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Bush win: implications for UK?

 
 
Ganesh
19:39 / 03.11.04
It may be an attempt to turn away from what I see as a monumental human disaster in the US and for the world, but I'm wondering how the mass-murderer's apparent popular victory will affect UK politics. Listening to radio coverage, there seems to be a slight feeling of 'blahmillion Americans can't be wrong' - implication being, the fact that sufficient numbers have re-elected Bush means attacking Iraq has been accepted and is, by extension, acceptable.

Perhaps I'm overreacting to a vague nuance, but I suspect Blair's desperate and shameless enough to use any opportunity to push the 'we need to move on' line again - and the US War Against Reasoned Thought may give him further opportunity to gloss over past lies and misdeeds.

Personally, I'm feeling as dejected, disappointed and scared as I am angry. I feel I should be protesting, but it all seems increasingly pointless. Learned helplessness, I guess. I'm hoping the feeling isn't widespread, and doesn't last. If anything, we need a lot more angry protest. We can't allow Blair to use TWART to legitimise his own involvement in Iraq...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:10 / 03.11.04
Well I had the dubious pleasure of seeing A *spit* Campbell being interviewed at lunchtime today, and in a very roundabout answer to a question with regard to what he felt the Bush result had to say about attitudes to the war in general, he went on about Mr Tony's pragmatism, leadership and general fanciableness for so long that I did start to think he was losing his mind, before he eventually suggested, if not in so many words, that the UK public will make *the right choice* too, when the time comes. Ie, that when faced with the option of Blair or Howard, we'll all just suddenly put Irag to one side.

I don't know, though. For definite, Blair's going to continue trying to *move on* from the whole debacle, but unless the UK press is prepared to let him slither down quietly off his own petard ( and in the face of the almost inevitable bloodbath that's about to hit Fallujah, I find that a bit hard to picture, ) I suspect he could struggle.

I think that even for the Right Wing in Britain, today's result has possibly confirmed what a fundamentally alien place America under Bush really is ( a farce of a war with no end in sight, grossly irresponsible fiscal and environmental policies, plus a frankly regresssive approach to *moral* issues like gay rights, abortion and the fact that the Bible may in fact not be a strictly factual document, and what has it voted for ? More of the same, ) and that if anything, Blair's continued association will only prove more damaging, especially bearing in mind that Bush will have a good five months to *fuck shit up* before the UK elections.

The main trouble being, of course, that as far as Britain's concerned, Blair is Kerry. And Howard and Kennedy are in effect Ralph Nader.

I suppose the best thing to hope for is a slashed Labour majority - God only knows what insanity the Blair/Bush Relationship will try and drag us into next, but hopefully when it happens ( presumably not until at least next summer, ) it won't go over quite as well as it has done.

So trying to look on the bright side ( smiley bunnies and that, ) I don't think this result has done Mr Tony too many favours. If there has been a brief blip, it's mainly to do with the theatre of elections, and I think that by Friday, tops, everyone'll be back to feeling much as they have done, for better or worse.

Death to Tony !
 
 
ThePirateKing
00:04 / 04.11.04
I hope Mr Bush will invade the UK next bringing the bloodbath to Big Tony's own door.
 
 
Ganesh
05:49 / 04.11.04
Thanks for that.

I think that even for the Right Wing in Britain, today's result has possibly confirmed what a fundamentally alien place America under Bush really is ( a farce of a war with no end in sight, grossly irresponsible fiscal and environmental policies, plus a frankly regresssive approach to *moral* issues like gay rights, abortion and the fact that the Bible may in fact not be a strictly factual document, and what has it voted for ?

I saw the Campbell thing too - opposite Robin Cook? - and also found him bizarrely incoherent (for a supposed spinmeister) and punchably triumphalist in equal measure. You may well be right about the "alien place" aspect, though; I'm certainly feeling that quite strongly at present (it's one of the factors that's making me think, 'let's just drawww those shutters, and leave America to fuck and eat itself'), particularly on the gay rights and abortion stuff. I suspect US/UK thought and practice will diverge even further on these aspects, with the former seeming further and further removed from us.

