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If You Can't Beat 'Em...

19:58 / 08.11.04

I got here to find that some of us have been having pretty similar crazy ideas. I'm starting a new thread because I'd like to talk about the organizational aspects rather than the more solitary aspects. (I mean, I know we collaborate but we don't start churches that I know of.)

I was raised almost completely secular, but over the past year I have been becoming fascinated by such things as Christian anti-war and environmental movements, Jimmy Carter's non-flaming-sword evangelicalism, and the priest (Episcopalian?) I saw holding a "No on 36" sign, Measure 36 being the anti-gay marriage amendment here in Oregon. I find that the typical liberal first reaction (and I am including myself here) is to explain the election as the actions of millions of backward rednecks with value systems millennia out of date. This feels good for the first week of wallowing but it's not going to get us anywhere.

I began to think about how I'd like to involve myself in the Religious Left, but how it wouldn't feel right as a non-believer. And then I said: Am I a chaos magician or what? So, I've been thinking of converting, if I can find a church which is of suitably liberal politics but is less 'Anything goes' than the Unitarians.

Last night, synchronicity handed me the phrase: "Wisdom begins when one learns the difference between, 'That doesn't make sense,' and 'I don't understand.'" The only way I'm going to understand is to come at Christianity from the inside out. Now, that might be through reading a lot of CS Lewis and other Christian apologies and philosophies (suggestions?), but I'm thinking that to really get this, I might have to be approaching from a position of faith rather than as an informed outsider, and pull a serious belief shift (and that's not something I would be taking lightly).

Clever, or stupid?

20:23 / 08.11.04

Clever.
(must run, more later)

~L

Unconditional Love

00:31 / 09.11.04

just one thing id recommend, set up cues or triggers to provoke you out of the belief before you accept it, you have probably thought of it, i use music.

13:49 / 09.11.04

Hey Tommy, have you read any Thomas Merton? He was a Catholic Monk who was active in anti-war and anti-nuclear Movements and a friend of the Dalai Lama. There are sebsects in Catholicism and other Denominations that are more progressive then others.

15:38 / 09.11.04

Perfect Tommy: as I briefly stated above, I think this sounds like a good idea - for you. Probably not for everybody.

As has been extensively commented on elsewhere, Christianity seems to have (and I hate using meme-type lingo, but...) "viral" properties - in particular it is highly contagious, has a tendency to try to fill the target's entire view of reality, and - especially important, I think, in this context: it can lie dormant for years, waiting until conditions are right to reassert itself. Countless people have left their parents' religion and set out on other spiritual paths, only to find themselves suddenly re-converted with more zeal than they would ever have believed.

In your case, you say that you were raised pretty much secular - I think this might give you some protection, if you really are just looking to explore the headspace for a while. Someone else who was raised Christian (even fairly casual, nominal Christian) might find it hard to ever fully extract themselves.

Myself, I avoid Christianity and its trappings like a plague, largely because I know how succeptible I am - and my childhood programming was an ugly enough mass of guilt and spiritual paranoia that I really don't want to go back, even to visit.

Still, this sounds like a very worthwhile project - I wish you the best, and I hope you'll keep us posted.

~L

16:44 / 09.11.04

GK Chesterton is one place to start. That link is to a day-by-day quote site, which is fun.

Dr. Tony Campolo is someone whose ideas are going to be very important, I think. Well, maybe his presentation more than his ideas. He's an evangelical fundamentalist who's a lot more interested in "social justice" issues than political hot-button topics. One of his books is reviewed in a useful lineup of other resources here.

You might also enjoy browsing through First Things, a thinking Christian's magazine. There's always something to disagree with, but relatively little frothing at the mouth.

I can't encourage you enough to check out Cross and Flame, talk to some of the people there.

17:39 / 09.11.04

Hi Tommy,

I also recommend Thomas Merton. Dorothy Day was a catholic (who started out as anything but) who devoted her life to workers' rights. The Dominican sisters are working (and have been for years) to undo the damage caused by economic sanctions overseas.

There are many christians who are decent people, some who are wonderful, and many who are awful. Just like you would find anywhere else.

You might want to talk to Jesus, as well, and see what he recommends. Good luck.

18:12 / 09.11.04

I'm praying for Catholics and Christians everywhere to wise up and get in touch with what Jesus was REALLY talking about.

00:33 / 10.11.04

So, anybody know what the most popular Xtian forums are on the web? Anyone up for some infiltration?

Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown

05:54 / 10.11.04

LVX, that sounds like a rather clever idea. I'm in *he said, smiling amusedly*.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

16:09 / 10.11.04

Actually, that does sound fun. I wish had easier internet access.

