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Winging it: Creating magical systems

 
 
iamus
16:57 / 27.10.04
I had a dream about six or more months ago, where I came into contact with somebody that I'm sure was not from inside my head and who I'm also sure was a lot older, wiser and far more powerful than I.
As far as I can tell, this contact was not prompted by anything I had done the previous day or two but was the result of information of my etheric pottering about without proper structure reaching this lady through other entities.

I don't wish to go too in depth with what she told me or what happened, but the jist of our conversation (about magic, but under the metaphor of brewing tea) entailed me asking her if I was meant to be making tea the way I was told was proper. She smiled, like the people who had told me to do so were well intentioned but wrong. I said something along the lines of the old ways being very powerful but being very slow. She said that was true and I had to find my own ways of brewing tea.

I take this as a sign that I have to do my own thing. I know it's foolish to discount out of hand thousands of years of received wisdom, just as it's foolish to just grab bits here and there without really understanding and learning the systems (e.g. the cultural appropriation thread). But I can't help the fact that I find most systems too specialised and, well, a bit like maths to really drum up much enthusiasm for.

I know the whole point should be finding stuff that works for you, but I can't help but feel she was telling me to build from the ground up. It isn't just laziness that makes me disinclined to explore established arcana, because I think this makes things more difficult and expands the margin for error. There's some other stuff she said and did which could put the apparent foolishness of this into perspective, but I'd like to see some feedback before I decide to put anything more out there.

I suppose all I'm trying to ask in this roundabout and autobiographical fashion is what virtue do you see in this approach? Do you think it's a wise course of action? Has anybody had failures or successes working from this "ground up" perspective?
 
 
Sekhmet
17:45 / 27.10.04
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

That's got to be the longest Welsh word I've ever seen...


As a relative magic newbie, I've been thinking about this sort of question a lot, too, Meludreen. My feeling is that if you can make up your own stuff, and it works, go for it. Caveat being that it might be a good idea to look around at a lot of the other traditions first - even if you don't "use" any of it, there are some things out there that might be nice to know about.

I think, to greater or lesser extents, most people do their own thing - your practice might be based in a tradition, but at some point you start experimenting and getting creative with it. Magic practiced by rote according to a set dogma would seem to me to be dead magic.

Someone with more experience that I will probably have some good advice.

(I like the tea metaphor. And now I want tea...)
 
 
FinderWolf
18:39 / 27.10.04
This has one of the best thread summary/abstracts I've ever seen. Nice work.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:16 / 27.10.04
(Threadrot)
Sekhmet: it was until recently the longest Welsh placename in existence. It's also something of a cheat. The village was originally called Llanfairpwllgwyngyll (St. Mary's Church in the Hollow of the White Hazel, I believe), until the late 19th century when, in order to get the place on the map, they added the description of the neighboring chapel of St. Tsilio, near the mouth of the red cave. Where the whirlpool came in I'm not sure. There are a fair few places called Llanfair, and it is distinguished by being called LlanfairPG (sounds as it's spelled).

The perfectly decently-named Llanfynydd recently changed its name to Llanhyfryddawelllehynafolybarcud - prindanfygythiadtrienusyrhafnauole (hyphen to avoid breaking the frame), as a publicity stunt to protest against wind turbines.

(/threadrot)
 
 
infinitus
00:42 / 28.10.04
If Magick "is the Art and Science of creating Change in accordance with Will", then I would suggest the scientific approach to experimenting and doing new research, namely to learn what the established scientists have already come up with in their research and develompment and then go ahead and try new ground.

Early on in my magickal training I thought "screw tradition, screw the knowledge of the ancients, screw rules and warnings" - and I ended up having some very, very scary and destructive experiences. The warnings and systems, and the courses of action (especially the constant stress on building a solid foundation and having a stable psyche) are there for reasons. Magickal experimentation can open doors that can be very hard to close. I had to work for quite some time to get away from some of the results of my rebellious experiments, and I have seen others get way more fucked up than I got by experimenting to much. By doing certain things, certain results follow. Magick is a science, and the experiments of those who have gone before us have proven that some practices radically fuck with your mind. Psychosis is a nasty thing.

So I would recommend anyone thinking of building their own system to first study the systems that have gone before, to do serious self-analysis and preferably study psychology, and then take things slowly.