How will it all play out with Blair? Well, I guess he's going to have to continue flying out there and having his photo taken with the mass-murderer - who, as you say, is going to seem increasingly alien, increasingly repellent. Unless, of course, the chimp does something to surprise everyone, like bothering to bring pressure to bear on Israel to knock down the wall - I don't think he loves (or even notices) Tony that much.

Blair's closeness to a hostile alien life-form may work against him, but is it likely to make much of a difference come election time here? Will proximity to Bush amp up the Blair-hate sufficiently to make people vote for the 'Nader' parties?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:36 / 04.11.04
My response, as I realised that Bush was going to win, was gut-level. I was quite surprised by how strongly I felt it, given that I'm already anti-war and intensely unhappy with Tony Blair. It was simply that George W is going to want to take America on further and better foreign adventures - Iran, North Korea.

Britain is not going along. We're just not. I won't be part of that, and I won't let Blair or anyone else take us there.
 
 
rizla mission
07:53 / 04.11.04
Yes, that's one reassuring thing at least - seeing how taking Britain into Iraq massively damaged Blair's public support and punched gaping holes in his parties parliamentary strength even BEFORE the whole thing was proved to be a bloody disaster based on lies..

Surely there is basically NO CHANCE of Blair even suggesting British involvement in future US adventures without it spelling the immediate end of his career - as of now I think even the most right-wing factions in the UK would be heavily suspicious of another unprovoked invasion, I mean, er, 'war'.

In fact, if there's one thing to offer Americans any comfort, it's Bush's almost total lack of support in pretty much every other country in the world. Standard joke among non-politically affiliated people in this country, the US's strongest ally, yesterday seemed to be "oh well, no point in carrying on those pension payments now Bush is back in to blow us all up" and such like.
 
 
Ganesh
08:24 / 04.11.04
In agreement on the strong "gut level" repulsion at the thought of joining the US on further imperial jaunts, but I'm not naive enough to think Blair won't make the suggestion as and when the 'need' arises, particularly if he himself is voted in, next year, for a third term.

At this point, my own hatred of Blair is increasingly visceral; I'm finding the sound of his voice - that stupid, hammy mock-sincere delivery - hard to tolerate. I want him out, but can't think how best to push for this.

Ideas?
 
 
_Boboss
08:58 / 04.11.04
anyone hear the delightful Myron Ebell, enviroscience advisor to the antichrist, on radio 4 smorning? global warming's a euro-plot to undermine american business interests. seriousl. humphry's did a good job of letting himself dig a real prick-shaped hole. good discussion of it over here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?thread=%3C1099560673-15253.5%40forum2.mh.bbc.co.uk%3E&find=%3C1099560673-15253.5%40forum2.mh.bbc.co.uk%3E&board=today.day&sort=Te

worth listening to a thing of the actual interview, if you can be arsed, for a taster of the apocalyptic lunacy we can expect for the next four years.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
09:40 / 04.11.04
Right. I'm going to do some reading up and stuff over the next few days but what we need to do is stand up and do our damn fucking best to counter US influences on Blair. Protest every single fucking decision Blair makes that smells of Bush (ooer!).

Nothing illegal, but we have to make them realise that the spirit of the two million people who marched on Hyde Park isn't quite dead yet. If we attack the Special Relationship in public, and we let the people of America know we're attacking it and why, we can harm the GOP/Neo Con's credibility and agenda in some small way.

Duty Now For the Future, etc.

Quote from my e-chum Will in Florida: "Boycott us. Please."
 
 
Ganesh
10:27 / 04.11.04
In a Guardian groping for silver linings, there's the suggestion that the growing cultural US/UK divide might at least force Blair into making a choice between a deeply compromised "special relationship" and properly committed Europeanism.
 
