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Bang the Drum

 
  

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grant
14:38 / 02.07.01
quote:Lothar dropped this nugget: I also think using the drum (or a 'shamanic drum recording') is safer to learn with. With the drum, you can't go further than your own skills and talents can take you. You work at it over time and the spirits open more doors for you as you prove yourself. With a powerful plant ally you may go further than you are ready for.

I want to know more about this; specifically "shamanic drum recording."
A "how to," if you've got the time.

I''ve also recently dug up a musicological article on Yoruba/Santeria drumming that Betty Woo mailed me way back when. I think Hui Neng asked about it, but I could xerox it for whoever. I don't have the music theory to get the most out of it.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:37 / 02.07.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:


I want to know more about this; specifically "shamanic drum recording."
A "how to," if you've got the time.


There are a few 'shamanic journey recordings' out there that, while not optimum, are sometimes the only choice for the beginning student. While some people either don’t have access or money to buy or make a hoop drum (I definitely recommend making your own if at all possible) most people can afford to buy a cassette tape or CD. Also, most people find it easier to start journeying if they don’t have to do the drumming themselves while they’re journeying.

The Foundation for Shamanic Studies (www.shamanism.org) sells various journeying recordings. They’re not the ‘best’ but they are the most accessible. It’s best not to get hooked on the ‘crutch’ of a recording but it makes practicing journey skills easy for someone just starting out.

Drumming, and percussion in general, has been used cross-culturally for entering ecstatic trance states. There was a study (I believe done by Michael Harner) where the neurons were measured before and during a drumming session. The drum beat was at a steady rhythm of 4 beats per second and caused more neuron connections during the drumming than before the drumming. I’m not up on the tech stuff in the study but the implication was that the drumming actually increased consciousness. This is also one of the reasons why people find techno music so easy to ‘trance’ out to.

It can be hard at first to journey while drumming but, like all skills, the more you do it the easier it is. It becomes almost a Pavlovian reaction.

quote:
I''ve also recently dug up a musicological article on Yoruba/Santeria drumming that Betty Woo mailed me way back when. I think Hui Neng asked about it, but I could xerox it for whoever. I don't have the music theory to get the most out of it.


That would be very cool. I do West African drumming and while it’s different from both traditional shamanic drumming and Yoruban drumming (‘West African’ drumming comes more from Mali, Guinea, Senegal) it does have some interesting spiritual qualities to it.

All rhythms had a role within the community. War rhythms, initiation rhythms, harvest rhythms, and just plain old party rhythms.

There’s one called ‘Zebola’ (almost every village has a version of Zebola) that is a healing rhythm. Almost every time our class plays it I trance out to some degree.

There’s a really cool one called (I’m not sure the spelling so I’ll try phonetically) ‘moibeasa’. If a woman is having problems in the village she’ll ask her community for help by messing up her hair, wearing her clothes wrong, symbolizing her state of disarray. The greater the mess, the greater the problem.

She’ll go into the village and make sure that people see her. Pretty soon people come out of their homes and start drumming and dancing the rhythm. They all work up a sweat, show their support, and allow the woman with the problem to blow off some steam.

After that, the female family, friends, and elders will meet with her to discuss her problem and potential solutions.

If she comes back with the same problem three times the village won’t come out for her. She’s shown that she’s not really willing to do what’s necessary to fix the problem and until she takes responsibility for her own shit, they won’t give any more advice. If she’s acted on their advice and the problem is still there, that’s another matter.

There’s lots of really cool rhythms. I’d love to see any info you have on Yoruban stuff.
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
17:38 / 02.07.01
Interesting. Although I have no experience with shamanic drums and altered states of conciousness, I have experimented with the effects of drum machine software and binaural beat technology on conciousness- basically creating and looping a simple drum-beat and listening to it for a while on headphones. After a while the drums start to mutate and divide into all the harmonic structures that make it up, and you start hearing bells, bleeps, voices, and all kinds of weird stuff, as well as significantly trancing.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:13 / 03.07.01
Yup. There are plenty of times when I've heard all sorts of weird harmonics pop up when drumming (alone and with others).

Also, pertaining to both here and the Shamanism thread, as of just a few decades ago it was *illegal* to own a shamanic style drum in certain parts of the U.S.S.R. The government knew the history of shamanism in the area and considered it subversive against the state.

Drums are powerful and according to Dahomean legend, they were gifts to us from the cosmic serpents.

[ 03-07-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Seth
14:27 / 09.07.01
I mainly play kit drums or my Ghanaian djembe (very resonant, made from very light wood). It’s interesting to feel the differences; one is played with sticks (more control and options), the other with hands (making the rhythm feel more tactile and personal); kit playing can be quite uninvolving (as you play seated), whereas I use the djembe hung from a guitar strap while standing (allowing freedom to dance and work the movements of the body into the feel of the rhythm); one has is made with modern methods of production to very precise standards, the other produces complex sounds laced with colour and odd overtones. I’m currently making a few late additions/pruning to my kit to try and get the sound closer to the wilder feel of hand drums.

I’ve had a range of experience playing, particularly when I’ve been able to maintain a two-bar loop for more than twenty minutes (harder than it sounds, as I mainly play with other musicians who use this new-fangled song-structure thing to ensure their devotions never get too intense. Sad, I know). There have been instances where the rhythm has been instrumental in exorcisms, prophecy, healing and intercessions. I’ve found the ecstatic experience of rhythm extremely powerful - the conscious mind recedes and it feels less like you are playing and more like you’re being played, or the rhythm is blowing through you, as though you were a conduit.

