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Question for the Adult Entertainers

 
 
Sekhmet
13:27 / 12.11.04
I know that we have some exotic dancer types on the board, as well as various other types of adult entertainers. I would like to ask for your help.

I confess, sadly, that I have numerous "issues" and hangups surrounding the whole "adult entertainment" industry - porn, strip clubs, etc. - that I'm seriously trying to get over, because it's irrational and closed-minded, not to mention prudish. It's also causing problems in my relationship with a friend who is participating in a cabaret-for-charity project. I'd like to support her, and it's for a good cause, but gaaah... I can't help thinking of it as a tawdry and dehumanizing way to get money, and the idea of her doing this makes me squirm. I also get irrationally angry at male friends who have strippers at their bachelor parties. One friend actually hired two girls to do a live sex show for a party, and I have trouble talking to him now; it's totally changed my idea about who he is as a person. I have got to get a handle on this.

I think it would help a great deal to get some idea of what it's like to be inside the industry. I have this ingrained mindset about strippers being desperate people who have no other career options, but obviously that's off base - I'm confident that the articulate posters I've seen here could do any number of other things, but choose to dance for a living.

Please, fill me in. Why do people choose this line of work? Do you think it contributes to society's objectification of women (or men)? Do you ever find it demeaning, or the patrons creepy? Does it give you a sense of power? How do you feel about people who have spouses and significant others coming to see you perform? Should that bother the significant others? What is the relationship between the performers and the patrons? Have you ever been harrassed or stalked by a customer? Does it make a difference what sort of club you're in? Are the more exclusive clubs better to work for? Is it really an art form? Do you get to express yourself artistically through dance and make it a real performance, or do the patrons just want to see flesh?

I really hope no one gets offended by my questions, it's just that I've been struggling with this for years, and now there's a truly pressing need to purge this attitude from my psyche...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:07 / 12.11.04
My sister-in-law just told me she was a lesbian (news to me) and drove me to a strip club wherein she procured an absurdly beautiful Trinidadian and insisted I accompany her for a private dance. What could I say?

I haven't told my Mrs. Is that wrong?
 
 
Sekhmet
14:23 / 12.11.04
Are you sure that wasn't a letter to Penthouse? ;-P

This does, actually, bring up another question: the group my friend is working with also did a "Girl-On-Girl-On-Girl" show, which was all female performers and an all- female staff doing a cabaret show for an all-female audience. I was extremely torn about whether to regard this as an empowering feminist act, or an incident of women objectifying other women in the way that feminists object to men doing.

Also, how do concepts like the sacred whore or temple-dancers fit into this? Do some performers approach their work as a ritual or spiritual act?

Anyone with insight is welcome to contribute...
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
14:37 / 12.11.04
I know several Dom's in my area. They feel pretty empowered by their jobs. However, most of them (those I know) are doing it because of some event that happened to them earlier in life. They are using, or have used, it to get the nastiness out and give them, in their minds, control of sex again.

As far as erotic dancers go, I have dated a few, and most of them started because of the easy money. There is objectification that happens there, obviously. I don't think they see themselves as objectified the same way you do. Most I have spoken to on the subject get a feeling of desirability from it. These men want them, so must all men. Most that I have met and conversed with have a pretty screwed up sense of self-esteem. I am not sure if that comes with the job, or if it was a pre-existing condition.

Lest anyone think I am a raving strip club patron, I have met most of them in other venues. Mainly at parties.

The one porn star I have met was the most arrogant, self-absorbed, misogynistic piece of shit I have ever known.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:30 / 12.11.04
A friend of mine used to be into S&M on a professional basis, in which ze assumed the dominant role. Rather than anything overtly sexual, this involved roleplay with 'slaves,' who were usually men in their Thirties and Forties with high pressure jobs, who enjoyed being humiliated, beaten, being made to do the washing-up and so on in their spare time - it's a bit of a cliche, but it was largely true in this case. Ze started out doing this mainly because a friend of hirs suggested it ( this friend of hirs wasn't me, in case anyone's wondering, ) though I dare say ze'd probably add that ze stuck around because of various issues to do with hir background, which I'd be reluctant to go into here. In hir experience, it was fun, easy money, and a fairly interesting insight into human sexuality ( ze was in hir early Twenties at this point, ) plus ze never had to go shopping or clean the flat. Until, that is, one of hir clients 'turned,' ie, turned extremely violent, life-threateningly so, and ze had to give up. Ze doesn't regret any of this now, but these days talks about it very much in the past tense, and doesn't feel it's something ze's likely to do again. So there you go.
 
