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RT: Therapy alternatives

 
 
Perfect Tommy
09:42 / 27.10.01
Over the past few months, I have gradually come to the conclusion that there is quite likely something chemically wrong with me. I've never worried about the on-and-off depression and sleep irregularity I've had for most of my life; but now, I have let all things financial go ignored to the point that the IRS is sending me letters, my rent is three weeks overdue, I am eating the last of the peanut butter, and yet I have only made the most cursory attempts to get out of the stupid house and really get down to job-hunting. I should be in a complete ass-busting panic, but instead I'm generally apathetic and unmotivated, dealing with stress like a three-year-old by playing internet chess, and should count myself lucky that I haven't been thrown out of my apartment yet.

I am not really interested in going to a therapist. I went to one for about a year when I was 17, at my mother's insistence that I probably wasn't really over my dad passing away when I was 13. The main thing I remember was that on my last session, the therapist said a bunch of things that I was probably supposed to be paying attention to -- I couldn't remember what he said after I left the office, because I had completely spaced out during it. Anyway, I didn't feel particularly helped.

And, of course, I can't afford one.

So, I'm not quite sure what happens next. What do malfunctioning people who don't go to therapists (because of finances, or poor experiences, or from the belief that psychiatrists are evil mentalist lizards) do?

I'm also interested in magician perspectives on self-repair; I think this topic is different from the Psychology of Magic thread since I'm interested in purposeful changing of one's psychology through magic, rather than incidental psychological changes coming about after magic practices for other reasons.

Thanks in advance; I hope this isn't overly confessional for the Head Shop audience.

(This is a roaming thread intended to flit between the Head Shop and Magick forums weekly, or moving after three days without posts.)

[ 27-10-2001: Message edited by: doubting thomas ]
 
 
SMS
09:42 / 27.10.01
One of the major things that you could do is make sure you are a participating part of a larger social organism. This is admittedly difficult when you spend a lot of time in the house, since people don't simply knock and ask if Tommy can come out to play. But it's important anyway. Old friends usually like to hear from you, as well. My advise on telling people your problems is, basically, not to do so the first time you have lunch with them, and to keep conversation fairly light, even when discussing something serious.

Also, help your friends move, make a point of remembering birthdays, anniversaries and so forth. The purpose of this is to affect a change in your own mind, so give of yourself until you begin to care greatly for your friends. But not to the point where you may resent them. You're giving for your own sake, first.

I really do think this will help you (anyone) become a bit more healthy.

Don't trust doctors. If you feel the need to see one about mental health, always, always research the medicine they propose before taking it.
 
 
Lionheart
09:37 / 30.10.01
uh....
 
 
Ganesh
09:41 / 30.10.01
Sorry, DT, can't really advise on US psychiatry; it's something of a breed apart. You could try St John's Wort - essentially works in the same way as other antidepressants but is 'gentler' and can (I think) be bought over-the-counter, even in the States.
 
 
Anaconda Jones
23:58 / 31.10.01
I have manic depresseion and have been trying a completely alternative therapy - neurofeedback. If you do any research on it you will find both material that supports and bags on it. An interesting book which talks about this therapy is "Change your Brain, Change your Life" by David Amen.

A year ago I was really close to a nervous breakdown and had been on antidepressants for years (since 25 and I am 38). I had a couple of episodes like the one you describe during that year.

I have had really bad luck with psychiatrists. The experiences I had were basically centered around take a pill and yak at them for an hour a week while they looked at their watches and made notes. After being told I needed to go on Lithium I was at the end of my rope. I luckily found someone who did this therapy and it has worked really well.

I don't know if it is placebo effect or what, and frankly I don't care. I no longer have to take pills every day, and I am MUCH more even. I still get down (and up) , but more normal. It's manageable.

The therapy isn't cheap, and you do need to find a good, honest practioner. I think some insurance plans cover alternative therapies. I paid for it myself and it was well worth scraping to save for it.

