BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Thousands remember slain van Gogh

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
DecayingInsect
18:54 / 12.11.04
Not Here Again: thank you for your remarks. I believe we may discuss the culpablity of the alleged suspect here without contempt of court. The evidence, not just according to wikipedia, does seem pretty damning to me.

Baz Auckland: an imperfect filter is better than a blanket ban. Sovereign nations are not obliged to accept anyone into their borders. What do you suggest: or do you not accept that there is a problem?

Where I live in the UK there are northern towns that are polarised between poorly-integrated first generation islamic immigrants and their families and sullen empoverished whites. Wahabis and other extremists are gaining ground with the former and the far-right with the latter. Last year there were riots. It is a dangerous situation that seems to have parallels in Holland, France, Spain, Italy and Belgium.


I don't want to seem inflammatory or least of all to demonise anyone but I do believe we are in trouble.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:46 / 12.11.04
DecayingInsect Our Lady Has Lost All Hope: well now, I've been diagnosed with 'unconscious racism', often an ad hominem attack designed to delegitimise debate.

Hmm, what's the name for pointing out one aspect of someone's disagreeing with you as a way of trying to disguise the fact you're not dealing with their argument?
 
 
DecayingInsect
20:10 / 12.11.04
Our Lady Has Lost All Hope: I did address your (in my opinion entirely irrelevant) point about TM in my reply, so are you referring to yourself here?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:21 / 12.11.04
supports or sympathises with terrorist attacks on civilians

Interestingly, many secular citizens of secular nations support or sympathise with terrorist attacks on civilians, especially if they are committed by the armed forces of their own or allied nation states. Again, I have to ask whether you plan to also deport people who have been born and raised in this hypothetical pluralist utopia and have come to hold such an opinion? Do you in fact intend to screen anyone who wishes to enter the country for such opinions - say, wealthy secular white people who support American, British, French or Israeli state terrorism - or are these views only reprehensible/dangerous when combined with a religious belief?
 
 
DecayingInsect
21:23 / 12.11.04
Piracy Funds Flyboy no I oppose deportation of those who as you put it 'have been born and raised' or who have been granted citizenship. I dont recall describing a utopia, rather I'm looking for a way out of the present mess.

Please explain what you mean by 'American, British, French or Israeli state terrorism'. Are you suggesting that the governments of these nations are deliberately targeting civilians to advance an expansinist religious agenda?

Your posts in this topic have now consisted of (a) a slur, (b) putting words into my mouth (twice). Is that your debating style?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:30 / 12.11.04
Please explain what you mean by 'American, British, French or Israeli state terrorism'. Are you suggesting that the governments of these nations are deliberately targeting civilians to advance an expansinist religious agenda?

Does terrorism presuppose an expansionist religious agenda? The IRA was and is not a primarily religious organisation. Nor, for that matter, was the secular Iraq of the terrorist Saddam Hussein. Maybe we need to look at these terminologies...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:39 / 12.11.04
I haven't put words into your mouth, merely asked questions. I was curious to know how consistently you wish to see the practice of 'screening' people's opinions applied. You've cleared that up, and I'll leave it to other people to draw their own conclusions.

I'm a little confused as to why you'd even consider the term 'Islamophobia' a slur, given the views you profess.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:45 / 12.11.04
Please explain what you mean by 'American, British, French or Israeli state terrorism'.

Not sure about France - it was a hypothetical point, after all - but the instances of the nations states of the USA, Britain and Israel indiscriminantly waging war on civilian populations have been many and recent. A casual skimming of the less partisan news services' coverage of the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, should be enough to bring you up to speed.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:20 / 13.11.04
DecayingInsect Our Lady Has Lost All Hope: I did address your (in my opinion entirely irrelevant) point about TM in my reply, so are you referring to yourself here?

The point of my initial post, which I do not believe you addressed was: So why blame unconnected parts of one social group for the actions of another? You gave reasons for why you did not think my analogies were sound, fair enough. But you didn't answer that question, unless by your complaining about ad hominems, hence my response.
 
 
Francine I
22:40 / 13.11.04
Am I reading this incorrectly, or has DecayingInsect completely ignored a substantial counter-argument posted by Haus dealing with multiple aspects of DecayingInsect's earlier comments?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:17 / 13.11.04
You're not reading it incorrectly. To be honest, I'm reminded of previous instances on Barbelith where someone has proposed that a shadowy group poses a substantial threat to 'our' society (the substance of which is vastly exaggerated, usually because the group in question holds a relatively weak position and/or is already currently demonised by mainstream media/culture/political discourse), and then proposed a solution or series of solutions (which are both so impractical as to be comical and so undesirable as to not be comical at all). See: Leap and the benefit scroungers and, casting our minds into the distant past, ReformedRobotMan and the paedophiles. In those cases, as in this, objections to the validity of the danger and practicality of the proposed solutions were swept aside, and anyone who raised these objections were accused of being part of some kind of blind consensus. The idea of 'liberal consensus', or 'groupthink', or 'political correctness', is almost always invoked when someone wants to advance a viewpoint which is actually in keeping with a line of thought that is actually far more dominant in the current popular/mainstream political discourse - what we might call the overwhelming 'reactionary consensus' - in this case the idea that fanatical branches of Islam are one of the most significant threats to secular, 'pluralistic' nation states; moreover that mainstream Islam is implicated somehow and does not do enough to police these groups; that even tighter immigration controls are in any way a solution; and finally that secular nation states themselves could never be guilty of the same kind of ideas or actions that the fanatics are accused of...
 