 
Trebor
15:52 / 12.11.04
What are the boundaries of your preconceptions? I mean, whats your view of nudists? Or consider this: a person at an enclosed social gathering decides it would be fun to strip. Or not just because of the 'fun', but of the sensational aspect of it, i.e. everyone at the afformentioned social gathering will remember them as the 'crazy' one (in their eyes possibly moving themselves up the social ladder, and gaining certain supposed benefits from this). Is this not a reward akin to money in a way? Are they not also objectifying themselves, or their bodies, or their characature 'self'? Aslong as they feel safe and comfortable, would you have the same reaction to this person as you would a proffesional stripper?
 
 
ibis the being
16:08 / 12.11.04
I also get irrationally angry at male friends who have strippers at their bachelor parties. One friend actually hired two girls to do a live sex show for a party, and I have trouble talking to him now; it's totally changed my idea about who he is as a person. I have got to get a handle on this.

Not to get all Dr. Phil on you, but is their something in your past, maybe Dad being unfaithful to Mom or someone being unfaithful to you, that's fueling your reactions? You don't have to answer inthread, maybe just think about it privately. I think feeling conflicted or negative toward the sex industry (what a weird term) is one thing, but emotional reactions that - even to you - seem disproportionate to the 'offenses' might be something else.
 
 
grant
16:19 / 12.11.04
here you go.

this might help.
 
 
Sekhmet
16:57 / 12.11.04
I knew there had to be a related thread somewhere! Thanks, grant. I did do a search before I started this thread, but apparently didn't use the right keywords... will definitely check that out.

Trebor - I think I understand what you're getting at. In my mind, nudists/naturalists aren't at all in the same category as adult entertainers; the sincere nudist isn't trying to titillate. I'm perfectly comfortable at clothing-optional swimming areas or campouts - except for the people who are obviously voyeurs, just there to look at the nekkid people. I find that extremely creepy.

The line is a bit fuzzier with the party-girl-gone-wild idea, but it seems to me that a one-time incident of drunken disrobing or a strip poker party is a bit different from making a career out of inducing sexual arousal. At most it sounds like a ploy to get attention.

Ibis, you definitely have a point, but I'm not sure it's relevant... I'm not trying to avoid examining the basis of my psychological hangups; I know the basis. I'm just trying to get more information to work with in trying to combat my conditioning.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:15 / 12.11.04
This thread, on the 'ethics of the punter', might also be of relevance.

There's also this one on the status and conditions of sex workers.

Flippant answer from me: there's nothing wrong with pornography, sex work, etc, that couldn't be fixed by destroying capitalism, patriachy and heteronormativity...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:19 / 12.11.04
Actually, thinking about it, that wasn't flippant at all: just concise.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:30 / 12.11.04
While we're talking about the self-esteem issues common to sex workers, can anyone explain what kind of issues people who work in hospitalities have? Gah. Amateur psychologists step off!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:47 / 12.11.04
Now come on Crunchy, everyone knows that people are only kinky if they were nonced up as a child...
 
 
Lord Morgue
23:42 / 12.11.04
I don't consider myself to be a professional erotic dancer, however, I CAN do the Truffle Shuffle.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:52 / 13.11.04
there's nothing wrong with pornography, sex work, etc, that couldn't be fixed by destroying capitalism, patriachy and heteronormativity...

Hmmm. Sex: from each according to their abilities, unto each according to their needs.

No, somehow that doesn't fill me with confidence.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:59 / 13.11.04
Well, maybe needs outstrip abilities for a lot of people...