[ 01-11-2001: Message edited by: Anaconda Jones ]
 
 
Ganesh
11:53 / 01.11.01
<sigh>

Does anyone here have any good experiences with psychiatrists? Any suggestions on how our job might be better performed, given the available resources?
 
 
Sax
12:04 / 01.11.01
I had a fantastic experience with a psychiatrist. Last year at the Glastonbury Festival I had to take my friend to the medical tent because he had taken far too many drugs and was on his hands and knees puking, his tongue lolling and his eyes rolling.

I half carried him to the medical tent where we were referred to one of the psychiatrists, a very attracted German in her mid-twenties.

To my eternal gratitude and delight she flashed a torch in my mate's eyes, looked at him carefully, and said in the most wonderful Teutonic accent: "Ze problem is very simple. You have fried your brains."

Cheered me up, anyway. Maybe you should start talking in a German accent, 'Nesh. It instils no end of confidence.

And kids: don't do drugs.
 
 
Ganesh
12:18 / 01.11.01
I can do a good Austrian one. They teach us that (along with goatee-grooming and polo-neck wearing) at Psychiatrist School.

And kids: if you do do drugs, try not to be enormously surprised by subsequent alterations in mood; and don't be too critical of those whose job it is to put things back together again afterwards.
 
 
Sax
12:23 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
And kids: if you do do drugs, try not to be enormously surprised by subsequent alterations in mood; and don't be too critical of those whose job it is to put things back together again afterwards.


I wasn't being critical. I obviously left out all the stuff about her sitting my mate down in a quiet tent and talking to him and generally bringing him back from the edge of screaming-heebie-jeebiedom. Because it wasn't as funny as the initial diagnosis. But I wasn't being critical.
 
 
Wombat
12:33 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
<sigh>

Does anyone here have any good experiences with psychiatrists? Any suggestions on how our job might be better performed, given the available resources?


On the whole you guys do a damned good job. Doubt I could hack it without becoming a patient. You should get better resources and a huge pay rise.

Apart from the bastard who
a) released my GF the day after she tried to top herself in the loos of the psych ward.
b) reduced her meds without telling her.

As for suggestions. Reduce the bribes for smuggling non-NHS food into wards. (a portion of cheesy chips and a can of coke is just too much...should be either one or the other)

Also doctors should be banned from wearing all black, with purple doc martins. Scares the shit out of visitors, never mind patients.
 
 
Ganesh
13:20 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Sax on a stick:
I wasn't being critical.


I wasn't meaning you, really, Sax, or your friend, specifically. I was having a briefly spite-filled moment for those individuals who get deeply into drug culture to an extent they can't handle, so a) their serotonergic neurons are irreparably fucked, and b) life seems flat, dull and lacking in excitement now they're 'clean' - then they pitch up at psychiatric clinics, being narky and critical with all and sundry for failing to somehow re-inject happiness and purpose into their lives.

Rant over.
 
 
Sax
13:25 / 01.11.01
Hmm. I can tell you have a few issues here. Would it help to talk about it?
 
 
Sax
13:26 / 01.11.01
 
 
Ganesh
14:57 / 01.11.01
And I never use the term 'issues'...

 
 
Perfect Tommy
09:27 / 16.11.01
(A bump to herald the arrival of the thread in The Magick.)
 
 
Ierne
12:18 / 16.11.01
Hmmm...very disturbing initial post...

I haven't been in a situation like that. It's always been a given for me that if I don't get my act together and take care of myself I'll be one of those homeless fuckers in the street. New York is not kind to its homeless. Therefore, I have never allowed myself to get so depressed that I cannot earn a paycheck. Apathy and lack of motivation for me just isn't an option.

I admit to being extremely antisocial (some would say misanthropic!); I'm not very comfortable in social situations and prefer my own company. But interpersonal interaction is a skill that can be learned; it's not something you "are" or "aren't." The only way to learn it – like Magick – is to do it.

I also get deeply depressed for long periods of time. I'm really not sure how I get out of them. But I will not let the depression get the better of me. THAT is the mental state by which I tackle the depression and come to terms with it. I've never taken perscription medicine for depression, nor have I ever seen a therapist.

