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Dear God: The Temple of Barbelith Prayer Group

 
 
electric monk
18:18 / 07.11.04
Intent: To formulate a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. To gain a respect for the muliplicity of his manifestations. To ask for enlightenment for self and the world. To align morality along an axis of understanding and plurality.

Procedural: Establish a viral working group to share initial thoughts and later findings. Share prayers/mantras/etc. Establish a regular schedule of prayer. Refine the Intent and Procedural as needed.

Physical Base: General suggestion is to construct a traditional cross from appropriate materials. Do as seems right.

General Theory: It can be reasonably said that the highest aim of politics is to enable and maintain a moral society. Morality and Christianity have, through deliberate means, become synonymous in current American thought. As a result, we have a seemingly dominant morality that is somehow still able to dismiss immoral acts and governance if these are carried out by men claiming fealty to Jesus Christ. It is my contention that this need not be so. I believe that if Jesus is aware of current politics and policies, then he cannot be happy to be associated with them. Therefore, by establishing a link between ourselves and the Christian God (whom so loved the World that he sent his Only Son) , we create a means of requesting assistance and intercession that works within a current paradigm and allows us greater freedom and wisdom when discussing or debating morality and America's current path. The command "hate the sin, love the sinner" has a certain resonance with this work and could be used as a touchstone for the work.

So...is this so crazy it just might work, or just crazy? Tell me where I'm right. Tell me where I'm wrong. What could be clearer? Help in the refinement and increase the efficacy of this world living and letting live.

And before you balk, let me say this: If you can invoke Superman or friggin' Lovecraft dieties, you can certainly pray to the big J.

"We're gonna make friends with 'em till they beg for mercy."
 
 
vajramukti
19:24 / 07.11.04


I'm always down for my man Hey-Zeus.

i find it kind of amusing that these fundamentalists are always on about the anitchrist, when in actual fact, if you were to boil their interpetation of jesus down, that is exactly what the anitchrist would be.

the letter of the law over the spirit of the law, arrogance and self rightiousness, shunning those who do not look like you, act like or agree with you. condemning teenage pregnancies to misery and suffering, stripping them of the right to control their own bodies. condemmning any expression of love, regardless of the genders involved is not the path of christ.

oh and lets not forget: JESUS DROVE THE FUCKING MONEY LENDERS FROM THE TEMPLE YOU CAPITALIST BITCHES!!!

>ahem<

jesus reserves special rebuke for the hypocrites and sunday christians, as well. He has more time for prostitues and thieves than those who advertise thier so-called piety.


My lord and savior jesus christ leaves as the Lamb and returns as the Lion. Word Up.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
07:40 / 08.11.04
The great irony is that to someone of a Jewish background, such as yours truly, Jesus functions archetypically as our equivalent of The Anti-Christ. Before you reflexively respond, I mean that less as any Satanic connotation but rather as a destroyer of comfortable paradigms, much as Horus is thought to function (though, etymologically, the Jesus mythology is more immediately traceable to Osiris). Jews in general have had to endure a whole load of bullshit because of some of our possible ancestors supposed involvement in the purported state execution of a possibly apocryphal member of our own community. If we seem a little down on the guy, it's nothing personal; his successors have simply been wanting in some of the areas in which he reportedly excelled.

I do, however, take issue with the idea that morality and Christianity are interchangeable. I think it's been more often exhibited that the institution of Christianity is more often than not an example of how NOT to be moral, at least not hypocritically so. The same can be said of most religious institutions whose goals become more about self-perpetuation than genuine spiritual guidance, it's just that Christianity is the 800-lb gorilla in American culture, and most of Western culture as well.

I have a great amount of respect for the idea of Jesus and what he supposedly stood for, and I wish more Christian organizations were more consciously aware of that rather than making him into something inaccessible. For all the furor surrounding The Last Temptation of Christ, it was, I thought, one of the most inspiring and personal portrayals of Jesus ever committed to paper and film. A pity so few people who would identify themselves as Christian could allow themselves to be exposed to that angle.