However, I don't think that "not Capitalist" necessarily means "Marxist" here. Rather that the mechanisms of exchange which create and inscribe power differentials within capitalism also complicate the process of sex work...
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:51 / 13.11.04
I also get irrationally angry at male friends who have strippers at their bachelor parties. One friend actually hired two girls to do a live sex show for a party, and I have trouble talking to him now.

I'm not sure your distaste for this is entirely irrational, Sekhmet ...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:52 / 13.11.04
Tann - I know that, really. I was going to suggest that any form of economic intrusion into the sexual sphere was undesirable - though probably resources are so enmeshed with sex that that's almost nonsensical - and then harp on about destruction hardly being the way to create and then I just... lost interest in my own argument, really. So I thought I'd go vattic/zipfiled and issue tone and Adornian obscurantist riddles and hope that worked instead.
 
 
Sekhmet
12:19 / 15.11.04
If you people keep throwing around long words we're going to have to move this to the Head Shop.

I actually think I agree with Flyboy, fippant or not, but I think one could also make the case that outside capitalism, patriarchy and heteronormativity, the sex industry probably wouldn't even exist.

We still don't seem to have heard from anyone inside the industry...

Thanks all for the linkies.
 
 
Papess
14:46 / 15.11.04
Hey Sekhmet, I am from the inside the industry, from many aspects of it. I am trying to write something up for you from my perspectives. (This may sink the chances of this thread ending up in HS, however! )

I just want to give you something succinct and more comprehensive than the drivel I wrote in HS in the threads you were linked to. It has been over a year since I wrote that and my philosophy about my work has been refined and changed in some ways.

I am about halfway done. I will post as soon as I can.

Cheers!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:05 / 15.11.04
I think my views on this have been summed up by Flyboy and Whisky Priestess.

It's not the sex that's seedy, it's the money and there is definitely something weird about a person who hires women to go at it in their living room (okay, maybe not actually in their living room). There's also something dirty about an industry in which a fair number of clubs fail to pay their main attraction and expect the girls to live off tips... no matter how large those tips might be.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:07 / 15.11.04
I think one could also make the case that outside capitalism, patriarchy and heteronormativity, the sex industry probably wouldn't even exist.

Well, we might not recognise it as an industry per se, but pornography would still exist, just as there are people now who produce pornography outside of those structures (eg, zines). I see no reason why any other form of sex work would cease to exist either - and in fact, from each according to their ability (taken to include their will) to each according to their need sounds like EXACTLY how sex work would operate in an ideal world...
 
 
Papess
16:47 / 15.11.04
*shivers*

Some of those resurrected threads from HS contain some of my very first HS posts. That forum should have warnings.

I also get irrationally angry at male friends who have strippers at their bachelor parties. One friend actually hired two girls to do a live sex show for a party, and I have trouble talking to him now.

I both agree and disagree with this. Watching a live sex show can be very exciting, but I often have a problem with "girl-on-girl" shows because one or both women involved, usually don't even like women sexually. It reminds me of a celebrity endorsing a product they would never use...well, kind of like that. This insincerity makes the scene unbelievable, therefore less enjoyable.

Why do people choose this line of work?

I have wanted to be a stripper since I was little, about 9. I think I thought it was glamourous then, (it's not, really). There are many freedoms as far as time and one's appearance that one wouldn't have in a regular nine-five, "normal" occupation, and the money can be quite good. Mostly, I think I decided to do this work when I was legally able to, and still do it, because I had a similar repulsion to it as you, Sekmhet. This was my way of overcoming my inhibitions and prejudgices. I remember the first time I had sex with someone after I had started dancing; it was gloriously liberating.

I think a lot of dancers/prostitutes do the work because of the money. It may allow them to remove themselves from abusive homes, or out of poverty. The problem here arises when these young women are still functioning from a dysfunctional emotional state at work and the money is spent on drugs and alcohol just to get through the emotional and mental stresses of the job.

Do you think it contributes to society's objectification of women (or men)?