As far as the "purposeful changing of one's psychology through magic", that's a tough question for me to answer. Magick is a part of my life; I've been doing it for over fifteen years, on and off. It's not something apart from my existence that I can use to intercede in my existence. The above example of using my willpower to get out of my house and interact with people in a calm, open manner despite my preference to stay in and read a good book is the best example of Magick I could give.

I don't wish to be cruel, or accentuate any suffering. But "chemical imbalance" shouldn't be a catch-all excuse for not taking care of one's life.
 
 
Persephone
16:34 / 16.11.01
Eh, this is a more head-shoppy answer & not magical... but anyway, I recently finished reading Plato, not Prozac! and found it helpful. As the title suggests, it offers philosophy as an alternative to psychology--though I did think the author was a little too transparently hard on the latter, but then I do also think that all self-help books should be read with a healthy dose of cui bono...

...anyway, caveats aside, I feel it is true that there is a body of wisdom that perhaps people could dip into more than they do. I'm not talking about a sacred pool or anything... more like a thrift store where you can rummage and discover and make yours according to taste.

For example, he gives as a thumbnail of Stoic philosophy that one should not value anything that anyone else has the power to take away from you. This was meant to illuminate a particular situation where a guy liked his job, but felt resentful about being passed over for certain perks like a window office. Which actually illuminated my own situation, though rather in reverse... it made me realize that in my present job the thing that's regularly taken away from me is my pleasure in doing the job, whilst I am well-paid and in fact have a window. Hence my misery. Hence I quit. And I took *much* pleasure in hearing myself explain to my boss, "You know, the Stoics believed..."

And I had been fairly miserable, and had been having doubts about my brain chemistry and all that. And I feel better now.

Oh-- there was a "magical" bit to the book, too, there was a whole section about the I Ching, which I'm now interested in.

I also like what Ierne said about using her willpower to interact with people in a calm, open manner.

At the moment I had better use my willpower to get my work assignment finished, though. They've still got three more weeks of me, and I'd still like to give 'em a job well done.
 
 
cat likes fish
17:05 / 16.11.01
Ganesh you are my hero. Ganesh is right if you are going to use drug's don't be so fucking shocked if you feel empty inside. oh ya doubting thomas make the choce to be happy and every time you start to swing one way or anther remind your self that you have made a choice that you are going to be happy. and getting out more might help.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:19 / 16.11.01
I have found magick more than helpful. It's not so much the actual results (for example: a depressive with a good job and a lovely girl/boyfreind is still a depressive, peeps), but the techniques- meditation, visualization, and creative thought. I've found that when it comes to getting some perspective, taking that crucial step back from the problem, the lessons of magick are my rod, staff and swiss-army knife.

Plus it gives you a safe place to put your brain when life is stressful. No bad thing, I'm sure you'll agree.
 
 
cusm
18:36 / 16.11.01
Well, on therepy and magic, professional psychologists are a rather new thing in human history. Before them, this job fell to shamans, witchdoctors, priests, etc. A lot of magic techniques are ways to make changes in yourself. Used to identify, corner, and deal with a problem, magic is therepy. Its psychology, but in the abstract symbolic sense rather than the more logical approach. Take away all the cause and effect, and just deal with it directly as it is.

As an example, one might visualize their apathy as a demon causing it. One strengthens this relation by continued contemplation and rationalization, providing "evidence" to themselves that "the demon kept me from leaving the couch that day". Perhaps in time, they may begin directly visualizing the demon as a force pressing on them, pushing them down. Should they fight this manifested force somehow, such as they banishment, direct combat, or exorcism, the experience may be powerful enough for them to rid that influence from their psyche, and become less apathatic.