/+,
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:33 / 08.11.04
I come not to bring peace, but a steel chair.

Thoughts on a magical understanding of the deity Jesus Christ.

Taking the lead from Alan Moore's depiction in Promethea, Christ can be understood as an aspect of Tiphareth. He's the sacrificed Sun King, the "gold of the world, pinned to a cross". He is representative of all mankind's virtues such as love, compassion, understanding, peace; but the point of his narrative is that we as a species compulsively reject this. We mock it, laugh at it, ridicule it, humiliate it, beat the shit out of it, crown it with thorns and nail it to a cross. We see something that is a reflection of the best in us, and want to drag it through the shit. But still, despite everything, Christ loves and forgives.

I think that many Christians, in accepting the literal truth of the new testament, seem to completely overlook the mythic narrative that underpins it. Which is slightly daft, given the fact that many of Jesus's attributed teachings are themselves in the form of parables.

Jesus is sacrificed so that we can realise the error of our ways. Christ on the cross is the naked lunch moment, he has to die so that we can see what's on the end of our fork. Sometimes you have to lose something before you realise its value. It's the wake up call. The moment when the neoconservative fundamentalist enforcer realises the immoral faithless protestor he has just crushed beneath his jackboot is his own precious daughter.

To my mind, that's what the metaphor of Christ dying for our sins is about, and it's certainly worth engaging with in magical terms. The Christ narrative is not about some divine emmisary of an abstract beardy middle eastern God trying to run a guilt trip on us because, thousands of years ago, he allegedly did us a big favour and kept us from getting our asses burned in a speculative hell dimension. Christ can, and perhaps should, be approached as a personification of the mythic themes contained in his story. Just like any other deity.

In these terms, when you "turn to Christ", you turn away from behavior that is driven by fear, insecurity, jealousy, envy, greed, towards simple honest open hearted compassion. You find the centre within you that is Tiphareth, stop acting in accordance with what you think you want, and start acting in accordance with what might be considered your True Will. Every man and woman is a star. To my mind, that's what Christianity should really be about. Full stop. Meditation on Christ as a diety who can guide us towards compassion and understanding. Much of this would likely make Crowley spin in his grave, but y'know, let him spin.

In Brazilian Candomble, and I think to a lesser extent, Cuban Santeria, Jesus Christ is syncretised with Oxala/Obatala. The King of the White Cloth. Oxala represents similar themes of peace, purity of heart, compassion. He is not God, Oludumare, but is thought of as an expression of God with a closer connection to and involvement with humanity. His role is quite similar to that of Christ, in that respect.

Unlike in Haitian Vodou, where the Saints are considered to be masks of the Lwa. The Brazilian and Cuban forms of African diaspora religion tend to consider the Saints and the iconography of Catholicism as being largely synomous with the Orixa. The same essential powers manifesting through another cultures symbol system. After all, we all share the same universe, the same reality, so if the Gods are real, how can there be more than one set of them?

In this sense, when we work with Christ, we work with the universal principle of peace, compassion and understanding. I'm all for playing fundamentalists at their own game, because I don't believe these people actually have a relationship with this essential personified principle. How could they be in communion with the Prince of Peace, the King of the White Cloth, and preach hatred, intolerance, homophobia, greed and war mongering? It's bullshit. It's religion as a control mechanism, a conveniant justification for something you were going to do anyway, a political tool for persuading large numbers of people to support you in actions that have absolutely nothing to do with the mysteries of that religion. The term "religion" to my mind, should mean the process of direct communication with "the divine" however you choose to frame it. Magicians do this. Not oil millionaires and crooked politicians.

It is problematic to consider George W Bush as some kind of idiot, a grinning imbecile, monkey boy figure. This popular conception certainly hasnt prevented him from getting a second term. Perhaps "Anti-Christ" is a closer fit... I think the magic needs to be put back into Christianity. Jesus needs to step in and sort out his house. I reckon it's high time the Prince of Peace stepped into the ring with a metaphoric steel chair and laid the spiritual smackdown on the candy asses of the intolerant compassionless crooks that are committing crimes in his name on a global scale.

