Sorry about my irregular replies - I never know when I’ll next get web access. Thanks for those amazing links, Grant: they look very interesting. I've not had a chance to read them in depth, so I'll probably print them off and digest them over the weekend.
quote: Up to now it seems that we've been discussing faith in our own experiences, abilities, and perceptions of those. For me my faith in those things has been based on successes verified by clients or to put in a 'magical' context: if my thaumaturgic spells more often than not succeed in the intended goal, I will have faith that I'm doing something right and that it will have a good chance of working again in the future.
It’s much easier to rely on past experience that it is on future uncertainty, although I think that true faith is believing in what we don’t know and can’t understand. However, there is a dimension to past experience whereby we have to recognise that many theories fit the facts, and that even our interpretation of our memories and study is a faith response. There is also a tendency for spiritual events to take place despite our mechanisms, not because of them. Poor methodology may work for a season, but to carry on blindly without questioning can have a damaging effect on future progress. That comment is aimed at no one more than myself. There have been many occasions where God acted in situations despite my poor understanding and flawed approach - that’s just the lovely sweet guy He is. Don’t you just hate it when your pedantic mates pick up on every little error, no matter how unimportant, even when it’s clear that your heart’s in the right place? I’m very glad He’s bigger than that. I guess, if one were to look at God in terms of an invoked entity, that’s an area in which He’d differ: He doesn’t exert control by making you fear about misperforming complicated rituals.
quote: My 'prejudice' analogy above was about this in that most Judeo/Christian denominations state that unless it's part of the trinity, or an Angel or Saint then all spirits are bad and under the domain of Satan. It's hard to impartially diagnose a situation involving a spirit if your belief structure automatically labels them as 'evil'.
I don’t think all spirits - oustide of the Godhead - and angels are “evil.” For a start, I don’t believe that humanity is diabolic (although we often do diabolical things to each other), and I reckon we’re all spiritual beings. There are facets of the human spirit that I don’t fully understand, which may account for a lot of possession phenomena. I mean more than psychoses here: for example, we’ve chatted elsewhere about Servitors and man made spirits. Are they “evil?” I would say probably not, although they may be unhelpful or have dangerous potential. However, I do believe there are spirits that I would certainly term as “evil,” that they have a destructive agenda and that they often work as a team. The nasty beasties particularly like to work through deceit, and they’re particularly good at doing it. From your posts (Lothar and Wyrd) I’ve observed that you recognise the dangers of operating within your field - I reckon a lot of the Christian feeling is based on the same recognition of the potential dangers, and an ensuing rational decision not to get involved at all. However, not all Christians have thought it through to this extent, which unfortunately means they may speak out of ignorance of the real issues. Apologies if any of us have ever spoken out of turn at you over these issues.
quote: yours sounds a bit more 'hands on' and therefore open minded - by the way, are there any good resources regarding your type of Christianity? I don't know much about it
The Bible!  Seriously, though: I think a lot of the problems with Christianity developed when the faith was integrated into the Roman Empire. A lot of bad shit like hierarchical authority crept in (all the rank/title pompous religious nonsense that Jesus actively spoke out against). There are several things that characterise my faith (and that of others I’m involved with), and one of them is a desire to unlearn all the religion and get closer to the faith as determined in the New Testament. In other words, a relationship, not a system.
I guess it would be an understanding of God analogous to what I think you mean when you talk about spirit allies. My experience of God is that He always gives selflessly, He always loves, He always nurtures, and He always wants us to realise our full potential. He has no needs that we could possibly meet, and so when He asks things of us, it’s for our sake more than anything. In the Goetia topic, there was one comment that said something like, “If you wanted an accounting question answered, you’d ask the accountant and not the boss.” That’s true... but what if the boss started the company, creating and personally performing all the job roles, and delegating to others not through an inability to do all the jobs Himself but through a desire to see His staff develop? I’d probably still find it best to ask the man at the top, and He’s so good at time management that He can always offer an open door policy to his employees. I guess that’s how I’d justify my faith that He’s sufficient for any need. In other words, a pretty damn good spirit ally!
There’s a feeling in my church that Christians in a lot of places have got it badly wrong. As I’ve said above, I believe God is utterly consistent in His nature (who He is): however, He’s wildly unpredictable in what He does. The problem with a lot of Christians is that they’re wildly inconsistent in nature (arrogant, self righteous, spreading hatred and pain) while being totally predictable in the way they operate (expensive church building/social club. Joyless worship. Bigoted and reactionary). This explains a lot of the Christian responses to your spiritual expression - I’m simply not convinced they’ve even had a spiritual experience themselves in a lot of cases.
As far as actual resources for reading yourself, I’m afraid I can’t recommend many: this is because most of my beliefs were shaped through being very questioning, impartation from the community, and learning through experience. My reading has been sporadic, and most books I’ll disagree with as much as appreciate. I’m very lucky to belong to a church that embraces a vast range of experience, including NLP, Fair Trade, cultural diversity and creativity. A lot of my understanding also comes from my Dad  , who’s one of the most respected prophets in the western church (that sounds soooo sad, but it’s important you know where I’m coming from. Looks at shoes, embarrassed). It’s nice to sit back, watch a Western and drink a beer one minute, then have a chat about the Biblical model for authority having parallels with Chaos Theory, Complexity Theory and organic growth. I’ve had a lot of damn good teachers. I’ll post you copies of his books, if you want: they’re kinda specialised, but you may find them interesting. |