 
Bed Head
10:37 / 04.11.04
Oh Jesus, I’ve just remembered: Missile. Defence. System. I’d completely forgotten about that, what with everything else going shit. We’re completely fucked too, aren’t we? I mean, never mind about the ‘adventures’, four years from now we’ll be their official First Line of Defence, and that’s assuming the planet’s still here.

Whither CND? I’m suddenly feeling in the mood to join something. Or move to France.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:57 / 04.11.04
We HAVE to forge closer ties with Europe, before international politics itself becomes a 2-party system.
 
 
diz
12:39 / 04.11.04
Ganesh: In a Guardian groping for silver linings, there's the suggestion that the growing cultural US/UK divide might at least force Blair into making a choice between a deeply compromised "special relationship" and properly committed Europeanism.

Stoatie: We HAVE to forge closer ties with Europe, before international politics itself becomes a 2-party system.


as a disruntled US voter here, can i vent for a minute? please understand that this is irrational, and i understand the political complexities of the whole thing, but i need to get this off my chest.

as much as i want to strangle the majority of US voters, i'm exasperated with the voters in the UK, too. please stop straddling the Atlantic and join fucking Europe already. your continued attempts to curry favor with America are disgusting, and continue to give undeserved credibility to the deeply dysfunctional American political system, and continues to sap strength from its biggest real challenger, a united Europe.

think about it. which side of the Atlantic has functioning multiparty democracies, a belief in internationalism, civilized healthcare systems, largely secular and tolerant cultures, etc etc etc, and which does not? which is more like you and better represents the kind of world you believe in? what the fuck is wrong with you people that you can't see this?

America needs to be isolated. Europe needs to be stronger. please for the love of god just fucking stop hemming and hawing and go full-steam ahead into Europe. a truly united Europe would be a beacon of progress to the rest of the world.
 
 
diz
12:47 / 04.11.04
thanks for your momentary indulgence. i'm sorry if i offended anyone.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:08 / 04.11.04
The problem is that nobody wants to isolate you. You're a helluva nice people - you just seem to have gone totally nutso and elected that sockpuppet again. We don't want to get all bilateral on your ass; we want you to come and play with the other kids. But maybe you're (you singular, that is) right, and a little exclusion is called for. Trouble is, in idiot terms, we've been at war with Europe for centuries and everyone's a bit sore, and we've only had one war with you and when we lost you were quite nice about it.
 
 
Ganesh
13:13 / 04.11.04
Kinda with you on that one, Diz. I suspect it's partly a common language (and, conversely, the xenophobia engendered by lack of one) and partly the increasingly creaky concept of the "special relationship" that holds at least some of us back. Myself, I reckon it'd be better all round if we just went for it.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:30 / 04.11.04
Is anyone else considering moving to the continent as soon as they're able?
 
 
Bed Head
13:32 / 04.11.04
Diz: It’s not too politically complex. I completely agree.

Trouble is, I think many people truly believe that all Americans really like them/respect their opinions/can even point to Britain on a map. We’re continually told this. I mean, our politicians make a lot of money out of the relationship, but as far as popular sentiment is concerned, it’s not so much two countries with a common interest, as it’s the toughest boy in school and he really likes us. Yes, it’s idiotic, but well, you already know how fucking stupid people can be when they’re acting as a mob.

Any opposition to the last four years has been a little hamstrung by actually having to *think* in this way: don’t hate America, we *like* America, just disagree with some of their policies. The charge of being ‘anti-American’ has been a rather effective counter. Well, fuck that now. None of that opposition is going anywhere, and because millions of people turned out and actually voted to endorse what’s going on, at least we might start being full-blooded in our response. The immediate and, I think, instinctive turn towards thoughts about Europe is a really encouraging thing. I just hope it gathers some real popular momentum before we’ve got listening stations all over Yorkshire and we’re properly tied up for the long-term.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:08 / 04.11.04
please stop straddling the Atlantic and join fucking Europe already

I wish we would. Really, I do.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:15 / 04.11.04
Note to self: write this down. It may come in handy if push comes to shove -

Pointing to talks with Tehran, Mr Straw said: "I don't see any circumstances in which military action would be justified against Iran, full stop."