Well, yes and no. Objectification is taking place in an environment that is meant for it. Just so long as I understand this, and it stays in the context it is in, I am fine with it. I don't think that because we have exotic dancing and porn in our society, it makes it perfectly acceptable to treat one's business colleagues as objects. That's demented. There is a time and place for it, and also a limit.

I think a dancer has to make the boundries of her objectification clear. I cannot delude myself and say that we are not being objectified, so I choose to deal with it by enforcing limits on the objectification. The client can imagine that I am their sexslave/mistress/mother/lover, and we can pretend/act/role-play it to an extent, but they must understand it is not real. This is "fantasy", much like most entertainment. Also, because they are objectifying me, they have already given up any claim to being genuine/real with me. It is entertainment, pure and simple, and it is my show. The extent to which I perform a role is my perogative and it may vary from day to day.

I don't expect to be objectified by the people I work with/for however, to the point where they let it interfere with how they treat myself and other dancers. The point is we are doing a job and it doesn't define who we are as individuals, but this is another issue.

Do you ever find it demeaning, or the patrons creepy? Does it give you a sense of power?

Yes, of course. There are bad apples in every crowd or audience. Most clients are quite "normal", and not some sex-crazed pervert who attempts to molest me every time I entertain them. If I let someone do that and cross my boundries without respecting them myself, then of course I am going to feel demeaned. The most demeaning aspect is dealing with bar owners and the men who work in the club (and I suppose agencies or pimps, which I don't work for). Again, it is a rather larger issue of the politics in the industry which allows (and even encourages) the stigmatization of the the workers, where in the case of exotic dancers, it is supposed to be a legitimate occupation. There are very few regulations in place to prevent the mistreatment of dancers (and definately of prostitutes, considering it is usually illegal). Dancing is legal, but there is no available recourse to pursue exsisting labour laws and apply them this industry to protect the rights of the workers, that are enforced in other industries. If, for example someone does manage to molest/violate/physically harm/or rip me off, I have no recourse for justice. This is either because of the prevailent stigmatisms and prejudice the government/society have of dancers that has caused this oversight, or the men "in charge" - the bosses, owners and bar staff - will disallow any recourse such as is the case in theft and molestation, usually. There is no way a dancer would be allowed to call the police for a sexual harrassment for example. It would have to be a pretty serious violation against a dancer, probably involving a weapon or something of similar gravity, before anyone would even care to detain a client/customer to call the authorities.

Having said that, one would wonder where the sense of power, or rather empowerment, does come from. It is from dealing with clientelle directly. There is definately body worship involved, and the freedom to express one's sexuality quite fully in the setting provided. I am able to be anything/one I wish to be in that environment. There are still many taboos placed on women in society that prevent her from acknowledging she is a fully sexual being for fear of being called a "slut", a "whore", a "homewrecker", a "succubus/vampire". The work allows for these labels to become rather meaningless since it is part of the job to be seductive and "slutty". It doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt when people call us names. It means that we have the support of our colleagues (the other workers, not management) in the industry to negate these "insults" from outsiders. I am baffled that there is so much demand for the sex industry, yet the common public will still find justification for degrading those in it. Most of the judgements about the workers are based on ignorance or personal prejudices. I think there is even a certain jealousy that the workers can make easy money. This is an utter fallacy. This work is NOT easy.

How do you feel about people who have spouses and significant others coming to see you perform? Should that bother the significant others? What is the relationship between the performers and the patrons?

To begin with, my work is focused on the customers/clients. Whatever their marital status is is not my business. What is my business, is entertaining them, even as a prostitute (as I have done before). My relationship should never leak over into their relationship with any spouse or long-term relationship they may have. There is no love commitment involved with my entertaining them. I am not infringing on the sacredness of their relationship, they would be doing that themselves as my clients. How am I supposed to know the agreements that a couple has? I look at it as adult playtime and that should never take priority over their committed obligations. Myself, I do not allow my clients to fall in love with me. As I have said before, because they have objectified me, and I work solely in the realm of fantasy, there is no recourse for pursuing a "real relationship" with me. I do know quite a few dancers that cross this line and develop relationships with customers, but I don't find it sits well with my own philosophy regarding my work.