16:34 / 10.11.04

I just looked around on the web and found Christianity.com. It's huge, it has tons of forums, threads, etc.

The address is http://home.christianity.com.

One mildly disturbing thing I found was a post asking why protestants hate catholics. The post was quite sincere and reasonable. At the end was a note from the moderator saying the thread had been shut down because of all the ongoing discussions about catholicism. I did not confirm that, however.

There is a prayer request thread, which made me think of our gek thread (except they don't appear to do any prayer-related cookie eating). There are music, books, and movies threads, prayer, community, you name it.

I will try to spend a little more time there, maybe. It's certainly a good way to get a handle on what they are reading, doing, concerned about, etc. Maybe there's some common ground somewhere, because right now, I'm thinking like they are a different (possibly hostile, definitely dangerous) species. But they are people. And since they're posting, I bet they would like to talk...

18:06 / 10.11.04

I saw a billboard yesterday that said:

Dear Everybody,

We Are Sorry.

- The Christians

There's a website, too: We Are Sorry

Rather touching, really.

Also, check out CrossWalk.com - they have a really nifty search function whereby you can pull Bible passages (from different versions of the Bible, even) by a keyword or phrase. Could be very useful in online discussions.

18:08 / 10.11.04

Oh, and CrossWalk also has a discussion forum.

18:46 / 10.11.04

Some marketing tips for persuading people:

1. Talk to people’s feelings, not their brains.
2. Construct language accordingly so that it resonates with the deep fears and desires of the reptilian hindbrain.
3. Make them feel empowered by what you're selling.
4. Find the common points across demographics to create a broad appeal.
5. Relate personal stories to them in very humanistic terms, and then show how these experiences brought you to the insights you're trying to get across to them.

With religious folks in general, it's best not to try to convince them with facts. Speak to them in their terms. Speak from the heart to the heart.

And thanks for the forum link!

19:24 / 10.11.04

just one thing id recommend, set up cues or triggers to provoke you out of the belief before you accept it, you have probably thought of it, i use music.

Hm... I don't know about that. For some reason it seems disingenuous in some sense to take on a drastic belief shift with an expiration date. I have the feeling that, if it is to be meaningful, I must go in with the realization that it might be a lifelong conversion. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that if I were to leave again, it ought to be as difficult and meaningful as arriving, and include just as much soul-searching. I know there's this idea of slipping into and out of beliefs like platform shoes, but I don't think that's always the correct method. Here, I want to be genuinely able to disagree from a place of understanding, and dig out this lump of befuddlement that has been shouting at the radio news for the last week.

Lots of reading for me, and I'm looking forward to checking out the forums when I have more internet time.

Hm... I just realized that except for weddings and funerals, I've been at a Christian religious service only twice that I'm aware of, and never on my own. It might take me a while to work up the nerve to just, y'know, show up.

Unconditional Love

21:26 / 10.11.04

fair enough tommy, but thats from my own personal experience, its not nessecarily about a expiration date more about leaving a backdoor in your own programming, so you can access your own loop so to speak. ie so you can step outside yourself and see whats going on, third person perspective, take as many as possible of lifes variables into account.

remember your dealing with very old powerful structures and people, they embody the spirit of there religion, they arent play acting. and in my experience, some of them can be real assholes, both on and off the pitch so to speak. some of them are great as well full of all the values that in my opinion christianity should embody, compassion, mercy etc etc, but just like any system of thought there are the rules lawyers as well. i am slightly over cautious, but id suggest watching your back, under your feet and over your head, develope a third eye.

03:36 / 11.11.04

You should probably be aware that "christianity.com" is the same as the "CBBS" we've been referring to on the thread about Online Communities Ganesh started in the Switchboard.

16:36 / 11.11.04

And I was just going to post about the interesting topics I saw being discussed on forums.christianity.com (eg, is bush the antichrist? how do christians wage a just war? what if Jesus came to America, etc). Now I know why! They were probably all introduced by barbelithics.

I have pretty much no experience with "christians," but I was a catholic (and a really good one) for several years, long enough to receive all of my sacraments. I joyfully threw myself into it with everything I had, and then one day, it was gone. One day I believed, the next day I didn't. I remember noting it and not being too upset, just curious. I did nothing spiritually for months, except wait to see what was coming. And finally, I saw. But I still go to mass every week, because I like it and I feel that what I am doing now is okay with God and/or Jesus. In fact, it is not really different from what I was doing before.

The feelings are the same, the seeing is different.