringmaster (who had helped Samson put the Hulk into a trance) and then the most chilling part is Doc Samson ringing Reed Richards and saying "REED....WORST CASE SCENARIO REGARDING BRUCE......"

then the line goes dead and it is obvious that Bruce/Hulk has killed Samson

the rest of the story was to do with Reed and Ben trying to track and take down the Hulk and the hunters becoming the Hunted.

It was a great great comic and in my opinion a rare to find classic.

for anybody who wants to know how it ended.....here goes


Spoilers:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Thing and Mr Fantastic tracked the Hulk but suddenly realised he was toying with them and is hunting them. Ben had some Gamma contraption that was supposed to immobilise the Hulk long enough for Reed to try something else to stop/kill or cure him.
In the ensuing melee........Ben fired the weapon but the Hulk somehow made Reed take the blast and it killed him. Ben was similarly exposed to the Gamma radiation and it further mutated him. The Hulk was by now rapidly changing state from grey, Green, Professor and back to Banner (even Maestro)
In a lucid moment, Banner realised he needed to be stopped and in his human form he sneaked up on Ben and shouted. Ben reacted and hit Bruce out of pure shock (and his own mind was a bit warped due the the shock of his further mutation)
Banner was presumably killed.

The comic finished with Ben flushing the journal down the toilet, as Samson and Reed excitedly enter the room


brilliant and as a stand alone story, one of my alltime favourites. the scene where Samson rings the FF was truly chilling and exemplified a monsterous aspect of the Hulk that I have rarely witnessed. I wish I could remember the writer as it was that good a story, it would be interesting to see his/her other work
 
  
Add Your Reply