My teacher strongly impressed on me the range of possibilities not only in sounds and dynamics, but also in spiritual application and history. One thing I found fascinating is that studies of drum circles not only increase brain activity but also promote unity and harmony within a group. Measured at intervals, the participants’ heartbeats fall into exact time (much in the same way as rapport can be measured if you’re talking while walking, falling into step with each other). As previously mentioned, the effect is felt in clubs (all that musical “progress” and technology used to return us to our most primal interactions). Of course, many participants may have preconceptions about style, context and technology that may enhance or detract from their involvement. I’ve experienced many situations in which I’ve played the same rhythms on kit and djembe where more people have been effected by the latter (probably due to the associations triggered by the look of the instrument. You get the same thing with all styles - no-one’s going to play an Ibanez in a punk band). Many people I know have had profound experiences of my playing but have not been able to relate to drum'n'bass or techno in the same way - and vice versa. Whatever works...

I honestly know nothing about other people’s recorded music for ecstatic experience. However, I’ve experimented with programming breaks and have a couple of suggestions. I had a lot of success overlaying two sparse beats in cross time-signatures (if you’re lacking in theory - God knows I am! - one beat may have four beats to the bar, the other five, meaning that the loop repeats every twenty bars). It’s a very easy way of creating a meditative repetition which allows for scope to explore the intricacies of the rhythm. Treating live breaks and loops to a bit of reverb (making the original sound become as though it were played in a larger, more vibrant acoustic space) will bring out unusual textures and melodies to a greater degree than “dry” sounds (ie: untreated sounds with no effects), making the experience more involving. The reverb also makes a good base on which to overlay other effects, which will effect the sound in different and involving ways. I’ve made use of pitch a pitch shifter with reverb in this way (a pitch shifter takes the original sound and plays it at a different octave or melodic interval) - using two interacting beats, one of which was completely dry. During repetitive playback, turning the dial on the pitch shifter produced unexpected melodies that drew me into a mild rapture.

Hope this helps... as far as not going further than your talents take you, I’ve found that one aspect of ecstatic drumming is that my ability is increased dramatically. Would you say that this is just my latent full power coming to the fore, or an extension of the “being played” metaphor I drew earlier?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:01 / 09.07.01
Cool! Another Djembe player! (congrats on your coming wedding by the way)

quote:Originally posted by expressionless:

I’ve had a range of experience playing, particularly when I’ve been able to maintain a two-bar loop for more than twenty minutes (harder than it sounds, as I mainly play with other musicians who use this new-fangled song-structure thing to ensure their devotions never get too intense. Sad, I know).


I love Djembes. I just played the Ghanaian version of 'kou kou' and 'Sinte' at a west african dance class yesterday. I agree with you, it's really tough to play a 'simple' rhythm continually for 5, 10 , 20 etc. minutes. It takes a lot of discipline and it also helps your 'jamming' skills as it trains your brain to get out of it's way.

quote:There have been instances where the rhythm has been instrumental in exorcisms, prophecy, healing and intercessions. I’ve found the ecstatic experience of rhythm extremely powerful - the conscious mind recedes and it feels less like you are playing and more like you’re being played, or the rhythm is blowing through you, as though you were a conduit.

My teacher strongly impressed on me the range of possibilities not only in sounds and dynamics, but also in spiritual application and history. One thing I found fascinating is that studies of drum circles not only increase brain activity but also promote unity and harmony within a group. Measured at intervals, the participants’ heartbeats fall into exact time (much in the same way as rapport can be measured if you’re talking while walking, falling into step with each other).


Exactly! I tried to find an analogy of what a GOOD drum circle felt like to a pagan friend of mine and what I came up with was instead of 'casting' a circle to contain the power you become the circle and the power flows directly through you.

quote:As previously mentioned, the effect is felt in clubs (all that musical “progress” and technology used to return us to our most primal interactions). Of course, many participants may have preconceptions about style, context and technology that may enhance or detract from their involvement. I’ve experienced many situations in which I’ve played the same rhythms on kit and djembe where more people have been effected by the latter (probably due to the associations triggered by the look of the instrument. You get the same thing with all styles - no-one’s going to play an Ibanez in a punk band).

People do have their perceptions about the 'primal' African drums (even though traditional West African drumming can be more ordered than, let's say, Jazz) but I think there are a couple of reasons that people have more of an effect with Djembes: 1) because of the centuries of ritual use of the Djembe (Djembe's are still traditionally made the same way, from the same type of tree) and; 2) I find the 'base' and 'slap' tones of the Djembe to have an almost physical effect on the chakras that kit drums just don't have. The look does figure in though. They just look so damn cool.


quote:Many people I know have had profound experiences of my playing but have not been able to relate to drum'n'bass or techno in the same way - and vice versa. Whatever works...

I personally get a stronger effect from a live drum than an electronic reproduction. But some people love their drum machines.

quote:I honestly know nothing about other people’s recorded music for ecstatic experience. However, I’ve experimented with programming breaks and have a couple of suggestions. I had a lot of success overlaying two sparse beats in cross time-signatures (if you’re lacking in theory - God knows I am! - one beat may have four beats to the bar, the other five, meaning that the loop repeats every twenty bars). It’s a very easy way of creating a meditative repetition which allows for scope to explore the intricacies of the rhythm. Treating live breaks and loops to a bit of reverb (making the original sound become as though it were played in a larger, more vibrant acoustic space) will bring out unusual textures and melodies to a greater degree than “dry” sounds (ie: untreated sounds with no effects), making the experience more involving. The reverb also makes a good base on which to overlay other effects, which will effect the sound in different and involving ways. I’ve made use of pitch a pitch shifter with reverb in this way (a pitch shifter takes the original sound and plays it at a different octave or melodic interval) - using two interacting beats, one of which was completely dry. During repetitive playback, turning the dial on the pitch shifter produced unexpected melodies that drew me into a mild rapture.

I know less theory than you do so you lost me half way through that but it sounds like a cool idea to me.

quote:Hope this helps... as far as not going further than your talents take you, I’ve found that one aspect of ecstatic drumming is that my ability is increased dramatically. Would you say that this is just my latent full power coming to the fore, or an extension of the “being played” metaphor I drew earlier?