Sometimes, customers come in as couples, which is just fantastic. I love to see a couple enjoying my show/services together. I feel that is a healthier way for them to enjoy my work, rather than one of them perhaps, betraying the other. However, I do not have the ability to know which couples have an "open relationship" (when only one shows up) and therefore, this is why I do not involve myself on an ongoing personal level too much with clients. I can be quite cruel in order to release them from their fantasies and pipe-dreams if they are becoming too clingy putting more importance on the "relationship" that I have with them.

Have you ever been harrassed or stalked by a customer?

Yes, a bit. I am very intimidating though, so rarely this happens to me. I do not like to give off any scent of being a victim, so they usually give up quickly. I draw my boundries and if they try to cross them, they will learn better than to do that.

Does it make a difference what sort of club you're in? Are the more exclusive clubs better to work for

Yes and no. Exclusive would mean that only certain people would get in, so it does limit the demographics.

Is it really an art form? Do you get to express yourself artistically through dance and make it a real performance, or do the patrons just want to see flesh?

For certain the art is an imporatant factor. Most patrons absolutely love the performance art that some strippers provide. Some strippers do not do this as well, but still have a very erotic way of expressing themselves. The customers definatley enjoy it if a dancer puts in some effort though, makes eye contact, displays some talent and ability...There are customers that are very base too, however, and they only consider T&A as a means of judging whether a dancer is "good" or not. I think they are similar to movie-goers who care little for plot-lines and are more interested in special effects and shoot-em-up chase scenes. I definately express myself and feel incredibly comfortable on the stage.

***

I want to say also, that although some people have a problem with the money and sex exchange, this work is part of our society. The fact that it is deemed as "dirty", (exchanging money for sex or sexual fantasy), keeps this work in a danger zone. This is what perpetuates the seediness. Society as a whole needs to overcome their guilt/shame and just admit that it has this need for sexual exploration that can be provided in an impersonal, non-committed manner. This would lift the condemnation of the workers and allow them to create standards and legal protocol in the industry, that cannot otherwise be attained due to the "managers and agents" and pimps that are allowed to exploit the workers, and the government that sits on it's laurels; only to get up off of it occasionally and persecute those that are in it in order to "protect" them from being exploited by giving them fines, incarceration and taking away even more dignity from them. This work has been going on for many, many years, and it is not likely to stop without a brutal militant law enforcement. That would only cause the industry to go further underground and protect it's workers even less! The only way I can see to pull the industry out of the depths of "seediness" in which it is seen and survives, is to make it more legitimate and allow the workers to unionize and self-govern. The public at large need to get over their stigmatization, stereotypes and prejudices of the industry and those who work in it in order for this to happen.

I personally have provided my service to many who in their daily life, would never, ever admit to using it. Why the shame and hypocrisy? I think it is just the way we view our own sexualities and the fear of being condemned that place this burden of shame on the heads of those who provide these services. A healthier attitude all round, would remove this. This industry is not going away, after all, lest the censorship be leaked over in many other areas.

I have read this article on prostitution backwards and forwards. It is fairly definitive of the obstacles this industry faces.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
17:25 / 15.11.04
My choice of wording in my above post was poor. I should not have used the term "easy money". I have learned, through association with dancers, that the job is anything but easy. There is a lot of physical training that goes into it, and the emotional stresses can be brutal at times. Putting up with the stereotypes can be horrible, I am sure. I apologize, BarbeLillith, I did not mean to belittle. It would have been better to say that it afforded them the most money at that point in time.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
18:35 / 15.11.04
I used to know an exotic dancer and I've watched a few documentaries on the subject, and I think it's worth noting that one of the nastier aspects of certain (most) pole/table dancing clubs in London is the way the girls are paid - that is, they aren't.

In fact, they have to pay in order to work: the "cover" can be anything from £50 to £80 a night*. The purpose of this (apart from making the house a guaranteed amount per girl per night) is to make the girls eager and competitive for the opportunity of dancing for clients. (God forbid a stripper should show any reluctance to dance or distaste for any customer ...)