Or something like that, anyway.
 
 
vajramukti
13:32 / 08.11.04


the interesting thing is, I think an integral part of the christ teaching is that he isn't coming back to sort out his house. while myths to that effect has been formulated, i think his litteral teachings make it clear that it's up to us to create the kingdom of heaven, and to seperate the shit from the gold, to use your wording. while the energies that the messiah represents do periodocialy return, they do not do so in the forms we previously recognised. part of our job is to recognise them actually.

by way of clarifcation, I'm a buddhist, and i belong to a fairly syncretic faction of the buddha sangha, that recognises all of what we would call the axial sages as manifestations of the infinite. i'm reffering specificially to buddha jesus mohammed, bahaulah, krishnah, moses etc...

once you've made allowances for social teachings adressed to different people, and historical adavancement, you can see they all teach pretty much the same thing with different emphasis. they all focus upon unconditional love of god as the souce of spiritual growth. while the buddha did not use the word god, his conception of the infinite unmanifest emptiness is perhaps more technically correct than old testament visions of the father-god.

the other thing that i wanted to stress is that all of these manifestions and most certainly christ. teach social progress and reform. the need for evolution in society and in the law, the need to overturn old structures tht serve only to hold us back, the spirit of the law, not the letter and all that.

so it's doubly tragic that the jews refuse to acknowledge jesus, the christians refuse to acknowledge mohammed, and and the muslims refuse to acknowledge bahaulah, when you could make a strong case for continuity of teaching all the way through.

so it is without a doubt in keeping with the christ force to overturn backward thinking, old social norms and existing prejudices. that is his very message, in essence.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:43 / 08.11.04

the interesting thing is, I think an integral part of the christ teaching is that he isn't coming back to sort out his house. while myths to that effect has been formulated, i think his literal teachings make it clear that it's up to us to create the kingdom of heaven

Yeah, I agree. I wasn't really implying that Christ should literally come back, either in physical form or via some kind of direct divine intervention that will suddenly sort everything out overnight, but that the meaning of Christ and the spirit of his actual teachings need to become ascendant over the "letter of the law" on a widespread scale.

I think there's a lot of scope for working magically with these ideas, providing a channel for the Spirit of Christ to do what it does best, reclaiming the concept of Christ as a compassionate, revolutionary force that is in direct opposition to much of what is being done in his name. For instance, I'm not sure how Fundamentalist Christians would cope with a sudden movement of visible, vocal, articulate, magically empowered Gnostic Christians finding meaning in the image of Christ and reinterpreting it as something diametricaly opposed to their social and political agenda. As has been highlighted elsewhere, the strength of the fundamentalist is their absolute certainty and conviction that they are right. How can you compete with that? You can't oppose it directly, but perhaps you can show that your faith in what Christ means is stronger than theirs, that love and compassion are bigger than fear and discrimination.
 
 
ibis the being
18:51 / 08.11.04
I was raised a Christian, which means I believed in and worshipped Jesus Christ from a young age. Couple this with the teachings I received about there being no such thing as love in the human sense (one person loving another whether it be husband, friend, child), and you can see that the existence of a loving God had to be the center of my worldview.

With the passage of time, maturity, education, and things being what they are today in mainstream Protestant Christianity, lately I've felt profoundly disoriented by the seeming disappearance (or at least invalidation) of the Loving Father and Gentle Jesus I thought I knew as a child. As an adult I went from rejecting the Baptist religion specifically, to rejecting organized Christianity, to to rejecting Christianity altogether. For me, now, the challenge is to locate that merciful deity I did feel close to for so many years amidst a mess of the most hateful and heartbreaking dogma I could ever imagine.