I definitely can identify with the 'being played' feeling (in both west african and shamanic drumming). I also think, in regards to your 'latent talent', that we all have those talents and that those talents (and the drum as well) is our birthright.

The first thing anybody hears is a heartbeat (the first drum) and our own heartbeat is a metronome that gives us our 'rhythm'. The drum can help us align and amplify that rhythm to unlock ourselves, whether that be 'magical' powers or just the ability to open up and have some fun with other people and feel our rhythms merge.

This message has been brought to you by the Church of the Celestial Drum and the letter 'D'.
 
 
Seth
19:40 / 09.07.01
Lothar - you beautiful person! I must play you my djembe sometime. It roars! I completely agree with you about the sound of the central bass note. It can be felt physically. I’ve heard mine literally shake shop fronts when I’ve been busking. It seems to resonate particularly well in our church hall: the sound seems to be coming from everywhere at once. (The hall has been used for worship, music, prayer and devotions for over a hundred years, and this function is reinforced over three times a week at least. We’re at the point where the building itself is providing serious feedback. Added to this, my drums have been used almost exclusively for spiritual purposes since I bought them, and so resonate themselves).

Mine was made by a guy called Baba Tundi (I think that’s how you spell it), one of Ghana’s top percussionists, and was self-sited as epitome of his craftsmanship (sales-pitch related second-hand. I’ve only ever been to Johannesburg). Incredible sound. I’m determined to work with my kit until I’ve captured at least some of the same vibe (first step - complete my set of hand made cymbals. Do you own any cymbals? Get the right ones and it can be powerfully evocative - anything from very light harmonics to vast washes and drones. Second step - remove all dampening. I’m sure it’s possible to get sounds approaching that bass note. Too many drummers try to purify their sounds by cutting out unwanted overtones - I want to go in the opposite direction).

Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan

quote: I agree with you, it's really tough to play a 'simple' rhythm continually for 5, 10 , 20 etc. minutes. It takes a lot of discipline and it also helps your 'jamming' skills as it trains your brain to get out of it's way.

Repetition is a horribly undervalued practise. My teacher always used to say that we should be able to play the same rhythm for hours without variation. The closest I’ve come is a time in Belgium, very shortly after I bought the djembe. I wasn’t very good with it then (I’m still not great), and we were three hours into the third worship session (to paint the picture - my hands were swollen and bruised through inexperience, and I’d just taken part in my first musical exorcism minutes before. I learned a lot about endurance that weekend). Towards the end the sound became delicate and contemplative, and I began playing a rhythm that I knew my body wasn’t capable of playing (through lack of talent and fatigue). I felt as though I were being given the rhythm by God. I played that rhythm for over an hour with no variations, completely lost in a trance state. Five minutes after concluding, I tried to play it again, but it was gone: wiped from my mind as if it contained secret patterns that could not be contained within my memory (same feeling as trying to remember a dream).

I agree with you about the pre-existence of rhythm, too. Everything about us, and the world around us, is rhythmic to some extent. The seasons, the sound of water (I own a two-metre rain stick that sounds intense), the human heart beat. The most effective rhythms seem to mimic natural effects (again, a serious case for investing in cymbals if you don’t have any). I often try to visualise my own heartbeat falling into step with my bass drum, then try to visualise the effect taking hold of everyone else present.

All this has now made me think about numerology in natural phenomenon. For example, the number seven is representative of God in many cultures. It is also the interval at which naturally occurring wave patterns repeat themselves (watching waves crash against the beach, the cycle is always in patterns of seven, with the first wave being smallest and the last being the largest. This even repeats itself outside of each individual cycle, so that the seventh cycle is the largest). Imagine a rhythm born out of seven cycle crescendoes (ie, seven bars to a cycle, seven cycles to a movement, then the pattern changes or intensifies slightly - perhaps even played in 7/4, although this may be taking the piss a step too far). Does anyone want to give this a try at some point? Irrespective of talent - as long as we have a couple of experienced people to lead. Some kind of conductor may be required as well, as we may not naturally think in groupings of seven.

I guess the origins of all human music started with our voices and with rhythm, which to me begs the question: how do we see our voices employed in these exercises, in combination with the rhythm?

(Oh - thanks for the congratulations, Lothar. I’m getting really excited - it’s just over a month away, we’ve got a lovely flat lined up that becomes available three days before the service, and then we’re off on honeymoon to the Maldives for a week to have a look around before they go the way of Atlantis. Do you know anything about Sri Lankan drums?)

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:32 / 10.07.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:
Lothar - you beautiful person! I must play you my djembe sometime. It roars!


I'll pull mine out and we'll have dueling Djembe's at high noon


quote:Added to this, my drums have been used almost exclusively for spiritual purposes since I bought them, and so resonate themselves).

Very cool. In certain central African villages they actually pile food up near the mouth of their drums to 'feed' the drums. They consider them to have lives of their own.

quote:Mine was made by a guy called Baba Tundi (I think that’s how you spell it), one of Ghana’s top percussionists, and was self-sited as epitome of his craftsmanship (sales-pitch related second-hand. I’ve only ever been to Johannesburg). Incredible sound.

Do you mean Baba Olutunji (he was the guy who did all the Drums of Passion cds)? He's excellent.

quote:(first step - complete my set of hand made cymbals. Do you own any cymbals?
Nope. Right now I only play Djembe. I would like to experience other drums and other forms of music but right now Djembe is occupying all the energy I have for music (I was trying to learn to sing for awhile but after my first recital I lost interest).

quote:Get the right ones and it can be powerfully evocative - anything from very light harmonics to vast washes and drones.

I imagine it would be very similar to the overtones and harmonics you get with gongs.

quote:Too many drummers try to purify their sounds by cutting out unwanted overtones - I want to go in the opposite direction).

