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Ayn Rand: WTF?

 
  

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Phex: Dorset Doom
12:41 / 23.10.04
First, a quick summary of my knowledge of Ayn Rand:
1) Ayn (pronounced Anne) is a guy.
2) In the episode of South Park entitled 'Chicken Lover', reading Rand's 'Atlas Unbound' caused officer Barbrady to renounce literacy.
3) Ayn Rand seems to cause revulsion just about everywhere he(she?) is mentioned, including multiple instances on this board.

And yet, I've have almost no idea who Ayn Rand is or what issues he raises.
So, my question is, what's the deal with Ayn Rand? What are his principle works, his philosophy ('Objectivism' seems to be mentioned a lot, but I'm yet to find a definition) his supporters, his detractors? Should I care* what he has to say? If not, why not?

*By 'care' I mean 'is a reading of Ayn Rand necessary to understanding current affairs etc.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:11 / 23.10.04
1) Ayn Rand does not have any Y chromosomes. She is a lady.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:33 / 23.10.04
2) It's "Atlas Shrugged".

Also: this, this, this, and this.

On the other hand, this, containing the rather telling observation that the author, like many people, dug Ayn Rand when he was a teenager but has come to find her thinking irrelevant and disagreeable as he has matured.

Then there's this charming essay by the founder of the Ayn Rand Society, "Why Christmas Should Be More Commercial." Kinda speaks for itself.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:00 / 23.10.04
Rand wrote novels and some non-fiction which espoused an enlightened but total selfishness. She despised notions of welfare and industrial subsidies, and followed a long line of U.S. intellectuals such as Emerson ("I tell thee, thou foolish philanthropist, that I grudge the dollar, the dime, the cent I give to such men as do not belong to me and to whom I do not belong. There is a class of persons to whom by all spiritual affinity I am bought and sold; for them I will go to prison if need be; but your miscellaneous popular charities; the education at college of fools; the building of meeting-houses to the vain end to which many now stand; alms to sots, and the thousand-fold Relief Societies;-- though I confess with shame I sometimes succumb and give the dollar, it is a wicked dollar, which by and by I shall have the manhood to withhold.") in arguing against them.

Rand is the poster demon of the U.S. left, for fairly obvious reasons, but it pays to remember her history. She was born in Russia in 1905 and was a supporter of the democratic February Revolution of 1917, but not of the October Revolution which arguably was the anti-democratic action of a cadre of Leninist revolutionaries. The subversion of Russian education and society by the Bolshevik party - and the removal of power from the Soviet system, which was profoundly democratic, and its transfer to the Party system, which was totalitarian - persuaded her that Socialism (or rather Leninism-Stalinism, though the distinction at the time was unclear) was a monster which would leech creativity and work from the nation and from the individual.

The knee-jerk reaction against Rand is a waste of energy. Her books are decent enough as trashy novels, and her politics are a product of the time. What she really objected to was the dehumanising effect of bureaucracy and the anti-democratic force of the cadre/old-boy network which sometimes accompanies and undermines liberal reform (vide Blair, Anthony). If she were writing now, you could reasonably expect her to be something like a Green/Right/Anti-Globalisation activist.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:23 / 23.10.04
I don't really understand how being opposed to Rand's views is any more a waste of energy than being her ceaseless apologist... Anyway, here's a previous thread on the subject (don't know if that's the link Jack Fear meant to include above, but it's worth reading).
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
16:11 / 23.10.04
Damn, she is lady (and for the record I definitely would not)
Thanks to everyone, there's a lot of food for thought here (I haven't had the chance to read through the other Barb' posting on the topic, but I will.)
The Prescott essay is particularly good for it's honesty at exposing the cult-like mentality I've come to notice in Rand's followers. She's less The Fucking Antichrist that most leftists would make her out to be, more The Fucking Anti-Hubbard.
Well, there's another potential meta-narrative gone, gone like tears in the rain, time to die...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:16 / 23.10.04
and it's more like "ine"...not Anne.

er...I was pretty into Ayn Rand when I was in high school. I was scrawny awkward teenager and The Fountainhead gave me a great sense of self worth and confidence. It really made me feel better about myself, and I think became a big part of who I am.

But, as I got older, the strict ego-centric philosophy of hers started to seem unrealistic, and just kind of a drag.

Great novels, though. I'll stand by Fountainhead as a truly amazing novel, and astounding portrait of a creative life. Atlas is certainly overlong, but it's a pretty good mystery novel, I'd say. Quite epic, and I like that kind of thing.

