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Judgement call

04:15 / 25.10.04

Hi guys, I need your barbelove advice.

Background: There's a girl I've had my eye on for the last few weeks or so (let's call her Lea). I met her through a ladyfriend who went to college with her, they're good buds. Now, at a party a few weeks further back we hit it off and spent a lot of the night chatting, taking the piss and jamming, so we're very friendly with each other at the least.

There's a Halloween all-nighter coming up at the local discotheque which nearly everyone in my primary social circle is going to, it's a big event this and Lea really wants to go. Snag, her university grant hasn't come in yet leaving her without enough money to go. Snaggleplus, she's not in a position to borrow money off her folks [due to prev. owed debts] and her friends are 'cash poor'.

I'm in the lucky position of having a comfortable amount saved up that I can loan a sizeable night-out amount to her. I ask: do I make a kind gesture and offer to loan her the money til her grant clears? If I do, does this turn it into an uncomfortable 'oh, you owe me' pseudo-prositution thing situation during the night out? I can honestly say I wouldn't feel this way at all about/to her but I can definitely see how she might this impression.

However, yes, I am doing this for personal gain. 1. I get to see her during the evening and hopefully have a night of booze and smiles with her, 2. I am consciously doing it to be a good guy and score points.

Do I offer? If I do, how to put it across without seeming like a scheming bastard?

04:45 / 25.10.04

I think it'll only turn into an uncomfortable ' oh you owe me ' pseudo-prostitution thing if you want it to, Triplets.

It'll be a loan after all, not a cash transaction.

As for how to offer, just ask her, explaining you'll spot her the money, and as far as the pseudo-prostitution thing goes, don't mention it, and you should be fine.

Good luck !

04:52 / 25.10.04

Yeah, I over-thought/over-wrought that part too much. Thanks for the reassurance!

We're The Great Old Ones Now

05:01 / 25.10.04

I hesitate to say it, but you could just ask her out, and then it could be a date, in which case you could pay for her and she could return the favour on one of your later dates when she's cash rich and you've screwed up your accounting for the month. So much less disturbing than loaning money to someone you want to pounce on, and has the added benefit that if she says 'no', you can spend the evening looking for other foolish mortals to prey on.

Lilly Nowhere Late

05:40 / 25.10.04

I tend to agree with CM; why can't you just do the old fashioned date situation where you treat her? Of course, imho, old fashioned dating is a bit like prostitution, but you could employee a bit of dashing romance and she could return the favour at a later date(date).

ONLY NICE THINGS

06:59 / 25.10.04

Now, at a party a few weeks further back we hit it off and spent a lot of the night chatting, taking the piss and jamming, so we're very friendly with each other at the least.

Once again, I wouldn't normally ask, but this is Barbelith... have you spoken since? If not, asking her out might actually be a lot less weird than offering to lend her money.

Of coruse, a lot depends on how much a fun night out for a young person costs these days...

11:14 / 25.10.04

'taking the piss and jamming'

aren't those like bases six and eight? mate, after having gone that far you shouldn't let something like booze-money get between you. next time you're out you could go on to sclenjing, buntum, or even riding each others' guff-mabbers.

11:16 / 25.10.04

I wonder why you're phrasing it as a loan. Do you actually need to paid back? Because that seems sort of... gauche, I don't know. As a lady, I wouldn't take it. For one thing, it entails a commitment to talking to you in the future about paying you back, as well as setting up an uneven power balance right off the bat, and as a first date arrangement that's a put off. And secondly, no offense or anything, but it's just kind of tacky. Offering to treat her is a better route by far.

Is it having something to wear that's the expensive problem? Because most girls can scrounge up a dress, either by borrowing or creative thrift-store shopping. You might want to quiz your mutual friend about what the girl's exact situation is. If she's absolutely destitute and has no nice clothes, it could be nice to ask her out somewhere else.

11:20 / 25.10.04

Say, "you can pay for the next Hallowe'en all-nighter I can't afford to go to".

*rereads thread*

This only works if, as Haus notes, you have actually spoken to this woman since the party a few weeks back. If not, any out-of-the-blue offer of money, however it's framed, is going to seem a little creepy - like you're using financial means to bypass a more equitable social relationship and jump straight into White Knight/You Owe Me territory...

11:50 / 25.10.04

I dunno, ibis, for reasons of pride (or self-delusion) I'd rather the offer was phrased as a loan rather than a treat or gift - that's from someone I don't know especially well. If it was offered as a treat, I'd also immediately start wondering what the ulterior motive was (in a much more negative sense than 'hmm, so-and-so is offering to lend me the cash to go to the halloween bash - I wonder if he's interested?', which is all right really). It's OK not to set any time for the repayment though, and just let it lapse according to how things turn out for you.

I dunno - it's quite rare for young people over here to 'date' rather than go out somewhere and hope for a semi-drunken snog at the end of the night, but that's just a cultural difference, I think.

I am an old fogey.

12:03 / 25.10.04

Why not use the money to pay for an escort for the evening? No crossed signals there, everyone knows where they stand.

You might get a shag, as well.

12:07 / 25.10.04

My vote is for making it a date. Hell, you can even call it a 'date' if you want, which gives you the wonderful oppurtunity to joke with each other about how it's not a real date, all the while glancing back and forth to see how the other responds. Gives it the chance to be light while still clearly showing interest. The loan, seems to me, takes it out of the light zone and into realms of 'appropiate behavior.'

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:56 / 25.10.04

Hmm. Sax's point is not an entirely bad one.

Triplets, I may be extrapolating, but I assume that the fact that you are shooting for "booze and smiles" on this evening means either that she has not given any suggestion of wanting to get involved with you (a), or that she has a boyfriend (b). This may be mistaken.