Sound cool. I gotta hear that someday.

quote:Repetition is a horribly undervalued practise. My teacher always used to say that we should be able to play the same rhythm for hours without variation.

I've got 'drummer's arm' today after the 1 1/2 hours of drumming I did yesterday. I have a lot of respect for the endurance of master drummers. The main rhythm I was playing yesterday had 75% of the notes being played by the right hand.

quote: my hands were swollen and bruised through inexperience, and I’d just taken part in my first musical exorcism minutes before. I learned a lot about endurance that weekend). Towards the end the sound became delicate and contemplative, and I began playing a rhythm that I knew my body wasn’t capable of playing (through lack of talent and fatigue). I felt as though I were being given the rhythm by God. I played that rhythm for over an hour with no variations, completely lost in a trance state. Five minutes after concluding, I tried to play it again, but it was gone: wiped from my mind as if it contained secret patterns that could not be contained within my memory (same feeling as trying to remember a dream).

Very cool. Sounds like that was a very powerful session for everyone involved.

quote:All this has now made me think about numerology in natural phenomenon. For example, the number seven is representative of God in many cultures. It is also the interval at which naturally occurring wave patterns repeat themselves (watching waves crash against the beach, the cycle is always in patterns of seven, with the first wave being smallest and the last being the largest. This even repeats itself outside of each individual cycle, so that the seventh cycle is the largest). Imagine a rhythm born out of seven cycle crescendoes (ie, seven bars to a cycle, seven cycles to a movement, then the pattern changes or intensifies slightly - perhaps even played in 7/4, although this may be taking the piss a step too far). Does anyone want to give this a try at some point? Irrespective of talent - as long as we have a couple of experienced people to lead. Some kind of conductor may be required as well, as we may not naturally think in groupings of seven.


Sounds intriguing, what would we have to do to proceed with this?

quote:I guess the origins of all human music started with our voices and with rhythm, which to me begs the question: how do we see our voices employed in these exercises, in combination with the rhythm?


A traditional part of shamanism is also the use of voice. Being taught songs of power by the spirits that are then used to invoke certain types of power and allies.

I've also taken some Tuvan throat singing classes and the harmonics of the overtones is really cool. You can easily trance out on it and it's a very different experience than with percussives.

quote:
(Oh - thanks for the congratulations, Lothar. I’m getting really excited - it’s just over a month away, we’ve got a lovely flat lined up that becomes available three days before the service, and then we’re off on honeymoon to the Maldives for a week to have a look around before they go the way of Atlantis. Do you know anything about Sri Lankan drums?)


Sounds like a cool trip. Unfortunately I don't know anything about Sri Lankan drums. I'm interested in anything you find out though.
 
 
Seth
05:07 / 11.07.01
quote: Do you mean Baba Olutunji (he was the guy who did all the Drums of Passion cds)? He's excellent.

Have you got any? I'd love to hear some. I bought my djembe from an English missionary who was trying to raise money to get back to Africa, so I know very little about its origins. It'd be great to hear some music by the bloke who made it!

quote: I've got 'drummer's arm' today after the 1 1/2 hours of drumming I did yesterday. I have a lot of respect for the endurance of master drummers. The main rhythm I was playing yesterday had 75% of the notes being played by the right hand.

I've found that my endurance, timing, consistency and groove have all improve since going to the gym. I also do stretching and loosening up before starting. I haven't looked into it yet, but I imagine breathing exercises help.

quote: I imagine it would be very similar to the overtones and harmonics you get with gongs.

It can be. There's also a lot of light chimes and harmonics if you play the edges and bells, as well as dynamic crashes and rhythmic effects. There's an exraordinary diversity of sound that most players never think to use.

quote: Sounds intriguing, what would we have to do to proceed with this?

Hmmm: I just noticed that you live in San Francisco (home of Quannum and Starfleet Academy. You must feel immense priveledge). I'm stuck in Blighty, I'm afraid. The drummers I know round here would just think it was weird. I have limited recording facilities, but tape swapping isn't nearly as visceral as playing together.

quote: A traditional part of shamanism is also the use of voice. Being taught songs of power by the spirits that are then used to invoke certain types of power and allies.

I've also taken some Tuvan throat singing classes and the harmonics of the overtones is really cool. You can easily trance out on it and it's a very different experience than with percussives.


I'd love to know more. We do a lot of prophetic songs and music in church that coming fully formed in terms of structure but are also very spontaneous. The song may form/manifest on the night, or may be worked on by the receiver of the word before delivery.

Do you have any more info on this (as well as singing techniques)?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:48 / 11.07.01
I've got the first Drums of Passion cd and I've heard most of the others. Good stuff.
Check out Babatunde Olatunji's stuff here

quote:
I've found that my endurance, timing, consistency and groove have all improve since going to the gym. I also do stretching and loosening up before starting. I haven't looked into it yet, but I imagine breathing exercises help.


Yup. It's interesting because I've also found that drumming has helped my kung fu. Training yourself to remember long rhythms and sticking stretches the same part of the brain that has to remember complex combinations and forms.

quote:
Hmmm: I just noticed that you live in San Francisco (home of Quannum and Starfleet Academy. You must feel immense priveledge). I'm stuck in Blighty, I'm afraid. The drummers I know round here would just think it was weird. I have limited recording facilities, but tape swapping isn't nearly as visceral as playing together.


If I'm ever in your part of the world I'll make sure to bring my drum

quote:
I'd love to know more. We do a lot of prophetic songs and music in church that coming fully formed in terms of structure but are also very spontaneous. The song may form/manifest on the night, or may be worked on by the receiver of the word before delivery.

Do you have any more info on this (as well as singing techniques)?


I think spiritual use of the human voice is very similar cross-culturally. It's one of those methodologies that just happens to work so well that any dogma just flavors instead of changes it.