And he then proceeded to mangle the English language in a fashion worthy of another statesman of the age -

"I don't think, please God, that we are going to see in the next four years the most cataclysmic event for international relations that we have seen in 60 years which occurred on 11 September 2001," he said.
 
 
diz
14:37 / 04.11.04
The problem is that nobody wants to isolate you. You're a helluva nice people - you just seem to have gone totally nutso and elected that sockpuppet again.

the problem with that is that there are two of us. it's not that we're basically nice and we occasionally go nuts. we're like a couple locked in an abusive relationship, and the way you folks handle the "special relationship" means you're as nice to the abuser as you are to the abused.

from my perspective, Blue America is the battered wife, and Red America is her brutish husband. Britain is the charming, sympathetic neighbor who never seems to get the clue that he needs to call the cops. it's like you show up on the doorstep, and the hubby says "everything's fine! thanks for coming over!" and the wife has a black eye and keeps silently mouthing "help me! help me!" and you just smile and wave and go back to your house. then when the other neighbors (like the French and the Germans) come to you and say "that Red America is crazy. he's trying to take over the neighborhood, and look at how he treats his wife! let's band together to protect ourselves!" you say "oh, no, those Americans are such a nice couple. you just don't understand them like i do. we have a special relationship!" and nothing gets done. it's frustrating.

Trouble is, I think many people truly believe that all Americans really like them/respect their opinions/can even point to Britain on a map. We’re continually told this.

that's largely true. however, in large parts of the country, that good feeling is entirely conditional upon your continuing to suck up. half the country is genuinely fond of you and takes your opinion seriously. the other half would have turned on you like a rabid wolverine if Blair had joined Chirac and Schroeder in opposing the invasion of Iraq. blue America is largely home to friendly internationalists. red America is a mess of xenophobic nationalist bigots, who distrust and either hate or pity foreigners, but happen to like you because you speak English and you always do what you're told. the instant you stopped doing what you were told, you would be crucified.

not only are you aiding and abetting people who are trying to destroy liberal America, you're also providing them with a fig leaf that allows them to pretend they're not xenophobes. they don't really hate foreigners for being foreigners, they just hate the "crazy" and/or "corrupt" and/or "evil" foreigners. they like the "sane" (read: obedient) ones, like the British. why can't the rest of the world be as "sane" as those nice British people?

it's kind of like the evangelical Christians and Israel. they still think that Jews who don't accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior are damned to hell, but Israel is part of their End Times scenario, so they're all sweetness and light. they're not anti-Semites you see, they fully support God's Chosen People ... until Jesus comes back, at which point it will become "convert or die," and who knows when enough Christians will become convinced that we've entered that phase.

a lot of this is the residue of the Cold War. entire generations of Americans grew up believing that an apocalyptic war with the Satanic forces of Communism was looming inevitably on the horizon, and that we were destined to lead the forces of good against the Evil Empire. all our interactions with the world have been filtered through that lens. this belief got intertwined with apocalyptic dispensational theology and the internal American culture war to such a degree that, in the hearts of many Americans, the one and only question that matters with regard to foreign relations with a given country is this: "will they follow us into battle as part of the forces of the Risen Christ at the End of Time?"

if the answer is anything less than an unconditional "yes," that nation can never be fully trusted, can never be more than a temporary ally of convenience. France is the ideal example. they pretend to to be our friends, but they're really a soft, decadent people, who surrender to evil rather than fighting it and indulge their hedonistic impulses. at best, they're all weak liberal sophisticates, at worst, they're communists or perverted fags.