For a while I stopped praying, not knowing what to say to a God who His followers claimed was advocating hate and murder and deception. Then for a little while I'd just recite the Lord's Prayer, figuring that the meditative quality of recitation would connect me somehow. Most recently I just say a short and simple prayer, telling Jesus that I don't know Him anymore, and to please reveal himself in some way I can understand.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:47 / 09.11.04
I have begun praying for George Bush -- basically, praying that he become more enlightened and wise, and break out of his narrow conservative view of the world. Also praying that he develop more analytical abilities and critical thinking, and have the strength to question how he looks at problems and issues. A wiser W. may be a less threatening W. Possibly unrealistic, but I figured it's worth a shot. The whole 'pray for the ignorant to become wiser & smarter, pray for your enemies' thing...
 
 
FinderWolf
18:00 / 09.11.04
>> Most recently I just say a short and simple prayer, telling Jesus that I don't know Him anymore, and to please reveal himself in some way I can understand.

Never fear, the real God/Jesus is still there just as true and peaceful as ever, it's not like a bunch of followers twisting powerful words of wisdom around actually means Jesus/God/Zemselves is corrupt and horrible now. People have been using the Bible and religion to justify sick things for years, it doesn't mean the true essence of God is tainted. In fact, I seem to remember Jesus in the gospels being *pretty damn pissed* that people used religion and God and supposed piety to support their corrpution and hatred.

Just keep in your mind the version of Jesus that you know is the real one - you know, the one preaching peace, love, tolerance, equality, helping the poor, non-violence, etc. That's the real one. These other people calling themselves Christians are just clueless and not getting the message..."Lord, protect me from Your followers" and all that.
 
 
Seth
09:05 / 10.11.04
As has been highlighted elsewhere, the strength of the fundamentalist is their absolute certainty and conviction that they are right. How can you compete with that?

You undermine it. The best way is to have an understanding of the Bible and the way it's constructed that trumps their understanding. And be canny in how you approach them, go for battles you can win. Ask questions which allow the person to discover their own flaws in logic, rather than beating them round the head. Take up a devil's advocate stance for the hell of it, overload them with different ways of considering their own religion.

But in order to do that you need to get your hands dirty and make a few friends you wouldn't otherwise socialise with. It's a lot of effort. The friendship always has to be considered as more important than the ideas that are being discussed, otherwise you're no better than the preaching street evangelist type, the headhunters who want your salvation but don't want you. At the end of the day, making the world a better place is a lot of hard work. Can you really be bothered?
 
 
illmatic
09:43 / 10.11.04
He is representative of all mankind's virtues such as love, compassion, understanding, peace; but the point of his narrative is that we as a species compulsively reject this. We mock it, laugh at it, ridicule it, humiliate it, beat the shit out of it, crown it with thorns and nail it to a cross. We see something that is a reflection of the best in us, and want to drag it through the shit.

Funny, this is exactly what Wilhelm Reich's book The Murder of Christ is about. He allegorisd Christ as the life princple, which for him was a real distinct energy in our bodies and the enviroment. The spite and hate you describe towards this princple of aliveness is a result process of armouring - which is the way we block off these livng sensations, freeze the aliveness of our bodies by habitual tensions, due to parental and societal attitudes towards aliveness, sexuality and emotion. The spite and hate arises out of the frustration this causes and thus perpetuates itself. This might be a worthwhile ingredient to the mix or any thinking about Christianity.
 
 
electric monk
11:10 / 10.11.04
So much to take in! Thanks especially for the reading recommendations. Right now, I'm reading up on Jesus' parables, but I'd like to add in the Gnostic Gospels soon. The W. Reich book sounds like additional food for thought so I'll be looking for that too.

Have added a prayer to my morning devotional and so far, so good. The Christ Energy is ramping up. I've also found my way considerably smoothed for related workings, so I think I'm on the right track.

RE the dangers of Christ study: Yeah, I was raised in a Lutheran household, so being "accidentaly born-again" has been on my mind. But in the end, I'm really trying to understand Jesus on a personal level, and I have a fair understanding of the Christian God as the Kabbalistic Crown, as opposed to the Angry Father God that seems to hold sway over many these days.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:06 / 10.11.04
It's nice to see this idea getting support. Jesus rules!