The evolution of aspects of the role of shaman or priest, to bard, to entertainer is a pretty straight line. An out of print book named "The Death and Resurrection Show" by Rogan P. Taylor dealt with this subject.

In my opinion, this evolution (and subsequent unconscious role) is one of the main reasons why a lot of people have a tendency to 'deify' musicians more than writers or visual artists. There's a very close relationship between the modern day charismatic rock singer singing to a bunch of dancing and moshing listeners and a shaman singing power songs to the community while everyone dances to support the work.

As for singing techniques, I'm not good enough to really pass any on. Your church choir leader can probably teach you tons of 'regular' singing techniques. As for overtoning, I'm not qualified to teach that at all. It's hard to explain in words.
 
 
Seth
20:14 / 12.07.01
I've listed a couple of thoughts on random drums in response to something you said in the Out, Vile Thing topic. Might be helpful, might not.

Are there any recordings that you believe are inherently spiritual in nature? Godspeed you Black Emperor immediately springs to my mind, particularly "Levez-vos Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven." I get the sense that through removal of themselves and definite, rigid semiotics, they're choosing to act as conduits. It certainly has a profound effect on people I've played it to, regardless of their background. Saul Williams also sees music and language in much the same way as Alan Moore and Grant Morrison see prose and comics. Any thoughts (maybe I'll do a more detailed post later, after sleep)?
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:09 / 12.07.01
Lothar:

My Drum Head just cracked & warped

no of any places where I can get a decient drum skin . . . goat I believe. for a ceramic DUMBEK.
 
 
Seth
04:52 / 13.07.01
Any decent farm should do. Unfortunately they come in kit form.

Do it discreetly. They mustn't see the mutilated corpse and assume extraterrestrial involvement.

On second thought, don’t do it discreetly.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:43 / 13.07.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
Lothar:

My Drum Head just cracked & warped

no of any places where I can get a decient drum skin . . . goat I believe. for a ceramic DUMBEK.


Skins wear out unfortunately, I've only got about another three months on my djembe before I'll have to get it reskinned.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of any dumbek people. I would try calling "Lark in the Morning" (they're in The Cannery in SF - a really cool store that carries all sorts of ethnic instruments) and see if they have someone to reference you to.

If that doesn't work, you could try calling Matt and Ryan at "Drumskull Drums" in Soquel (they might be listed under Santa Cruz). They're the best damn West African drum makers on the West Coast (I know of at least 3 master drummers that buy from them when in this part of the world) and they might know of someone you can call. I doubt they could do it themselves but as they are part of the Santa Cruz drum scene I wouldn't be surprised if they knew some dumbek people.

Let me know what you find out.

[ 13-07-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:58 / 13.07.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:
Are there any recordings that you believe are inherently spiritual in nature? Godspeed you Black Emperor immediately springs to my mind, particularly "Levez-vos Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven." I get the sense that through removal of themselves and definite, rigid semiotics, they're choosing to act as conduits. It certainly has a profound effect on people I've played it to, regardless of their background. Saul Williams also sees music and language in much the same way as Alan Moore and Grant Morrison see prose and comics. Any thoughts (maybe I'll do a more detailed post later, after sleep)?


I think that earnest spirituality is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.

I find most New Age spirtual music to be boring and banal but I've met a lot of people that find great use for it.

I've successfully found spiritual power and truth in some heavy metal that most people wouldn't ever see. Hell, I've even used a Metallica song as a power song once. As indicated in the Tool thread from the previous incarnation of the board, I found Tool to be tapping into some powerful stuff but other people just find them pretentious.

There's been some African, Indian, and Afro-carribean songs that I've though were inherently charged with something other than just the notes of the music but that might be because I find myself attracted to those musical traditions and their spiritual role.
 
 
Pin
10:56 / 19.07.01
Sorry if this derails the thread, but considering how low down it was, I'm not sure you'll mind...

Is it just drums that can be used? Would repeated chord progressions played on a guitar, piano, tumpet, sitar, and other randomly chosen instrument have the same effect?

And expressionless: Have to tried fucking about with your kit in an attempt to get it so it's possible to play it from a standing possition? Could be worth trying if this is the major barrier stopping you from getting them emotional depth you want from it... And happy wedding for whenever it is. Gimma a date and I'll pray for you from America.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:13 / 19.07.01
I think any instrument could be spiritual but if you mean specifically for creating an ecstatic state, percussives have been more traditional and I find them to have a different quality to them. I've journeyed to flute and to overtone singing but it's very different and not as 'solid'. Percussives are generally easier to play while beginning to shift consciousness. Guitarists like Jimi Hendrix though definitely seemed to be entering altered states though.

I don't see why you couldn't experiment with different instruments, as long as the playing didn't distract you from whatever the spiritual/magical goal is it should have some effect. If that's where your talents lie then go for it and see what happens.
 
 
Seth
14:04 / 20.07.01
Cheers, Pin.

Playing kit standing up? Well, I play percussion that way. I guess you gravitate towards certain sexual positions depending on the partner…

Seriously, though: Mike Portnoy from Dream Theatre used to play standing up. That’s reason enough not to attempt it! Also, you need the balance attained from the seated position, which actually adds a lot to the spiritual dimension of playing that way – to be at peace, with good balance and posture, while hammering the crap out of your set up. I do get a lot of emotional depth out of kit playing, I think it’s just that I play djembe so rarely that the contrast is very marked.

I’m sure there’s room for these experiences playing other instruments – I just think they’re rarely associated with spirituality. The singer/guitarist from Lift to Experience says he only feels God’s manifest presence while playing (although singing while playing is a different matter). Try working on breathing techniques, or moving to the rhythm, while you’re playing. That may have an impact beyond just playing as you would normally. It’ll also help improve your enjoyment and the effect on the audience when you play live (see At the Drive-In and …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead for wicked recent examples).