Thus, in order to make her cover money back (and keep anything above that) the girl would have to do at least 4 fully nude 10-minute dances. If she only wanted to dance topless (not really an option for those with less than enormous chests) it would be more, because topless is £10* and nude is £20*. Fair enough, they can and do come away with upwards of £300 a night, but in order to make that much someone would have to be dancing for at least 3 hours straight, which is a hell of a work-out and not easy by anyone's standards (we're talking marathon time ...)

So, that sort of financial coercion is something I find pretty icky about the whole industry.

*I'm drawing examples from the set up of, I think, (my friend's club) Spearmint Rhino of a few years ago: I hope it's better now.
 
 
Papess
18:57 / 15.11.04
Cheap, Easy, Cruel: Don't worry about your oversight. I do understand what you are getting at. Even though I managed some college education, most sex workers do not have any education and this became a way to make a decent income without it. Personally, I think there should be an educational component to sex work, but that is another topic. My point is, I can see how it would be "easier" to embark on this type of career, rather than the option of living in poverty in a minimum wage job, possibly supporting dependants (ie: children, sick parents and spouses, etc...), and trying to advance oneself and financial situation from that.

There really is no such thing as "easy money" IMO, not in this world, besides perhaps, inheriting it or winning it, (both of which, could very well have their own burdens).

I do find it funny when people say this about sex work though, because most people I have met wouldn't be able to handle working at this type of job themselves. (Not that you wouldn't be able to, CEC. I have no idea what you are capable of!) But it is easier to justify one's prejudices (again, not refering to you CEC) when one can pass off the subjects of that prejudice as lazy, power-hungry, perverts, immoral...etcetera.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:19 / 15.11.04
Absolutely, BarbeLillith. I do know a lot of people who think it would be easy money. I have several friends who began dancing because it was the only viable way they could provide for themselves and their dependents.

I really don't know if I would be able to handle that sort of work. I once had the chance to become a dancer at a gay club, but didn't take it. I really was not sure if I could to put up with the groping and pawing and leering every night.

I do have a question for you though. Several of the dancers I know seem to look at every man they meet as a potential source of income (this is not necessarily isolated to dancers). Not all do this, mind you, just some I have met. It just seems like they are constantly playing men for money, whether at work or not. Is that pretty common? Or are most girls able to strike a balance between the work routine and the rest of life?
 
 
Papess
19:25 / 15.11.04
The purpose of this (apart from making the house a guaranteed amount per girl per night) is to make the girls eager and competitive for the opportunity of dancing for clients. (God forbid a stripper should show any reluctance to dance or distaste for any customer ...)

Good point Whiskey Priestess, but I have to say my personal take on the issue is that the bar owners couldn't give a damn if I do a table dance or not. They used to pay us dancers here in Canada, but since the price went up for dances, so did the expectations, from clients and owners. The pay became non-exsistant, even for the waitresses that work in these clubs, and the customers expect more for the inflated price of a dance, when the CDN $5.00 per dance was doubled to CDN $10.00, since lap-dancing has been allowed, (from 1993 in Toronto, Canada). IMO, table dances should have gone up anyway, even without lap-dancing, since it had been at five bucks since the 60's in Canada! AND lap-dancing never meant that a client could touch a girl to begin with, even though it is completely legal for them to do so now, because of this ruling. Without a voice for the workers, it is like being sexually molested by your government.

I think the owners just saw a way to cut costs and make more money....bottomline.
 
 
Papess
19:40 / 15.11.04
Several of the dancers I know seem to look at every man they meet as a potential source of income (this is not necessarily isolated to dancers). Not all do this, mind you, just some I have met. It just seems like they are constantly playing men for money, whether at work or not. Is that pretty common? Or are most girls able to strike a balance between the work routine and the rest of life?

