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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Men who stare at goats

22:59 / 08.11.04

Okay, I missed the first epsiode, so firstly, can anyone give me a quick rundown of what it entailed, and if it is any good, and secondly what is the general Barb' feeling about Jon? Did people like his last series? Is conspiracy television old hat?

Personally I really enjoyed his last series, but I love anything conspiracy. The stuff about the Bilderburg group was great, and the stuff about the family in the hills (sorry brain dead at the moment, been writing all day, so can't think of the name of their home) and the FBI shoot out.

Anyone else?

09:47 / 09.11.04

Very weird. For the most part it consited of interviews with army soldiers who had taken one 'Nam veterans new age teachings and tried to use them to tap into paranormal powers, with a view to using them in psychic warfare. They tried to track down one of the scheme's pioneers, but he had been killed after encouraging someone to run him over with a jeep.

14:44 / 10.11.04

Weirder still, I've been hearing about this through various (though embarrassingly similar channels), in the context of US military torture-lite in Gitmo and Iraq. I doubt there's any serious connection.

14:53 / 10.11.04

I dunno... it's a deeply weird story...

14:55 / 10.11.04

i think the point of this show is that there is a serious connection, that the techniques of psychological intimidation used with such aplomb by the brave crusaders in abu ghraib come directly out of the us army's post-nam experiments with new-age thought, put together by some chap called shannon who went to esalen after vietnam and put together the first earth batalion, a hippysoldier initiative that today is still having its principles 'inventively' applied to the murkier areas of TWAT.

in general, i think jon ronson's excellent. my fiance really fancies him but i just let it slide because he has a funny and inquisitive head. one (approximate) quote from the show the other night which should tell you all you need to know:

'he wiouldn't disclose what type of animal he was using in his remote-death experiments, but he assured me the source was cheap and plentiful, so i assumed he meant hamsters.'

16:01 / 10.11.04

It's just that the interrogation techniques used at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are older than the "Earth Battalion." Playing AC/DC and Metallica really loud as PsyWar is probably more of a generational thing. The first I heard of it was when Marines laid siege to Noriega in Panama in 1989.

By now this tactic should be well-known. Last I heard, captured Iraqi rebels were requesting interrogators play Hatebeak and Cradle o' Filth.

08:40 / 11.11.04

well, the show said shannon's work and the FEB gumf was apparently first presented to the pentagon in the mid seventies, plenty of time for the tactics to be 'refined' by panama.

17:53 / 12.11.04

The show's worth watching, the Guardian articles (x2) are worth reading, I'm buying the book. Ronson's very much of the Louis Theroux style of slightly taken aback journo pretending to be dafter than he is, but it workes pretty well all in all. The first series was very good, and I enjoyed Sunday's show.

Though I'm a total conspiracy nut.

Tryphena Absent

23:14 / 12.11.04

I don't think you should read Jon Ronson's Guantanamo articles unless you've read his Weekend column. It gives you a vague impression of his geeky voice. I love Jon Ronson.

14:18 / 15.11.04

me too. i reckon, in fact, that louis theroux comes from the jon ronson school of journalism and not vice-versa. theroux's all about celebrating celebrity schadenfreude, whereas ronson takes a nice, relaxed structural look at how military and governmental institutions are predisposed towards the ridiculous in very scary ways. fuckup is still too often neglected as a useful addendum to political theory. the bits with the sesame street writers, so horrified if they thought about it for a minute that they had to pretend they were laughing about something else? bbrrr.

yawn - thing's buddy

14:37 / 15.11.04

reminds me of my fave doom patrol "why is the pentagon the shape it is?" or summat like that.

crazy generals and the singing or reading or childrens songs and stories feature there too dinnit.

this has been a great show so far - right down to the RPG font used for the first earth battalion.

And Earth battalion Jim is definitely known to Mister Six.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:26 / 16.11.04

Haven't seen the programme but the Guardian articles (excerpts from the book, I think) are excellent.

Ronson's way cool. Does anyone remember a deeply creepy episode of "The Ronson Mission", years back now, where he conducted an interview with (children's TV presenter) Janet Ellis in which he was being fed the questions by a deeply, deeply frightening Janet Ellis obsessive? After a while he just had to start ignoring the guy; he was being that sleazy.

09:17 / 17.11.04

Ronson is the man. Smart as a whip but hides it well, because of that he's able to coax things from people that he would definately not be able to otherwise. I have an awful lot of admiration for him, it's a very shrewd way to conduct his buisness and he has a way of looking at things that I really respect.

Unfortunately, I've missed this so far but I reckon I'm popping out to get the book at some point very soon.
"Secret Rulers Of The World" and "Them" were both great.

I'm pretty sure that Louis Theroux once cited Ronson as a major influence.

09:25 / 17.11.04

Hasn't Theroux been doing the whole faux-naive Brit thing for a lot longer than Ronson?