Hey Pin – I’m looking for band members (specifically, someone who doesn’t mind switching between bass and geetar). I appreciate there may be problems meeting up, but your taste in toons and range of ideas seem to fit perfectly. Let me know if you’re interested (J the MD is in on the action, too).

[ 20-07-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Pin
09:54 / 21.07.01
I'd love to join your band! I think we've done the problem with meeting up... And right now all iv'e got is my acoustic guitar and a willingness to learn new ways of playing the fucker... And the only bass I could borrow is on almost permenant loan to someone else. When I get money together, however, I plan to buy meself an electric guitar and bass (as cheap and nasty as possible, with plenty o' pedals, keep your eye out for bargins, please).

If someone could give me links for more info, I'd love to find out ways to enter communion with The Great Button Pusher In The Sky on an acoustic riff... But from what was said, it seems guitarists seem to enter trances when improvising (Tuppan mentioned Hendrix, who seemed in a rapture when in solos), while percussion is from repition... anyone got any ideas as to why that is?
 
 
Ellis
09:58 / 21.07.01
I can play the maraca's AND the tamberine!

Can I join?
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 21.07.01
quote: I can play the maraca's AND the tamberine!

Can I join?


Only when you've learned to spell "tambourine." Wax on, wax off.
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 21.07.01
quote: I'd love to join your band! I think we've done the problem with meeting up... And right now all iv'e got is my acoustic guitar and a willingness to learn new ways of playing the fucker... And the only bass I could borrow is on almost permenant loan to someone else. When I get money together, however, I plan to buy meself an electric guitar and bass (as cheap and nasty as possible, with plenty o' pedals, keep your eye out for bargins, please).

What’s your budget? Do you have an amp? It’s worth spending a little extra up-front on amplifiers, because as soon as you play with a live drummer you’ll realise you need more volume/power/tone. I’m firmly of the “you get what you pay for mentality;” ie; buy a cheap shitty guitar, but make sure the intonation’s sorted so you don’t have to retune after every song (unless playing out of tune is your thrill, in which case… cool!).

(Aside: My mate was telling me about this shit-hot amp that comes with full midi sound modeling functionality. Forgotten what it’s called, but I could find out. Costs about a grand, but you can make your guitar sound like literally anything; from basses to the specific rigs of your favourite guitarist; from a keyboard to your own customised wall of squalling white noise and feedback. Yeah, it’s expensive, but find yourself a half-decent guitar and you’ll never need anything else. Buying on credit, anyone? My friend’s selling his Mesa Boogie rig, but you could get yourself the above beauty, a really nice guitar and trigger/expression pedals for the same price. Yeah, buying good gear isn’t the Way of True Punk, but it does allow you a broader range of sounds, and the ability to create noises that are far more horrible than anything the Pistols could have dreamed of. I’d love to have a band that can sound as extreme as Aphex Twin, without the synths and samplers).

quote: If someone could give me links for more info, I'd love to find out ways to enter communion with The Great Button Pusher In The Sky on an acoustic riff... But from what was said, it seems guitarists seem to enter trances when improvising (Tuppan mentioned Hendrix, who seemed in a rapture when in solos), while percussion is from repition... anyone got any ideas as to why that is? Now, I’m no expert on anything other than using the drums, but I can think of a couple of ideas:

Acoustic drums (especially djembes, with the aforementioned bass tone) allow you to physically feel the frequencies generated, as opposed to just hearing them. When I play kit, especially in my church hall, the sound response triggers deeper involvement. As a result, it may be harder to experience similar sensations with the acoustic (unless it has a pick-up, or can be mic’d up in some fashion). That’s not to say it’s impossible – I’ve seen worship leaders have all kinds of spiritual experiences with their acoustics (but then they’ve been singing at the same time).

Using Hendrix as an example is only of use if you want to use drugs to achieve similar feelings (something I’ve never needed and am not prepared to do). I would say it’s much better to learn to unlock these things within yourself, without an external catalyst). Lift to Experience seem to be able to attain other states through playing - do you want a copy of the album? It's fantastic.

Again, they’re an example of feeling “involved” with the sounds you’re creating. Being surrounded by the kit, feeling the heavy impact of the sticks on the drums and cymbals, feeling the frequency ranges coming back in my ears and in physical sensations, sweating heavily, maintaining balance and breath control, listening for inspiration from God and the other musicians, locking in tight with the flow and the rhythms of what is being created, as well as the pain and fatigue of playing past your limits: all these things add to my personal feeling of involvement in what is being made. Maybe you just need to find some of these characteristics in your own way, with the style of what you do.

(You should come to our church, mate – there have been times we’ve gone off on one and ended up playing spontanteous prohetic songs, which have sounded like a hyper-intense Mogwai after listening back. That was the particular session where I trashed my kit at the end of the service. )

Repetition works very well because of the way in which we are built on repetitive cycles. We all have a body clock that dictates when we wake, eat, and sleep. Our heartbeat forms our internal metronome. We are surrounded by interlocking and disconnected rhythms of different sorts, from the drip of a tap to the sound of traffic. I once meditated for half an hour on the sound of the printer at work. My hands and feet involuntarily tapped on my desk, the sound of the machinery became melodic and of a composed quality. Our minds also have a way of editing out repetition and background noise. Have you noticed that you can usually only hear bird song by voluntary effort, even though it goes on around you all the time? The same is true of the aforementioned traffic rhythms. It’s amazing the way your mind edits out the networks of veins in you eyes, so that you can only see it in a certain light. This function of repetition means the rhythm has passed your conscious mind and entered the subconscious, which is the trigger for moving into an ecstatic state. It is also possible to attain this through improvisation, but only if you have a very developed sense of flowing with the movement of the music, rather than intellectually trying to control events. The inspiration doesn’t flow from the active, conscious mind. When I’m caught up, it feels like the music is blowing through me from somewhere else entirely (I feel like God is playing me playing my drums). Repetition also unites a group of people, allowing them a rhythmic base to their shared experience. I’ve also heard improvisation achieve the same (even from people who do not play instruments or know music theory; these principles aren’t just for musos) – there have been moments in church when the congregation has broken into spontaneous song in Tongues, all singing different interlocking harmonies in different spirit languages. Often, this occurs with no rhythmic or repetitive cue whatsoever.