And, yeah, fundementalists are actually pretty easy to deal with, if you know where they're coming from and you've prepared for the conversation.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:45 / 10.11.04
Just finished reading The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russell. They're about the first manned mission to a planet with sentient beings, which is (naturally enough) a spaceship funded by the Jesuits. You know this immediately, so I'm not giving anything away by saying that this first mission goes... poorly.

At any rate, it was mentioned that perhaps the crucifixion represents, in part, that terrible, terrible things happen all the time, but it is possible to bring something good out of those horrors (like, say, the salvation of humanity). But that good may take generations to become apparent (which is why the author's use of time dilation at relativistic speeds turns out to be very clever). It's all about the size of your canvas.
 
 
Issaiah Saysir
20:00 / 10.11.04
My lord and savior jesus christ leaves as the Lamb and returns as the Lion.

(I always thought that was the month of March)
 
 
Issaiah Saysir
20:01 / 10.11.04
PS Daon't be pray-er haters:-P
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:31 / 10.11.04
I have a fair understanding of the Christian God as the Kabbalistic Crown

I tend to think of the Christian God as the entire Tree myself. Kether is it's most divine and rarefied aspect, Malkuth is the densest most solid form of God. So the world of matter is literally God, just condensed into a matter. Everything is divine.

Some quite interesting stuff to do with the Abyss as a damaged sephiroth, the gnostic fall into matter, and the myth of the fall from Eden going on in that as well.
 
 
electric monk
02:12 / 11.11.04
I tend to think of the Christian God as the entire Tree myself.

Hmm. I think I see what you mean, Gypsy. "What you do unto the least of my children, you do unto me", yeah? Maybe. I've not got a lot of Qabalah under my belt, so dash on a grain of salt to any of my Tree observations. I do. ;-) My "Crown" statement was based on the Creation emanating from God as the Tree emanates from the Crown (unless we start talking about the Ain Soph, in which case I'll sit quietly and listen as I can't quite get my head around 3 levels of Nothing).
 
 
FinderWolf
14:20 / 12.11.04
God bless George W. Bush. Fill his soul with love, light, and compassion. The real kind.
 
 
Princess
18:02 / 19.08.08
Would any one be interested in reanimating this thread as a a sort of prayer diary type thing? Where we can discuss our prayer lives and results?
 
 
grant
00:05 / 20.08.08
I'd be interested to see how that develops. I can't promise full participation because I'm *hinky* about prayer.
 
 
Princess
15:33 / 20.08.08
Well, I don't mind starting.

Last night, just after posting in this thread, I got up and got dressed properly. And I walked out into the rain so I could find a place to pray my beads. Before leaving to walk I crossed myself and offered the act of prayer to the Trinity. The idea is that it's not "me" that's praying, but that God is praying through me. I mean, I sometimes ask for specific things, but I want the things I sak for to be the things that God needs me to ask for. I think that makes sense?

Anyway, I went out and I walked slowly down to the park where I sat on a bench and worked through the beads. It's a contemplative prayer all about quieting the mind so that you can listen more closely. The nicest metaphor I ever heard about this sort of prayer is that it is meant to be like a love song or lullaby. So I always pray as an offering. It's a gift I give to God.

My Zen guru dude gave me a meditation where one segment is just about participating in celebration, the idea being that celebration is happening already. That has influenced my idea of prayer.

Anyway, I pray through the beads and watch my responses and listen for what's going on. It's a celebration and an observation. The idea is that I learn to stop telling my experience what it is and just experience it. Which is to be listening to God, maybe. Things come to my attention and I try and try to let them be.

Anyway, I prayed through the beads and halfway through the third round I got this urge to start singing, which I didn't do. I also got teary, as normally happens. It's part of the catharsis element. During prayer, I feel as if I am moving back to the "me" which is me. Prayer feels like a step towards reality. Part of that is aknowledging pent up emotion and allowing it to be released.

After prayer, I walked back home and bought some chips. I ate them with a can of beer then went to bed.