09:36 / 17.11.04

Not entirely sure, to be honest.
I did hear him quoted as saying that though.

09:50 / 17.11.04

i've just emailed him to ask.

for the unfamiliar: jonronson.com

14:06 / 17.11.04

I’m enjoying the series, but it feels a bit slow, as if it’s a 45-minute show puffed up to an hour. And the fact it seems to involve the same interviewees each week is a bit disappointing - anyone who watched part one was unlikely to be too dismayed at who ‘Jim’ was in the second episode.
But Jon Ronson seems like a fun chap – I saw him do a lecture at the Fortean Times UnConvention a few years ago, and it was good – very funny, and he kept the audience’s attention well, by showing odd bits of film and the like instead of just standing there and talking.

14:31 / 17.11.04

i thought it was kinda funny when we were hearing all these ominous noises from the subliminal messaging chap: 'i was contacted by an army intelligence guy called jim', which sounds a bit threatening and could have been lifted from (m)any west-coast loon's personal paranoia diaries. and we know it's just, well, mr six after his lobotomy. had to chuckle when we were reintroduced to him this week:

'they're playing barney as a form of torture'
'oh my garsh! ain't that sweet of 'em?'

17:27 / 18.11.04

Seeing as I apparently started the Theroux/ Ronson thing, just to clarify; "very much of the school" wasn't meant to suggest Ronson was biting Theroux's style. As many have pointed out, if anything it's the other way around.

And, with rare exceptions (the Neo-nazi episode of weird weekends, for instance) Theroux's style is soft, cuddly and aimed at making people like Paul Daniels and Jimmy Saville look stupid and creepy.

Which, let's face it, ain't hard...

21:30 / 18.11.04

He did a good show several years back called 'for the love of' (I think)

it was a late nite (CH4 UK) show where he got people around to discuss various topics

The two I remember were 'did Nasa fake the moon landings?'

and I think the other was about Numerology and the Occult

Both were enjoyable as they contained individuals ranging from respected scientists, to zealots. The arguments were a mixture of crank conspiracy theory, to well thought out and reasonable trains of thought

One more thing I will respect Ronson for is his even handed treatment of David Icke. Personally, I like Icke's stuff...I do not subscribe to everything he writes, particularly some of his more outlandish claims but I find enough gems and obvious research (such as his explanation of how the banks basically rob us blind with their periods of boom and bust and dirty tricks)
Ronson gave Icke more exposure than most TV pundits will since Icke's notorious (and he has admitted this himself) very public near breakdown in the early nineties.
Ronson had heard some accusations that Icke was an anti Semite (something that I DO NOT BELIEVE has any merit)
He spent sometime with Icke on a tour in the US and Canada and he was satisfied that Icke (though not all his promoters and entourage) had some wild beliefs but in no way was a racist.

Personally, I found this quite comforting, in that it would have been so easy for John to jump on the bandwagon and ridicule Icke but he didn't and allowed his own experiences to reach an opinion. In the world of TV pundits and presenters, his fairness and honesty was a breath of fresh air

Enjoyed the first show about the goat but I sadly missed the second episode. I have read Them by Mr Ronson and it was a pretty good read

I find him less annoying than Louis Theroux as he is more convincing as the English 'eccentric'. Theroux sails closer to the wind but I keep waiting for somebody to catch that mischevous glint in his eye and give him a smack. John Ronson is more subtle and as has been noted, he gets a lot out of this approach.

13:11 / 19.11.04

arrived in my hotmail account last night:

'I was first!'

which we sorta knew anyway, but there y'go. the missus nearly fainted.

The Natural Way

14:33 / 19.11.04

Did she hump yr leg?

14:35 / 19.11.04

it was the only way i could keep her conscious.

16:32 / 20.09.05

More Ronson media news, from Done Deal:

Title: Them
Log Line: A woman journeys to unmask the secret rulers of the world.
Writer: Mike White
Genre: Comedy
Logged: 9/20/05
More: To be adapted from Jon Ronson’s book "Them: Adventures with Extremists." Edgar Wright, Nira Park, Black and White’s Jack Black & Mike White will produce. Edgar Wright will also direct.

Jack Black? Mike (CHUCK AND BUCK, THE GOOD GIRL, SCHOOL OF ROCK) White? Edgar (SPACED, SHAUN OF THE DEAD) Wright?

This could be a wonder, or it could be a trainwreck.

16:01 / 23.09.05

Ronson cleared up the whole Ronson/Theroux thing in a recent column. So thats that then.

16:26 / 23.09.05

Ronson was first by a good few years. I remember thinking that Theroux had ripped him off first time I saw Weird Weekends. Having met Ronson (he was plugging Them) and chatted with him about the Middle East I can also say the wide-eyed niceness is genuine, whereas Theroux's seems to be more of a tactic to get people to open up.