A lot of this may be why the more accomplished some musicians get, the more divorced they are from their original passion. They’ve associated their music gifts with the wrong half of their brain, and while their vocabulary is larger as a reulst, they simply don’t have anything to say.

That was very rambling and disconnected. Sorry. Let me know if you think it was bullshit, or if you’d like me to go into more detail. It's all theories built from personal experience, so I'm afraid I don't know any sites that may be able to explain further (but I will have a look later today, after I've finished work).

I understand the problems in meeting up. We could arrange for you to borrow a guitar and amp until you have your own. As far as band arrangements go, would you like to continue the discussion via e-mail (to prevent the topic derailing)?

I'd still like to try that seven/four piece I mentioned earlier. One for the band, maybe...
 
 
Seth
18:03 / 23.07.01
Would anyone mind if I broadened this into a discussion about magickal music in general, not just percussion? I think it may be heading in that direction anyway...

Any ideas? I have some stuff to say, but I'd prefer an early night, so I'll post later in the week.
 
 
Seth
09:26 / 17.08.01
The 7/4 piece I suggested has already been done. Asian Dub Foundation have written a piece called “Seven” - still, doesn’t stop other people from giving it a shot.

I’ve been meaning to post a here for a while on the subject of songwriting. I write lyrics, and my main drive has been to liberate myself from any kind of simple reader/response theory, to the extent to which I can interact with what I create on a similar level to an audience unfamiliar with the creative process involved in construction. I realised several years ago that my intention was to create a “song being” - a living organism defined by language and music. Since then, I’ve created a number of such beings (as well as punk theology bombs), that have interacted in very interesting ways with the people who have experienced them (and that’s all from just the language - no music has been added, yet).

Call me slow on the uptake, but it took me a while to link my theory with my developing understanding of Servitors. What do you think? Have I been programming song-Servitors?
 
 
Tucker Tripp
09:26 / 17.08.01
I've had all kinds of ideas regarding this topic. I, of course, also have a djembe and am traditionally a percussionist but I have moved away form organic instruments in recent years in foavour of the almight technology avaliable in music production. In this way I have a much greater scope of production at my fingertips. My aim in music in generally to induce atlered states through sound. I find these days that interesting sounds (synth of course) can be just as useful or powerful as rythm or melody.

I know from experience that trance states can be brought about through many knids of music, not just percussion.

The magickal part of my music that keeps me coming back is the constant search for ever evolving interesting sounds and states. I find that as I continue to produce music the music changes shapes, goes in different directions.

For me the satisfaction of producing a track that I actually wantto listen to is a real buzz. As is actually listening to the tune, until I move into another phase and then I generally still enjoy the track, but it takes on different, changed role, my perspective on the track changes and it sort of sounds different.

Just though I'd add my four beats worth
 
 
karma farma
09:26 / 17.08.01
after reading through this thread i have a few things to say.
-A friend of mine who is an extremely talented drummer (and painter) was taking care of two huge and ancient african drums for some african musician friends of his. he could feel the power resonate from them, so he put them off in a corner and covered them with a blanket. drums of this power can do powerful things, and he didn't know what might come from playing them so he didn't even try them out. they were at his house for a couple months sitting in a corner, and he had a party at his house. during the party someone asked him to play these drums.he was very reluctant but the person was insistent and persistant, so he obliged. he ended up playing them for a few hours straight, using the right african rhythm and cycle. well, a day later there was a big earthquake. the african guy came back for his drums a while later, and my friend asked him what the drums were used for. they turned out to be drums that were used for causing such events/rituals as an earthquake. whether it is just synchronicity, who knows, but i know that drums and rythm have power that the western world has barely scratched the surface of.
 
 
Seth
09:26 / 17.08.01
Earthquake drums: wow. That’s got me thinking about praying for the Holy Spirit to channel His resonance in my drum kit into specific purposes. I’ve also been thinking about marking the kit in some way (perhaps something on the front head).

I agree - we (pasty faced Westerners) haven’t got such a developed sense of what rhythm can do. I know a number of people that are forming drum circles and trying to explore what’s possible. While we’re all currently paddling around in the shallow end, we’re getting deeper all the time.
 
 
Aemon Reatha
06:04 / 18.08.01
As a musician myself (classical saxophonist), I find the magical potential of music the driving force behind my personal expression. The tradition of magical drumming is alive and well, and the effect of rhythm on our consciousness is recognized by more and more students of the noetic sciences. It is certainly one of the most basic activites that anyone can perform to unify mental, physical, and spiritual activities, and has the potential to strengthen our connection to our personal sources of power.

One of the most profound experiences I had in recent memory was studying rhythm in a workshop with South Indian master drummer Trichy Sankaran, and American frame drum specialist Glen Velez. Both of these teachers were the most centered and powerful people that I had ever met at that point in my life. Velez teaches harmonic singing as part of his drumming practice -- you sing static overtones while playing patterns as a way of occupying your mind with tasks that are simultaneously slow and fast. Great brain-building!