now even internationalist Americans like Kerry are anti-military (fake Purple Hearts, peace protestor), sexually dubious (the "metrosexual" flap on FOXNews, soft on gay marriage), liberal (from Massachusetts), unreliable (flip-flopper), anti-Christian (not really a Catholic), and, ultimately, treasonous (French-loving, the "global test"). they are not people you can count on to join the radiant battalions of the Lord in the battle of Armageddon.

that's not an exaggeration. a huge number Americans think like this. they think that God is going to come down and draw a line between the sheep and the goats, and then both sides will go to war, and the people on their side will be saved and the people on the other side will be cast into the lake of fire. the only issue of consequence is what side you will be on when the line is drawn.

these people are fucking crazy and we're stuck in here with them. the fact that you maintain the special relationship without concern for which one of us you're talking to makes it really difficult for us.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:06 / 04.11.04
Yeah, I agree with much of what you say. It's hard to know what to do, though, apart from bombard MPs with letters etc. If there's a referendum on Europe, the answer will almost certainly be 'no' (and I'd guess that there would be a strong divide between metropolitan and middle England/rural areas on that one, given the amount of interference the agricultural sector has had from Europe, not to mention there being more inherent conservatism and latent xenophobia in those areas). So until that changes, there won't be a referendum - from Labour or other pro-Europe quarters, at any rate. And if there's no yes-vote in a referendum, the politicians can do pretty much what they choose without consulting the polity... their only fear is not being re-elected, but since all the parties are pretty unpalatable, I doubt that would stop them.

Similarly, I can't see any one of the major parties being willing to scupper the 'special relationship' when actually in power, and given the fact that none of the other parties is likely to command a majority, if Tony or his Labour replacement retains sufficient power, he will be able to do more or less what he likes regarding foreign policy, as Labour no longer welcomes dissidents into ministerial positions (and in any case, most politicians of all parties are in thrall to American radical neo-con ideas re: economy etc. anyway, gah gah grr).

Anyone got any ideas? Something to rock the boat?
 
 
sine
15:21 / 04.11.04
...which side of the Atlantic has functioning multiparty democracies, a belief in internationalism, civilized healthcare systems, largely secular and tolerant cultures, etc etc etc, and which does not?

*cough-cough*

"Hello? America? Canada here. No, up here."

*clears throat*

"Yeah, here. No, we were always here. Yep, that's right, way up north. Yeah. Yeah, haha, igloos, that's, umm, that's a good one. Anyway, look, I just figured we should let you know..."
 
 
diz
15:25 / 04.11.04
*cough-cough*

"Hello? America? Canada here. No, up here."

*clears throat*

"Yeah, here. No, we were always here. Yep, that's right, way up north. Yeah. Yeah, haha, igloos, that's, umm, that's a good one. Anyway, look, I just figured we should let you know..."


sorry, just generalizing for the sake of rhetorical clarity. i'm fully aware of the existence of progressive Canada. i recently even discovered that i am, in fact, half-Canadian.

i heard someone say once that the world would make more sense if Canada joined the EU and the UK joined NAFTA.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
15:46 / 04.11.04
from my perspective, Blue America is the battered wife, and Red America is her brutish husband. Britain is the charming, sympathetic neighbor who never seems to get the clue that he needs to call the cops. it's like you show up on the doorstep, and the hubby says "everything's fine! thanks for coming over!" and the wife has a black eye and keeps silently mouthing "help me! help me!" and you just smile and wave and go back to your house. then when the other neighbors (like the French and the Germans) come to you and say "that Red America is crazy. he's trying to take over the neighborhood, and look at how he treats his wife! let's band together to protect ourselves!" you say "oh, no, those Americans are such a nice couple. you just don't understand them like i do. we have a special relationship!" and nothing gets done. it's frustrating.

Sorry for minor thread-rot, but I think that is the best analogy I have ever read. I now return you to the scheduled thread.
 
  
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