However however. Let's say you get boozed-up, she gets boozed-up, she gets friendly with another guy (or her boyfriend). Are you sure that drunken triplets will not think "Gah! I paid for her to be here, and now she is sexing up with another man!"? Are you further sure that, no matter how drunk you are, you will not feel an urge to share that paradox?

It may be wiser to make your play for her, without perceived obligation and without financial oddness, on another night.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:03 / 25.10.04

Hell, you can even call it a 'date' if you want, which gives you the wonderful oppurtunity to joke with each other about how it's not a real date, all the while glancing back and forth to see how the other responds.

Which is fine, until she has too much cider and cops off with somebody else, on the grounds that it is, after all, not a real date, and if she had known there was some kind of condition attached she would not have acccepted the invitation.

There's little so tragic as a grown man singing "Avalon" through a mouthful of broken teeth...

13:09 / 25.10.04

for reasons of pride (or self-delusion) I'd rather the offer was phrased as a loan rather than a treat or gift

Well, I tend to bristle at loan offers, also because of pride. We don't take no charity in this house! I see what you're saying though - it would be nice if he pays as they go and remarks, "oh you can pay me back... someday." I was thinking more than he'd intended to say, "[Girl,] I'd like to hand you this check for $80 so that you can come to the Halloween bash. You can pay me back when that grant comes through." Which is thoroughly icky and presumptuous.

For what it's worth, which may not be much at all, I'm pretty sure it's a matter of general dating etiquette that if you invite someone to a costly event/location, you offer to pay. Whether they take it or not is their prerogative.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:16 / 25.10.04

"[Girl,] I'd like to hand you this check for $80 so that you can come to the Halloween bash. You can pay me back when that grant comes through."

Hmmm. But if a friend of yours said "Hey, do you want me to spot you a twenty until payday so you can go out drinking", that would not be bridlesome, right? It would just be a friendly action. So, if it's a loan, it isn't a date. If it's a date, it probably isn't a loan. If it's a date, but Triplets doesn't tell her it's a date, it's a potential deathtrap. If it's a loan, and Triplets is wrong about the "very friendly with each other at least", it may be unexpected and unwelcome.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:19 / 25.10.04

Incidentally, I don't want to, but I have to - Ibis, if being given money without the expectation of having to pay it back, as the gift of a wealthier person is not charity, what exactly is? I am bewildered again.

Tryphena Absent

13:33 / 25.10.04

I'd also immediately start wondering what the ulterior motive was

But if it's a date than you already know what the ulterior motive is.

I'm worried about how much money you think this woman is going to spend. Is the local discotheque so very expensive or can she put it away like a sailor on leave?

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

13:33 / 25.10.04

Tell her you like her and ask her out, for god's sake.

13:44 / 25.10.04

Well, as I say, if it's really a case of two people who know each other as friends wanting to attend the same social event, and one of those people being temporarily stymied by the non-appearance of a grant, then what's wrong with saying, "you can always owe me a Hallowe'en night out sometime" (ie. this time next year - far enough away that both parties have the option of letting it slide if it's not that big a deal)?

If, on the other hand, Triplet's previous contact with this lady is limited to a single instance of friendly "taking the piss and jamming" a few weeks previously, proposing cash-for-smiles would seem to make suddenly explicit a shift in the power dynamic - for one night, at least - in a direction which may subsequently taint any embryonic relationship (if such it is).

Triplet, I'm not convinced you're being entirely honest in your explanation here - or rather, I suspect your honesty's stopping just short of directly acknowledging your further motivations. You say you've had your eye on this woman for a few weeks... to what purpose? As a friend to whom one lends and from whom one occasionally borrows? As a 'date' for whose company one might pay, within an established framework of negotiated expectation? You want to "be a good guy and score points"... but to what eventual end? Restoring karmic imbalance alone? There's no such thing as a free lunch, y'know.

I'm afraid that, when I'm reading "a night of booze and smiles" up there, I'm mentally adding, "maybe more...". So, I suspect, are you.

13:53 / 25.10.04

Well Haus, I was kind of just being silly about the charity thing. In fact, pride is kind of silly to begin with. But I guess, a loan from someone I'm not good friends with sets up a power dynamic in which they have a hold on me - I'm indebted to him. But if that person just out-and-out pays, I graciously accept the gift at face value. In a non-intimate situation like a first date (even a first friend-"date"), I don't see any obligation attached to that. Of course, if you continue to see the person it's a matter of courtesy of returning the favor or else you're just mooching.

But if a friend of yours said "Hey, do you want me to spot you a twenty until payday so you can go out drinking", that would not be bridlesome, right? It would just be a friendly action.

Exactly, but that's because it's an unstated certainty that you're going to go out again and any time your friend's hard up you do the same for him. You don't keep track, but you know it balances out over the long course of your friendship.

In Triplets' case here, there's no established friendship or guarantee (or even strong likelihood) they're going to go out together again in the future. So offering up a loan in effect ties her to a second date, or at least a second meeting - automatic strings attached. Plus the thing about "when the grant goes through" I think is unseemly and, again, presumtuous meddling in her personal finances. (What if the grant money's already spoken for by other loans and bills? Is he then going to bind her to that loan agreement? Not a way to woo a woman, if you ask me.)

But where's Triplets in all this?

13:59 / 25.10.04

Down the cash machine.

14:00 / 25.10.04

But where's Triplets in all this?

This is the nub of the thing, really. Is it a vague loan between friends, is it a 'date', is it cash-for-company, is it a vague loan between friends where one party secretly views it as a potential 'date' and hopes to manipulate it in this direction through judicious application of cash-for-company?

Oooover to you, Triplets.