Many contemporary composers are drawn to rhythmic cycles and repetition for the trancing effect that is built-in. Check out any of the American Minimalists, like Philip Glass and Steve Reich, who revolutionized Western classical music by creating structures that were simultaneously complex and simple to perceive. More recently, New Yorker Michael Gordon has developed a music that layers rhythmic cycles at different speeds, with the effect of stretching your awareness to perceive rates of change in multiple temporal streams. His album-length piece "Trance," with the British ensemble Icebreaker, is a masterwork of this kind of consciousness-expanding music.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that music-making of any kind, whether it is participating as a performer or just an active listener, has the magic effect of making us smarter, more aware, more community-minded, more connected to life. Rythmic traditions have been aware of this perhaps a little more than melodic traditions, but it is hard to separate the two. And isn't that why we practice magic? To become better at who/what we are, smarter, happier, more in touch with the world in which we participate? Christopher Hyatt defines magick as "Brain-change willed." Pick up a drum and beat it for an hour or two, and you will discover how much your brain can change.

For those drummers who might be in Vancouver, BC in mid-September, check out the World's Largest Drum Circle. As part of the 2001 Summit on Spirituality and Sustainability, organizers are hoping to set a Guiness World Record for the most people playing a single rhythm. The current record is around 1800 people, so this time they're aiming for 5000! It should be an amazing and world-shaking event.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
15:34 / 18.08.01
This is all grist to certain vaugue notions I've been tossing around as to the use of soundwaves for magickal purposes. Anyone know anything about this?
 
 
Burning Man
20:52 / 18.08.01
I'd like to thank everyone who has posted wonder information and experience and theory about drumming. It's nice not to have to read yet another post from someone asking about sigils...

I've been playing my djembe for about a year now and feel as though I am still an egg. No big deal as I am aware of how much I need to learn.

What I have found is that playing with drumming circles bugs the shit out of me. Maybe it is differing harmonics as everyone just bangs away at whatever they want, maybe it's just that my drum gets lost in the din. I find that I work best when I am playing with my teacher for an african dance class, where I know my part. I don't mind that it is repreditive (sp?), because it helps me with my own listening and stamina issues.

By far I find that I enjoy playing the drum, and often it is the highlight of my day.

A great book I have to learn from is called, simply enough, "How to play the Djembe" ISBN 0963880144. Alan Dworksy. Comes with a CD too for self instruction. It's really improved my playing 2 fold at least because my teacher isn't alway available.

As for the person that bought the drum made by Babatunde, I don't want to burst your bubble, but unless they said Olatunji it could be any Babatunde. Babatundes are male children named for grandfathers or fathers who die shortly before the children are born. The Yoruba believe in a form of reincarnation in which the soul of the grandparent is reincarnated into the child, as well as having it's own independent spirit life. Still to be a Babatunde in the first place is pretty damn special.

have a nice ga, pa-to, do to you all.

Burning Man Mark
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:40 / 01.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Burning Man:

I've been playing my djembe for about a year now and feel as though I am still an egg. No big deal as I am aware of how much I need to learn.



I've been playing Djembe for approx. 3 years now and I'm still considered a beginner (advanced beginner or beginner intermediate at the most). I'm going to a beginning and intermediate class taught by Mamady Keita next Saturday and, if it's anything like the last class I was in, the beginner class will tweak my brain and the intermediate will completely fry what's left of it.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:40 / 01.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Pin:
Sorry if this derails the thread, but considering how low down it was, I'm not sure you'll mind...

Is it just drums that can be used? Would repeated chord progressions played on a guitar, piano, tumpet, sitar, and other randomly chosen instrument have the same effect?



When I was in Mexico I was re-reading Eliade and came across the following little nugget regarding the use of guitar on page 221:

"Among the Ostyak-Vasyugan shamanic technique is considerably more complicated. If the patient's soul has been carried off by one of the dead, the shaman sends one of his helping spirits to seek it. The spirit assumes the appearance of a dead man and goes down to the underworld. When it finds the thief it suddenly produces from its breast a spirit in the shape of a bear; the thief is frightened and lets the patient's soul escape through its throat or his fist. The helping spirit catches it and brings it back to the shaman on earth. During all this time the shaman plays the guitar and recounts his messenger's adventures. If the patient's soul has been carried off by an evil spirit, the shaman himself is obliged to undertake the journey of recovery, which is far more difficult."

I also have recently found out that Huichol shamans use (at least some of the time) violins to play their sacred songs. I'm not sure whether they use the violins to induce an altered state or not though.
 
 
Seth
11:25 / 04.09.01
quote: As for the person that bought the drum made by Babatunde, I don't want to burst your bubble, but unless they said Olatunji it could be any Babatunde. Babatundes are male children named for grandfathers or fathers who die shortly before the children are born. The Yoruba believe in a form of reincarnation in which the soul of the grandparent is reincarnated into the child, as well as having it's own independent spirit life. Still to be a Babatunde in the first place is pretty damn special.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a coincidence. Amazing snippet of information, though – cheers.

I recently attached a sigil to the inside of my djembe, the idea being that it gets charged through playing in worship. The thing is, because of the aforementioned resonance within my drums, its started to have minor effects before the intended charging has even taken place.

My djembe has symbols carved around the base (sorry - no scanner, otherwise I’d post them). I think (although this may be half remembered gibbering) one of them means “accept God.” I get the feeling these have been operating in some respect too. Can the effects take place before the meaning of the symbol is understood? Can a different effect happen if the meaning is misunderstood?

Sorry – embarrassing novice questions.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:05 / 03.10.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:


My djembe has symbols carved around the base (sorry - no scanner, otherwise I’d post them). I think (although this may be half remembered gibbering) one of them means “accept God.” I get the feeling these have been operating in some respect too. Can the effects take place before the meaning of the symbol is understood? Can a different effect happen if the meaning is misunderstood?

Sorry – embarrassing novice questions.


Were these symbols carved by you or the drum maker?
 
 
Seth
19:40 / 03.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
Were these symbols carved by you or the drum maker?


They were carved by the drum maker. They must be universal symbols, because I've seen them on the base of a great many ethnic djembes.
 
  

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