In fact, many of the classical schools teach that each magician must build his/her own system at very advanced points of the journey. The Magus declares his own Aeon, and builds his own model for explaining the universe. I think there is a reason why this comes so far ahead in the training.
 
 
iamus
01:38 / 28.10.04
Yes infinitus, I totally agree with what you say there. Storming in without reading the road signs others have put up will lead to very thin ice, it's part of the reason I have taken my magical development as slowly as I have so far. I take these things very seriously and I'm always mindful of the damage that can be done to myself and others.

However, whenever I've acheived tangible results it's always been through my own systems. About three/four years ago was the last time I was heavily into practice, wherupon I experienced a run of months with near-constant syncronicities, many wishes manifesting themselves and even a minor incident or two of high magic (I do mean minor. Just the manifestation of taxis and similar things but without any preperation or workings and just using whatever symbol sytems were on hand at the time).

I was wary of getting too deep in without understanding so I withdrew, invoked the archetype of The Fool and spent the next three years in a no magic state of brain atrophy that I'm only just getting out of now.

This dream, however, was perhaps the most profound I've ever had and I think I need to listen to what she said. It was implied that there would be a support network, others to ground me but my role would be to just run with it. As I said, this was about six months ago and I'm still just dipping my toe because it's really not worth fucking about with. That's why I'm looking for the advice of those who have tried similar.
If you wish to share (and I totally understand why you probably wouldn't) any of your experiences then I'd be really eager to hear what went wrong. Same goes for anybody else.

Oh, and what went right wouldn't go amiss either

Erm... I'm going to stop talking about myself now.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:55 / 28.10.04
A thorny issue this one. I often gravitate to the belief that, at one level, there are no such things as "systems" in magic, and this is largely the invention of occult booksellers. I think that, before you can consider making up your own system, you have to work out what you mean by that statement. What exactly do you mean when you say "system"? What exactly do you mean when you say "magic"? Do you intend to invent your own pantheon of Gods? Do you intend to invent your own unique methods of practical sorcery? Do you intend to invent your own symbol system for understanding the universe? Do you intend to invent your own system of divination?

Show me the magician that doesn't do this sort of thing naturally, to one degree or another, in the course of their career, and I'll show you a rubbish magician. Magic is living, or it's dead. I work, predominantly, within a tradition. But my own versioning within that tradition has created something different from what the person who passed that tradition on to me works with. Similarly, his way of doing things is very different from the person who trained him. Even in the most rigid systems, a marriage naturally occurs between the practitioner and the trad. What you bring to the table is as important as what you take from it.

I work with a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses, but there's nothing formulaic about that. It's a living set of relationships, and is constantly developing, constantly changing and constantly being updated on a day-to-day basis, just like any other living relationship. My relationship with a Goddess is probably different from other relationships that Goddess might have with other magicians, just as my relationship with a specific living person is probably very different to other relationships that person might have.

Also, I think an argument could be made that what we call Gods and Goddesses are perhaps more like self aware anthropomorphic masks that make it easier for us to relate and interact with the building blocks of our reality and the human experience. It's easier to have a relationship with something if it has a personality and acts a bit like a human. So in terms of Gods, all of the "traditions" and "systems" are possibly just working with the same thing, the same essential powers, but calling them by different names and approaching them in terms of a different cultural personality. It's not that "all Gods are the same", cos they're not, but the powers behind them are arguably the same – simply because all magico-religious traditions are developed by humans, and humans tend to have similar concerns and share a broad commonality of experience regardless of culture.

I'm not sure that you can "make up" a God, it's perhaps more the case that a unique mask or version of a power/aspect of reality reveals itself to you and resonates with you personally. If this is the way you feel you need to go, then I'd say it's a case of letting them emerge of their own accord rather than sitting down with a pad of paper and trying to "invent", say, a personal version of the Goddess of Love. I don't think it works like that. They have to be alive, they have to come to you, speak to you, and you have to have the undeniable sense that there is something powerful, independent, self aware, and alive on the other end of your invocation. The best way to get that sort of thing working is to create circumstances conducive to one of them coming through to you, rather than defining the parameters of something and then trying to make it real.