This morning I woke up with a sexy joy feeling, which made everything delightful for a bit. This afternoon I went into the bank and opened a new account and took some cash from the overdraft.

The sexy cheerful could just be chemicals, but the actively getting up and opening an account isn't my normal modus operandi. To actively do positive things is a really noticeable after effect of prayer for me. Anyway, I'm £350 up (in overdraft terms anyway) and I'm linking that, in a very non scientific way, to praying the night before. Not in a direct "I prayed for x and x occured" way, but more in that I can see positive changes in my demeanour the day afterwards and that those changes often result in me doing useful things.

How's that?
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
00:04 / 22.08.08
The idea is that it's not "me" that's praying, but that God is praying through me.

I'm not sure I really understand this. Is prayer not normally directed towards some kind of external entity - that is to say, people don't just 'pray', they always 'pray to (deity of choice)'?
I suppose I've always considered prayer to be transactional (which I know is a somewhat problematic idea), rather than simply expressive. If prayer is something that God actually does Hirself, then I'm not sure I understand what it is at all.
 
 
EmberLeo
06:04 / 22.08.08
It depends on whether you consider prayer to be a request directed at the Divine, or a conduit for bringing the Divine into the world.

There are different kinds of prayers, though, even if you just look at the traditional pre-set Christian prayers.
* There are prayers of request "Give us this day our daily bread..." "Dona Nobis Pacem" "Can I have a pony?" "Save me from your followers!"
* There are prayers of praise "Hallowed be thy name!" "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"
* There are prayers of gratitude "Thank you for healing my sister's cancer" "I really like the pony you sent!"

Then, also, people who feel their relationship with the Divine is personal often include the conversational personal-update style "Today I did some stuff, and this was hard, and that was cool. It was a good/bad/neutral day. Goodnight." My impression is that this is encouraged more in Protestant denominations?

And then there's another category if you're more into the mystical aspects of Deity relationships, which are invocations - which, if you really mean it, includes "Thy Will Be Done!"

.... Is there a thread around here that takes apart The Lord's Prayer in different translations, by any chance?

--Ember--
 
 
Jack Fear
10:26 / 22.08.08
It depends on whether you consider prayer to be a request directed at the Divine, or a conduit for bringing the Divine into the world.

Why does it have to be an either/or? Why not both/and?

The thing that seems to be missing in your taxonomy above is any sense of prayer as conversation. And the most important part of any conversation is the listening. Prayer, as you've defined it, appears to be a set of varieties of monologue—and that's certainly not my experience.

So to your list above I would add what is, for me, the most important variety of prayer—the prayer for discernment: "What do You want me to do? What is the best course of action in this or that situation? How can I best serve my brothers and sisters, and in so doing, serve You?"

Museum, you mentioned the "transactional" aspect of prayer, without really defining what you meant—is this what you had in mind?
 
 
Seth
11:27 / 22.08.08
I'd add to Jack Fear's post that listening could be broadened to *noticing what you get back.* You might ask via speech, but answers you receive may not be audible, they might be sense impressions or something visual, or a powerful smell, sometimes even a taste, or some or all of the above. It's worth making sure that you're keeping the ratio as fifty/fifty asking to being attentive for responses, I'd probably err more on the side of a thirty/seventy split in favour of attentiveness... I've noticed that a lot of people's asking/questioning prayers consist of little more than projecting doubt and confusion outwards (which is fine as long as your god is cool with that and you're aware that's what you're doing) rather than seeking a response.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:23 / 22.08.08
answers you receive may not be audible, they might be sense impressions or something visual, or a powerful smell, sometimes even a taste, or some or all of the above...

...or a string of weirdshit coincidences in the following days, or a seemingly unrelated conversation with a friend or a stranger that yields an unexpected insight, or a thought that pops into your head while you're driving or taking a shower.