We the Living is a good story of revolution era Russia. Anthem is a nice little fable/fairytale.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:18 / 23.10.04
oh, and Alan Greenspan (Federal Reserve Chairman) was an old disciple of Rands...
 
 
Sir Real
11:50 / 25.10.04
Her novels are pretty entertaining for the most part. The execptions are the three page monlogues where she inserts her 'philosophy' These occur about every 50 pages and after you read the first paragraph you can skip the rest and get on to the next scandulous incident.

To give her credit, she's where I first learned the difference between art and propaganda disguised as art.
 
 
MrKismet
13:50 / 26.10.04
"Ayn" is pronounced EYE-un.
 
 
_Boboss
15:40 / 26.10.04
it's pronounced 'ane' as in 'thinking through your anus'
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:38 / 26.10.04
that's what i was trying to describe...couldn't figure out how to write that out phonetically...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
04:51 / 28.10.04
I don't really understand how being opposed to Rand's views is any more a waste of energy than being her ceaseless apologist..

You think correcting a nigglging error which has its roots in ignorance is as wasteful as being ignorant?

How revealing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:20 / 28.10.04
Well, Mink, "niggling error" and "ignorance" are a matter of opinion here, yes?
 
 
HCE
14:18 / 28.10.04
I'll stand by Fountainhead as a truly amazing novel, and astounding portrait of a creative life.

No, it's not. It's just not. It's noxious hackwork, and I never cease to be astonished that she is put forth as a viable novelist when claims that she's a philosopher fall flat. It always sounded to me like people trying to claim that while there's no great Mexican food in New York, there's this one place that makes pretty decent enchiladas...

No.

"He could not name the thing he wanted of life. He felt it here, in this wild loneliness. But he did not face nature with the joy of a healthy animal--as a proper and final setting; he faced it with the joy a of healthy man--as a challenge; as tools, means and material. So he felt anger that he should find exultation only in the wilderness, that this great sense of hope had to be lost when he would return to men and men's work. he though that this was not right; that man's work should be a higher step, and improvement on nature, not a degradation. He did not want to despise men; he wanted to love and admire them. But he dreaded the sign of the first house, poolroom and movie poster he would encounter on his way. "

I just want to stab my eyes, reading this treacle.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:39 / 28.10.04
She can be pretty awful. I think there's something in the idea that she portrays the creative heart.

I'm not making a case for her as a genius, I just don't think she's nearly as scary and awful as she's supposed to be. She strikes me as a woman who got an idea fixed in her head - that Socialism was responsible for the evils she saw in her own country, rather than Totalitarianism and a ghastly panopticon-like dehumanisation of the public and private spheres - and acted on that belief. Does she sound shouty and vituperative? Yes. Is she wrong about Socialism? Yes. Is she wrong about later Leninism and (later) Stalinism? Not really, no.

Rand was as blind about the failings of Capitalism as the various members of the Frankfurt School were about those of Soviet Russia. She was in error - but no more monstrous than they for seeking a way through the world which would avoid the horrors she loathed.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
00:12 / 29.10.04
i like the fountainhead. pooh on you.
 
 
HCE
16:50 / 29.10.04
Ha, fair enough, Mr. Strange.

But Second Spin, what's so remarkable about the observation that Stalin was bad? The very best things that anybody can say about her: that she noticed totalitarianism (whose ill effects she ascribed to socialism) is bad, and that she isn't as scary as she's supposed to be. It doesn't justify calling her a philosopher.

I don't bristle at the mention of her name because she's an evil mastermind, I bristle because a crappy writer is put forth by her fans as a thinker, or philosopher. She's like L. Ron Hubbard, but worse, because she's taken more seriously, and when you can get people to back down on the notion of her as a philosopher, they inevitably come back with the notion of her as a literary figure of note, which she is not.

I'd like to hear from fans of her writing -- could you please cite some of your favorite passages that you think show some insight into creativity, or are simply well-written?
 
 
alas
00:55 / 30.10.04
alas, alas is not a fan. I have, however, read the writings of students who loved her, dated men who loved her, and, ALAS!, it did not make them better thinkers, writers. Quite the opposite, in fact. She's like a super-simplified Nietzsche: wealthy=strong=good; poor=weak=bad. People who like her tend to just stay kind of, well, 15, mentally. Or thereabouts.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:05 / 30.10.04
so this is a condemnation of writing skill?

ugh, look, I admire a good writer as much as the next person, but sometimes novels don't have to be written well to tell a good yarn, ya know? (See Stephen King). I'm a story first, writing second kind of reader, and I'll forgive some amateur writing is the story is interesting to me. The story of Roark is interesting to me, and probably to a lot of creative people that would like to cling to their ideals while trying to be successful, even though the writing of the story is not as creative or elegant.