Similarly, if you look at methods of sorcery and divination, the actual mechanics of how these things tend to operate within different cultural traditions are really very similar. You get doll magic and jar magic in Africa, China, Europe, and all over the place. For instance, sympathetic magic or theurgic magic could be thought of as analogous to painting and sculpture, what you do remains the same, but the materials you use and the style you adopt can differ greatly. There are several workable methods of sorcery: sticking pins in dolls, binding stuff up, putting things in jars, making potions and powders, variations on the written sign or sigil, candle burning, creation of amulets or charms, and so on. I'm not sure that you can really make new ones up, even Austin Spare's sigil method has its parallels with other talismanic forms of magic. But you can be creative in your choice and use of materials, mix things up, apply 21st century technology to the various forms, and so on. Which you tend to get in all systems and traditions anyway. Hoodoo is a "tradition" of sorcery, but you can practice hoodoo in such a way that you never quite do the same working twice. The magic is often stronger if you tailor it to a specific situation rather than following a recipebook down to the last letter, and particularly if you provide enough space for the magic and your creativity to take over, and allow new ways of doing things to emerge from what you are doing.

Perhaps the lesson of your dream could be read as not so much instruction to sit down and "make your own system", like you were channeling the guy who invented the boardgame 'Monopoly', but maybe the realisation that that's what magic is. It's not a series of recipes, rulebooks, and clearly defined systems of attainment, but something you engage with creatively and make your own. Everyone brews a cup of tea in their own way. Some people prefer darjeeling leaves, others go for lapsang sushong, some dig english breakfast, others like earl grey. But the process of making it is something you engage with personally, and that's what defines whether it's a nice cup of tea, or if it tastes like nonce piss.
 
 
iamus
11:23 / 28.10.04
Not really knowing what I mean about all the above terms is also something which has caused me to move slowly and warily.

"Inventing" my own deities along the lines of something I have done, but it's the mask analogy. All gods are masks. In the same way that all humans could be seen as masks.
To excuse the Sub-Bruce-Leeism, it's like water. Pour it into one glass and it takes one form, pour it into a different glass and it takes another. Put it in a tank and it can drown you, put it in a glass and you can drink it, put it in a petri dish and the most it'll do is moisten your fingertips.

In fact fuckit.

It's like tea.

Pretty much all entities that I have worked with up to this point ('cept Gek) have been "personalised" in this fashion to some degree. I've always been wary of what spirits I do this with and I've always included some sort of "trapdoor system" to try and pre-empt nastiness. Perhaps the "ground up" analogy isn't the best, you're right when you say that this is something I really have to come to understand the meanings of. You're also on the money when you say it could be established spirits getting in touch with me through more masks. Matter of fact, this is how I've been viewing it.

The contact I made in the dream was a result of working with one of these "personalised" entities. As far as was made clear, information was passed up the chain to the "Father Spirit" of this particular entity. This "Father" has a working relationship with the lady in the dream and I was brought to her attention as part of their workings. I'm inclined to think that what she was telling me to do was to be influenced by the work I've been doing, but to be something else. I've been lucky. It occurs to me that I was in pretty much direct communication with a powerful spirit that I had little true comprehension of. I was engaging with one benign aspect of it, but perhaps I wasn't being as wary as I should have.

With regards to this meeting, I'm exploring ways of redefining archetypes through my writing, giving Gods fresh masks to wear that can ease the transition between the arcane and the modern with the intention of using modern means of communication to really propogate them. I know this is not a new idea, but it's a step on the road.

I realise this thread is moving away from it's original statement. But I find myself dissatisfied both with the trappings of tradition and the Morrisonesque hyper-modernity which seems to be a fashionable antidote these days. The only way I feel truly satisfied with what I'm doing is if I'm messing about in a Horus fashion (dissatisfied with tradition yet refrencing Horus? Work that one out.) and experimenting with the flexibility of my mind through my own metaphors and symbols. Ideally I'd like to heed the warnings but take none of the advice.

Perhaps I'm just being naive.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:20 / 28.10.04
That may be naive, but naivete is no excuse for ignoring what you were told.... especially if you were told to do something.

That's not meant to sound cranky, though... Finding your way takes a while and I'm still doing just that, myself. I got told, several years ago, that I needed to learn how to take care of myself; I think I may finally be to the point of being able to take care of other folks without compromising my self right about now.
 
 
iamus
04:10 / 29.10.04
You're right izabelle, but I'm still trying to figure out what she was telling me. She was kind of cryptic and she's ignored my efforts to get in touch with her since.

If I didn't know better I'd say she was trying to get me to think...

In a rush, writing my last post, I don't think I fully expressed where I was coming from or really engaged the points being put to me. I'm going to take the time to do that because there's a lot of valid points which I need to properly address and the depth of questioning requires a similar depth of thought.

I think that, before you can consider making up your own system, you have to work out what you mean by that statement.

Magic is a term that I have trouble defining. In the most blatant sense I would view it as the means to acheiving Will through non-traditional (Modern Western) methods. But I'm equally aware what a crock of shit that statement is. When I really look at it, I find no borders between what I would define as magic and the everyday world around me. I suppose, if anything I would view magic as the awareness of how things work and by extension of that, the ability to influence these things through more subtle means than I would normally. I find it a rather elusive concept to pin down and it's one that I don't think conforms particularly well to the confines of language.
Magic is Life is Magic.

A magical system then, would be any structure through which the divine might flow. Be it esoteric or commercial or whatever. Bald monks in robes work within magical systems just as Just-for-men using stock-traders do.

As for inventing my own pantheon of Gods, well, it's like you said Gypsy.
First of all, it was something that I at least thought I was doing in the past. Bit I did it under the "mask" assumption. I think my reasoning was that if all Gods (no matter how different in effect and personality) are channeling the same source, then what's to stop me channeling that same source in ways that I define. Nowadays, it seems obvious that I wasn't being quite as original or clever as I thought, as most of what I was doing was just talking to established entities that were wearing a bit of make-up.
Some of it, I think, was a bit more original and personal and resulted in things which I feel I have a claim on and which still effect me today, and did through my extended period of no practice.
Both were equally valid though.

I don't think, on proper reflection, that it's a case of building my own model from the ground up. But I still (and it bothers me a bit) have trouble really getting into the nitty-gritty of systems that somebody has laid out before me. It's just the way my brain works. It happened with school and it'll happen with a lot more things. The Time Tree paradigm is something that really resonates with me though, for a couple of reasons.

Number one is probably my Vonnegut and Morrison leanings. Both did a lot to imprint this into me even when I didn't realise it was being imprinted.

Number two is that this seems to me as more of a playground. A structure to be explored rather than a system to be learned. (It's worth saying at this point that I have NO formal training in any established systems, so I may very well be making unfair generalisations about their structure and functions).

Also, being, well, everything and everyone, nobody gets to say what it is and what it isn't. In that way it sidesteps cultural appropriation because it belongs equally to us all. It is ours to define in the same way that I would decide to get a tattoo or a peircing because it's my body and I get to choose.

Magic is living, or it's dead

Exactly. Magic is the act of creation (There you go, perhaps I can define it). Its expression will vary from person to person in the same way that nose shape or brain structure will. It must be altered as the practitioner sees fit, or else it will go stagnant like a bottle of water that's been left on the shelf too long. That's why I believe my dream had a different message. That magic is a constantly changing and evolving thing is something I fundamentally understand. She wasn't telling me stuff that I already knew, her message was something else that it's very possible I still have a ways to get to.

I'm not sure that you can really make new ones up, even Austin Spare's sigil method has its parallels with other talismanic forms of magic.

Once again, I'm going to have to agree with you. I dunno. It's like music. You get A, B, C, D, E, F and G. But there's infinite combinations that make up all sorts of strange things that'll take you to headspaces that other combinations won't.
I don't really think that I'm going to crack a whole new way of doing things. When I think about it, probably what I'm being told to do is just to run with my intuition and common sense. Perhaps I was being told not to get hung up on how things have been done before, but to apply what I already know intelligently. I think I'm savvy enough to know when I'm stepping out of my depth, so maybe I ought to just wade in. She did allude that there will be others with more formal and analytical ways of doing things watching my back. Although I don't know whether to interpret this as metaphor or a proper, physical fact.

Some people prefer darjeeling leaves, others go for lapsang sushong, some dig english breakfast, others like earl grey.

Mine's MaoFeng Green Tea btw.

That's probably the most coherent and cohesive thinking I've done on the subject so far. Thanks for taking the time to engage me on it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:50 / 29.10.04
maybe she is thirsty,

how long before this tea arrives?

i dont think you can drink theoretical tea?

could you at least but the kettle on?

apply a little heat.

hear some boiling water.

you always lose a little water, as steam when making tea.

too hot it burns the tongue, too cold and it can become bitter.

warmth. a little honey to my tastes.
 
  
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