I mean, I basically think that God is talking to us all the time, and that picking up on that is less a matter of literal listening (although "listening" is a convenient shorthand) than of noticing. And putting yourself in that receptive frame of mind—discernment—is both a goal of prayer, and a mode of prayer in itself.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
14:29 / 22.08.08
Museum, you mentioned the "transactional" aspect of prayer, without really defining what you meant—is this what you had in mind?

What I was really thinking of was more of a sort of bargaining - "if you help me, God, then I will do this for you /in your name". Taiwanese folk religion (what's often called esoteric Taoism, although it's a great deal more syncretic than that implies) is very much based around transactions like this. I spent a lot of last Saturday afternoon helping my partner prepare a feast for the local spirits. We put out a lot of food and drink on a table in the street, asked them to look after our household, and then burnt a lot of incense and ghost money. A lot of people in Taiwan do this every month; my partner's not terribly religious, so we only usually do it once a year, during Ghost Month.

I know that not all prayer is like this - I can see that some prayer is aimed more at praising God, or expressing gratitude. I like the idea of prayer as conversation, too. There isn't really an equivalent of the prayer for discernment in Taiwanese folk religion. The Gods (or spirits, or ghosts, depending on what ceremony is being performed) are often asked what they would like, but it's usually focused on more immediate, practical matters - would they prefer whisky or tea as an offering? How may people should be invited to the temple for a particular ceremony? That kind of thing. They're not usually consulted through the medium of prayer, either (there are a variety of methods, including spirit writing - the most spectacular form of which involves two men kind of wrestling with a very tiny chair, one leg of the chair tracing characters on the altar).

Almost all of the various kinds of prayer mentioned so far do seem to be forms of communication - there's you, and there's God, and either you're saying something to God, or God's saying something to you, or both. I'm still not very sure what the idea is that it's not "me" that's praying, but that God is praying through me means. It seems like a very different understanding of prayer.

I'm sorry if this post rambled on a bit - I know this thread is really meant to be about Christian prayer.
 
 
grant
17:26 / 22.08.08
Hmm. Maybe it might make more sense if you plumb the deep connection between "esoteric Taoism" and the kind in Laozi.

The idea of interpenetration of all things - of a transcendent presence that's just below the surface of everything there is, including you and me.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:37 / 25.08.08
The thing that seems to be missing in your taxonomy above is any sense of prayer as conversation.

I apologize for the oversight. My response was framed specifically relative to the observation that Prayer was transactional in form. I was not attempting to make an exhaustive list of everything everyone may think of prayer, so much as a list of handy examples of forms prayer may take other than Transactional. In this case, what I meant by "form" is "structure of the language used".

The way I see it, mindfulness of input is a separate question from form of output. Yes, it's downright essential if you actually want to learn from what you're doing, but it's not necessarily built in to the definition of prayer. It's more of a given if you're approaching the subject of prayer specifically as a tool for spiritual growth. That may sound redundant, but plenty of people approach it as a social tradition or as a source of comfort, and aren't thinking in terms of growth at all.

I more often approach the question from a different angle entirely, though. I usually approach the question in terms of what makes a particular action a Prayer vs. a Spell, or Meditation, or some other spiritual tool.

In that sense, again, I consider the mindfulness of what comes back to me to be necessary all around, but what distinguishes Prayer from Spell is whether I am attempting to send a message to a divine power or not.

--Ember--
 
 
Princess
15:16 / 26.08.08
grant, you are a life saver. I was really trying to think how to say that.

I sort of believe that everything is God, or was God and will become God. So part, but definetly not all, of prayer for me is about that reconciliation. I ask that chattery mind part of me (the part that is the "me") to move out of the way and let the all-present Dude (who is not, and never really has been, seperate from me) move how ze should be moving.

Does that make sense?

It's only transactional in that it makes me happy to do it. But not every single time. Sometimes I come away feeling shitty because that closeness to God reveals ways I'm failing to honour my own divinity. But this kind of prayer isn't "for" anything, it's just about looking honestly at the world as an act of love/respect.

If everything was shitty, then I like to think I'd still be doing it. It just turned out that things, on the whole, aren't.
 
  
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