 
FinderWolf
01:01 / 14.11.04
Just pointing out that the mainstream American media is now covering this story (Yahoo News/the AP, CNN, etc. ...)

It's always interesting when I see a story on Barbelith and then a week or so later it gets carried in the mainstream US media...
 
 
Francine I
03:20 / 14.11.04
And just for my bit...

"...rather I'm looking for a way out of the present mess."

You have yet to substantiate "the present mess".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:37 / 14.11.04
The American media is covering the story of DecayingInsect versus a few other people? Shit, I better tidy myself up.

[ /rot ]
 
 
ReformedRobotMan
12:42 / 16.11.04
As with all political assassination’s the stories that emerge are not quit the truth, and so it is with the case of Theo van Gogh. Within circles there is also talk of a conspiracy around the dead of Theo, just as it is the case with the murder of Pim Fortuyn. They were good friends. Theo even called Pim, the angel of god. before I continue I would like to set one thing straight, the young man who killed Pim was a soft spoken friendly animal rights activist, not a lawyer. One big question that remains is why would an animal rights activist kill a man who wanted to stop the animal testing in this country?

The following below is a short summation of what has happened and is happening.

Concerning the murder of Theo van Gogh, there is more to the story than meets the eyes of the foreign spectators. After the dead of Pim, Theo was the last man standing , who spoke out loud against the wrongness of many things that happen in this country. He was not just against the ways of the muslim’s, concerning how they threat females and how certain muslims use their religion to justify many things. He was against all religious fundamentalist behaviour, he hated the way christian religions is used to justify their ways, as seen with the ways of the Bush followers, of which he considered the Dutch government to be one of. He was against the jewish policies, especially, the moses followers who use their religion to justify their wrong behaviours, as seen with the Israeli/Palestine conflict. He was called an anti-semite by the Dutch jewish population who demanded that something must be done to prevent Theo from speaking like that, which resulted in him having fights with the jewish Amsterdam major. He spoke out against the war in Iraq, and called the Dutch government, the whore of the US. He was against all that what the Dutch governments has been imposing on it peoples, he was against the way this country was evolving, he called many Dutch peoples blind followers of a new nazi regime..

But most of all he was against censorship , he was a fighter of free speech, and he was getting louder and louder, especially after the murder of Pim. He even called up the Dutch peoples not to vote. Then he decided to make movies about certain matters. One pissed of the muslim population which resulted of course in many treats, even that hardly any muslim saw the movie, they formed their opinion on the news about this movie, in the news papers, and the fact that he worked with Hirsh Ali, an ex muslima now politician, who fights for the rights and freedom of the muslim females. They just shifted their hate for one moment from her to him, to later encompass them both in their hate. But its not such a big group that hated him as much as they hate her. She was the one who received the most dead treats. Simply because she is an insider and a female, who by the laws of the old male muslim mindset has to shut up and obey.

But there was something else, he made a movie about Pim Fortuyn, a movie that suggests a huge conspiracy regarding the reason why Pim had to die, he suggests that it was a governmental job. The government asked him to stop making this movie, which of course he refused. He finished the movie just before he was killed.

Theo van Gogh was killed 911 days after Pim Fortuyn was killed.

Then regarding the news, our premier Balkenende was on TV within an hour of the dead of Theo, already telling the people, what it was about and why etc, which was very strange for nobody knew anything yet, not why or who had done it. Right after Balkenende spoke on the news, another politician called Zalm spoke out in the news Declaring “War to the terrorist in this country” and “We will fight terrorism first before we talk to the muslim peoples” and there was another very strange thing, the news about the murder on Theo was first on CNN, to make it even stranger, CNN was seen in that neighbourhood in the very early morning, before Theo was killed. And there are many more discrepancies regarding the murder of Theo van Gogh

Then there was something else stirring in this country, the peoples were finally getting enough of all that the government was doing, and so finally the mass strikes started, with the last one being the biggest strike and demonstration, not seen since the 70s. the peoples even marched inside our government building, which scared the hell out of our politicians. There were plans for even bigger strikes and demonstration for the month November, December and January 2005. Because of the murder of Theo, all strikes and demonstration have been called of. The Dutch peoples have new worries, terrorist attacks.


And for the record, 1; only the windows of the few churches have been thrown in, wereas the muslim locations have been set a fire and bombed, 2; the muslim marrocan population has suffered police brutality in this country for many many years, until one generation decided to stand up and said enough is enough, 3; a very huge Dutch population has always hated maroccans, simply because they are a very proud people and speak up, 4; Tolerance in this country regarding arabs and coloured people is one of their many myths, 5; the Dutch government is following suit with the US policies regarding the muslims.

Greetings from the Netherlands
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:50 / 16.11.04
the young man who killed Pim was a soft spoken friendly animal rights activist, not a lawyer

His job was to bring and pursue judicial procedings against companies in violation of animal rights legislation, no? That says lawyer to me. He might also be soft-spoken and friendly. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 
 
bjacques
10:40 / 17.11.04
He *worked* for an organization that sued companies for violating existing animal rights laws. I think he was just a researcher or, at most, the equivalent of a paralegal.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:41 / 17.11.04
Hmmm. I heard different. Does anyone have any documentation on this one?
 
 
Francine I
14:15 / 17.11.04
So far, I've only found this Wiki discussing Volkert van der Graaf. The following quote certainly makes it sound as if he was a lawyer -

"He concentrated particularly on constesting intensive animal holdings and fur farming. He was said to be driven by his work, working more than the four days per week of his contract and was very successful, winning about three out of every four cases."
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply