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Thought Experiment: Alternative History of the World, 1939 -Present

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
18:37 / 25.10.04
In reaction to this thread I found myself wondering about the most obvious 'the World would be better if he'd been assassinated' in recent history - Adolf Hitler. I've put together a quick timeline and I'd like to suggest some possibilities. Feel free to fill in the blanks or propose other likely events.

[History]

30th Jan. 1933: Hitler becomes Chancellor.

2nd May 1935: Franco-Russian Alliance signed.

7th July 1937: Second Sino-Japenese War begins.

12th Mar. 1938: Anschluss of Austria.

12th-29th Sept. 1938: Munich Crisis and susequent Agreement hand much of Czechoslovakia to Germany. Stalin's "Great Purge" comes to an end.

1st Sept. 1939: Invasion of Poland.

3rd Sept. 1939: England and France declare war on Germany.

17th Sept. 1939: Russia invades Poland.

29th Sept 1939: German/Russian treaty partitions Poland.

8th Nov. 1939: Johann Georg Elser, a carpenter, succeeds in assassinating Hitler and other top Nazi Party members.

[/History]

10th Nov. 1939: Stalin repudiates partitioning of Poland, Russian forces drive towards Czechoslovakia.

14th Nov. 1939: Italy and Hungary, citing the alliance between Rome and the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, claim sovereignty of Austria.

27th Nov. 1939: Rome-Budapest Alliance claims Slovakia, Russia gets Czech region.

1st Dec. 1939: Berlin Conference beings; peacetalks formalise borders, conclude hostilities. Minor changes to the map as it stands after twenty one months of warring.

8th May 1940: Neville Chamberlaine loses the UK General Election to Winston Churchill. Churchill distrusts Stalin's Russia and loathes Socialism: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel or envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

At the same time, the League of Nations convenes to censure Soviet Russia for aggression. The League is too weak to function properly, and the meeting collapses. Calls for a fresh, strong international organisation are ignored. Instead, the Atlantic Pact is formed by Britain, France, Italy, Greater Hungary, and the United States to make common cause, if necessary, against Soviet Russia or Imperial Japan. Germany is admitted only as an observer, despite a still-impressive economy, military machine, and scientific community.
 
 
grant
20:06 / 26.10.04
My hunch, actually, is that if Hitler were assassinated, there would probably be an active, possibly majority, Nazi Party in Germany today. It might not be quite as excessive as Hitler's party, but it would revere him as a martyr, and probably wouldn't have tried to invade Russia during the wintertime.

It depends on if the attempt was successful in killing Hitler AND all the other bigwigs or not -- I can easily picture a 70% deaf, badly scarred Himmler framing the assassination as a Jewish plot and making it stick in the public consciousness, at least enough that anti-Semitism is still considered acceptable to this day. This, in turn, means a major setback for American civil rights and, in all likelihood, no modern state of Israel... unless it's operated more like a Bantustan and less like a sovereign nation. (Then again, I'm not sure that wasn't how it started out anyway, in our timeline.)

America would still enter the war, but it seems likelier that a negotiated settlement could be reached, rather than a total defeat and occupation. So Britain would nominally be free, and instead of a partitioned Germany, we'd have a partitioned France.

Hmm. And if Hitler isn't around to screw Stalin (the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is upheld rather than broken), then there's no Eastern Bloc -- more like a Eurasian Bloc.

And, now that I think of it, a Soviet regime fueled by strategic injections of goods/services from the capitalist powerhouse of a modern Nazi Germany might not be quite so impoverished. On the other hand, I imagine the brain drain (Einstein, Von Braun, etc) would be more exaggerated, so huzzah for Yankee research & development.

We still have the bomb, we still have the rockets. The Space Race would probably be tighter, though.

And I really wonder what'd happen to China -- probably not much different, if Japan still gets bombed. The Caribbean would be very different (picture Curacao & St. Maartens as supply bases for Cuba), and I can see some real ugly proxy wars in Africa. Instead of Korea, picture Angola and Namibia (German Southwest Africa). Or rather, picture wars there coming first. Stretching of resources. Bigger role for CIA spooks.

South Africa would be very different -- no communist bugbears, for one thing. I have a strong feeling some strange new ideologies would take root, too.

Hmm. Although now that I think of it, I don't think Soviet communism and National Socialism could really live together for all that long, ideologically. So picture SS (possibly from occupied France) fighting the Viet Cong along with the Americans and Australians.
 
 
sleazenation
21:04 / 26.10.04
Would there have sill been the rockets? - without the impetus towards vengence weapons the technichal expertese assembled by the nazi's would not have come into existence to then be lapped up by the US and Soviets- And without the chaos of the immediate post war period I'm not even sure a comparable cold war would have occured.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:59 / 27.10.04
grant - under this timeline, Hitler and his senior cohorts were all nailed at the same time, leaving the Nazi party in turmoil for long enough for WWII to stall - so there's no war for the U.S. to enter, and Germany retains her scientists. The natural antagonism of the Imperialist/Capitalist powers and the new Soviet Russia means that Europe is (again) split, leading to another war, which ends in a limited nuclear engagement on mainland Europe.

The Nazi camp programme didn't have time to reach the scale we know today, so anti-Semitism remains respectable in Europe and America for much longer.

Or you could speculate that Germany goes Left after the war ends...
 
 
sleazenation
08:19 / 27.10.04
The British empire is in much better shape retaining much of her pre-1939 territories...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:33 / 27.10.04
This thread upsets me in the same way that Martin Amis' Time's Arrow upsets me.
 
 
grant
19:10 / 28.10.04
1. I'm thinking of moving for all the meta-commentary to be deleted, because I'm still interested in the "what-if" game, wherever it is on the site.

2. Actually, if you really want to play, maybe this site provides a better model. I haven't investigated yet, but I bet something close to this timeline exists on there. Actually, there are five timelines headed "Hitler Assassinated," but none choose this plot as a starting point. (I'm more curious about the "Dio stays with Black Sabbath" one, actually.)

3. sleazenation: Would there have still been the rockets? ...And without the chaos of the immediate post war period I'm not even sure a comparable cold war would have occured... The British empire is in much better shape retaining much of her pre-1939 territories...

I have a feeling a Cold War would be inevitable, given the feelings about Communism already present in America in the 1930s.

I also suspect that the rockets could have been used by whatever cadre survives the bombing. Von Braun isn't assassinated in this timeline. Heck, I don't even know if Himmler was there -- and he or a dozen other folks would be more than capable of taking the helm.

Bear in mind that in 1939, Hitler was still a success. The people believed in him. He was elected to office. He was widely beloved (and hated, also, but still).

Things in Africa might be very different indeed, although I'm not sure how much WWII affected the post-colonial handovers of the 50s & 60s.

Second Spin: grant - under this timeline, Hitler and his senior cohorts were all nailed at the same time, leaving the Nazi party in turmoil for long enough for WWII to stall - so there's no war for the U.S. to enter, and Germany retains her scientists.

Hmm. Germany might well retain her scientists (other than Einstein and I *think* Schrodinger, who are already stateside by the assassination).

But it wasn't Germany who brought the US into the war, it was Japan, who were aggressively pursuing their own colonial agenda across the South Pacific. I don't think Pearl Harbor had squat to do with Germany, although I could be being nearsighted on that.

In fact, German members of the Axis didn't always see eye to eye with the Japanese, so with Hitler out of the question, the Japanese may have gotten even bolder. Hard to say.


Or you could speculate that Germany goes Left after the war ends...


Actually, if I'm thinking correctly, the Green Party started as a German Left invention, didn't it? I wonder if it would have evolved at all if there wasn't a Marshall Plan/occupation/partition.

I definitely think that with Hitler as a martyr, Nazi ideology would be a lot stronger. Similar groups in the US (where eugenics came from) and South Africa (AWB!) would probably have a lot more grassroots appeal.

And I wonder how labor unions might take on the ideas of national socialism and adapt them -- collectivity, shared resources, the strength of team play.

That's a *big* step back for civil rights right there, which means the 1960s would be even bloodier stateside.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:22 / 13.11.04
grant - I'm not sure about the Green Party - it has ties to the Right, as well. Possibly it plays either way.
 
 
grant
16:57 / 15.11.04
If no substantial WWII European Theater, then would Eisenhower be elected president?

He created ANWAR and the interstate highway system....
 
 
sleazenation
21:39 / 15.11.04
And without Eisenhower there would have been no ARPA... and probably as a consequence the development of the Internet would have been seriously retarded.
 
 
grant
16:18 / 16.11.04
And thus no Barbelith!

I feel like we've just won a game or something.
 
 
sleazenation
22:06 / 17.11.04
Well along similar lines I'd return to rocketry and again. While Von Brown would be alive and well he would not have worked on the vengence weapons which advanced the science of rocketry in great leaps and bounds. There was no real interest and ploughing vast resources into rocket research before 1939 and without the pressure of war in Germany I'm not sure they'd have been developed for a decade or two...

Without the immense ammount of R&D work carried out by the Nazis I sincerely doubt we'd have ICBMs developed by the mid-50s... again, I'm sure rocketry would have developed, but not with the speed it did.
 
 
grant
18:13 / 18.11.04
Outside this thread, Second Spin and I have concluded that China as we know it today would no longer exist... as long as the lack of a European theater means that the US doesn't wind up dropping an A-bomb on Japan.

(short version: as long as Japan occupied Manchuria, the Kuomintang and the Communists stopped fighting each other to work against Japan -- who abruptly pulled out after getting bombed, leaving the Communists and KMT to duke it out. No bombing = no pull-out = no civil war, or more likely an ongoing three-way KMT/Communist/Manchuko conflict = no Chairman Mao.) I think there would still be a Bruce Lee, but he wouldn't be the same Bruce Lee.

So there's some unintended consequences.
 
  
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