It's a good question. I think a lot of dancers choose this work to be independant. However, a whole lot of them are especially emotionally needy and end up supporting their partners in exchange for some illusion that it will keep them with them. That is quite the reverse from your suggestion, though. This is a more likely scenaario IME, than the percieved notion that these women live off of men that they have little regard for, just to make a few bucks or get some jewelery, trips, desired items, etc...

There are definately indsicriminate dancers and other sex workers who prey on the weaknesses a client may have for them, but this, (contrary to popular belief and in my estimation), is not the norm.

There is a big difference also in the maturity levels of a dancer/sex worker, and different personal ethics, as in any business. There are people willing to shaft you as a client, no matter what industry we are talking about. So why would it be any different here?
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:47 / 15.11.04
However, a whole lot of them are especially emotionally needy and end up supporting their partners in exchange for some illusion that it will keep them with them.

I have noticed that scenario before. I dated a dancer for a while who would try to do this with me. I had a hard time convincing her that I didn't want her money, just to spend time with her.

There are people willing to shaft you as a client, no matter what industry we are talking about. So why would it be any different here?

Good point.
 
 
Ex
18:39 / 16.11.04
I also get irrationally angry at male friends who have strippers at their bachelor parties.

Everything that's been said so far puts this kind of thing into a very interesting wider context, but I thought I'd also tease a bit at the specifics - how do your friends view the event? Do they treat the employee decently, pay her fairly and refer to her respectfully? I can see myself having problems with chums doing something similar that would have nothing to do with being prudish or antisexual.

I've skirted the edge of some sex and/or nudity-related highjinks. I've had my picture taken at fetish clubs, and there is a split (for me) between the context of the production of images and then their circulation. I was only happy to consent to having the pictures taken because of both the immediate circumstances and the circulation seemed fairly agreeable:
- the camera chap seemed respectful and told me where the images would be displayed
- no money was being made out of them
- the site they ended up on had a decent gender balance and didn't favour traditional normative images and poses
- I felt it was a forum where some appreciation was given to creativity and interesting appearance, rather than just having fit birds get their kit off.

So, all those things good. I'm not sure I'd do it again as I'm very aware that images are, in a way, an act that goes on happening, and happens in different ways depending on where the images go and who sees them.

I've also been a still life model, which raised similar issues. I felt in the sessions that all the participants were respectful and that we were collaborating on interesting projects (even though my contribution was sitting still and being funny lookin'). However, whether or not the artists then went home, rated my arse out of ten and used the sketches as a dart board while reciting Dave Sim is another matter and out of my hands.

I know a few porn sites which are trying to give their models a lot of creative input and control, and more of the ultimate profits, which is laudable, but the images all go into circulation in the same culture (which, as Flyboy points out, generally needs a good shaking out and restuffing). I don't know what the solution is. I've often wondered, usually in relation to lesbian porn, if you can produce an image which cannot be viewed through a perspective which is abhorrent to those who produced the image. I really doubt it. In this sense, I wonder if live activities, especially with an element of audience control, have simpler dynamics.

Anyway, sorry to meander off on a tangent.
 
 
Sekhmet
20:27 / 16.11.04
I actually think it's fairly pertinent, Ex.

BarbeLillith, thanks very much for your input.

Realizing now that I have absolutely no problem with strippers, prostitutes, sex show workers, or porn stars - it's their audience that bothers me. Trying to get past this concept of a bunch of pervy, creepy men sneaking out behind their wives' backs to drool over and grope at girls their daughters' age, mixed in with a few rowdy, misogynistic frat boys.

I suppose really, it's the partiarchal/hetero societal view, the attitude many men display towards women, that irks. I have the exact same reaction to guys leering at cheerleaders, movie stars, pop singers or the models in Victoria's Secret. The women aren't doing anything wrong at all, they're just taking advantage of the position that men provide. They can get money, and fame, as sex objects. For women, that seems to be the most direct route to either.

I know I'm dealing with this from a very hetero-normal perspective, and I'm generalizing horribly about men. Sorry, guys. I do know a few men who don't view women this way... Very few, though. And the other guys call them "pussywhipped"...

(*sigh*)... Maybe I just need to hang out with different people...
 
  
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