I'm pretty sure I've progressed beyond 15, as well, thank you very much.

Although I haven't read her novels in a good 10 years, probably. But my memory of that story, and the effect it had on my growing mind was positive.
 
 
HCE
15:54 / 02.11.04
This is a condemnation of everything. Lack of insight, lack of intellectual or philosophical depth, lack of writing ability. Didn't Vonnegut say the same dumb, trite things better, faster, and with a sense of humor? Why not just read Nietzsche? I mean, have you seen Dirty Dancing? The bad guy tosses a copy of the Fountainhead on the table after he gets busted for getting Baby's sister pregnant. You see! You see what this does to people!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:33 / 03.11.04
MUAHAHAHA!! I totally have never caught that in Dirty Dancing....that's golden.

Vonnegut...jeez, I never made that parallel...and i've read all of his work...I'll have to consider this...
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
19:30 / 03.11.04
steve Ditko, co-creator of Spiderman and my homeboy Dr. Strange, was a huge proponent of Rand's philosophy- as you can see here.

Also, how much was RAW's Atlanta Hope, author of "Telemachus Sneezed", a riff on Rand?
 
 
HCE
23:54 / 03.11.04
I've often said that one nice thing I can say about Ayn Rand is that if it weren't for her, I wouldn't know who Telemachus was.
 
 
rising and revolving
00:02 / 04.11.04
"but sometimes novels don't have to be written well to tell a good yarn, ya know? (See Stephen King)."

I don't wamt to rot the thread here, but that's just a stupid freaking statement you know. King is actually, in pretty much every technical aspect, one of the great writers of today.

Now you can argue all you like about the soul, the art, the story - but when it comes to the thrice damnned CRAFT of writing, he's one of the greats of the 20th Century. Serious.
 
 
_Boboss
10:01 / 04.11.04
penny, not lisa. he hasn't been busted yet, it's still early, and he's probably hoping to have a go on baby too.
 
 
HCE
14:14 / 04.11.04
Right, sorry. The dancer's the 'bad' and knockuppable one, the sister's the 'good' one, the doctor's daughter. Class Struggle 101.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
19:38 / 04.11.04
that was polite, janus. thanks.

obviously, I have NO idea what I'm talking about.
 
 
Benny the Ball
13:47 / 05.11.04
I was just about to ask about Telemichus (spelling?) Sneezed and the link with Atlas...

Is it worth reading, even if bad, just to see how far RAW was taking the piss?

Dwight, did you never watch Ulysses 31? That's how I learnt who Telemichus was!
 
 
HCE
15:17 / 05.11.04
Is Ulysses 13 a television program? No, I haven't seen it. Atlas Shrugged is generally held to be a lesser work than The Fountainhead, so it's probably not worth it to read the whole thing.
 
 
+#'s, - names
16:38 / 05.11.04
a) Nobody puts Baby in the corner!

b) I once saw this bizarre self published comic by Steve Ditko where he completelly ranted about Ayn Rand and how great she is for about 100 pages. I didn't pick it up, and it scared me away from her works. But I really really enjoyed the "THE MEGALOMANIACAL SPIDER-MAN " by Bagge.
 
 
MJ-12
19:47 / 05.11.04
Anthem is a nice little fable/fairytale.

it was even better the first time, when it was written by Zamyatin.
 
 
The Falcon
13:24 / 11.11.04
The Fountainhead is a readable bonkbuster (possibly the only one I ever read, that said) with some remarkably bad philosophy.

And a kind of rape, that the woman pretty much enjoys.

Ooops.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:11 / 12.11.04
So she's kind of like Louise Bagshawe, then?
 
 
Simplist
03:42 / 15.11.04
Hey, I briefly considered Atlas Shrugged to be the best book I'd ever read. I immediately tracked down and devoured all Rand's available nonfiction too (though for some reason I couldn't get into any of the other novels). Changed my life, it did. Admittedly, I was 12 at the time, and my subsequent Objectivist phase was fairly short-lived.

Still, being formerly Rand-besotted seriously enhanced my enjoyment of Illuminatus! several years later--I was literally howling with laughter at Wilson's endless cracks on the Objectivist canon and associated personalities (though don't ask me to list them now--too many years since I've read either Rand or Wilson at this point).
 
  

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