That's just one way you can use magical methods to deal with psychological problems. Was there really a demon? Who cares. If the person believed in the experience strongly enough, they effected a change in themselves. Behold, the power of belief

Another use of magic is in the contemplation of escoteric systems as a means to achieve balance within onesself. For example, the 4 elements model. Each element describes an aspect of the self, all of which in balance describe the whole. Apathy may be seen as a negative imbalance in the fire aspect. One may then contemplate things "firey" and partake in "firey" activities in order to bring themselves into balance. Indulge in music, sex, dance, exercise, violent video games, bright lights, whatever. In effect, they get off their ass and get busy, with the reason being something escoteric rather than specific. The results are the same, the person becomes more active, and thus combats the apathy that saps their will. Perhaps when they've managed to maintain a better energy level, they can then redirect it towards correcting the things in their life they've let slip.

The way I see it, a magician is his own therepist. If you know you've got a problem, you've already got enough handle on it to fix it. Its just a matter of effort from there.

I don't know, what do you think of this Ganesh? As a psychologist, do you see possible use of these methods as tools, granted that they be practiced dilligently and competently? To me, it all seems the same sort of thing, just with different names and associations.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:48 / 16.11.01
quote:
... Last year at the Glastonbury Festival I had to take my friend to the medical tent because he had taken far too many drugs and was on his hands and knees puking, his tongue lolling and his eyes rolling.

This is one of the things i do for entertainment... well the drugs part sure but also working in the "psych" devision of the medicial tent. While it affords tons of free entry to tons of concerts & fairs (back stage passes & all) it's also great fun!! Really. While I'm not a Dr. of anything... LOTS of Milage along the edges of reality has equiped me to be able to successfully pull others back from over the edge. I fermly believe that the accumulated Good KARMA insures only the best of trips when I'm taking my own excursions!!!

Sorry for the aside!!!

On the fortification of one's psychie:

I cannot speaks highly and frequently enough about the benefits of Some sort of meditation regiment. Zen, Yoga, Tai-chi, Qigong, Holotropic breathing, Exsorcise, etc...
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:52 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
It's always been a given for me that if I don't get my act together and take care of myself I'll be one of those homeless fuckers in the street....

I don't wish to be cruel, or accentuate any suffering. But "chemical imbalance" shouldn't be a catch-all excuse for not taking care of one's life.

Not taken as cruel in the slightest--that's nothing I haven't mentioned to myself.

I don't know if I can properly explain what was going on. Compare seeing aspects of your life crumble around you, and channel-surfing across a documentary about the same about someone you've never heard of. Thoughts such as "if I don't get my act together and take care of myself I'll be one of those homeless fuckers in the street" were very present--they just had no discernible effect.

I found this to be scary as hell. I swung between noticing things crumbling with the attitude of an impartial observer, and virtually screaming, "Just what are you going to eat?" with a side of "Boy, you sure are worthless, huh?" (Which is funny, because my self-esteem has been at a pretty reasonable level... I don't like what the asshole is/was doing/not doing, but he seems a decent guy overall.)

I also didn't quite mean to blame everything on neurochemistry and leave myself spotless; it's that Ierne's reaction to stress is the "normal" one, and I've felt that there was some sort of serious malfunction going on in my head. An article I came across which informed me that some type or types of adult-onset schizophrenia might be characterized by depression and apathy, at about my age, %really cheered me up%. (A friend more knowledgeable about such things has since pointed out why my concerns about this were bullshit.)

By the by--I drink very moderately, and I have tried marijuana three times and decided that I hate it. So goes my torrid affair with drug culture. And come to think of it, I think the therapist I went to was a social worker with no "Dr." in front of his name--I really had no intention of disparaging the institute of psychiatry.

This isn't the end of the story, but it's somewhere in the middle: job interviews have taken place, resumes have been sent out, four major food groups are in my kitchen. So far it has taken humiliation in front of loved ones to spur these changes (borrowing grocery money from one's girlfriend is not something I hope to repeat).

Despite the worst appearing to be over, I desperately want this to never happen again; your comments, present and future, are being taken to heart.

(Oh, and NaNoWriMo actually seems to be helping, even if I am 17,000 words behind schedule.)
 
 
grant
17:08 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
I cannot speaks highly and frequently enough about the benefits of Some sort of meditation regiment. Zen, Yoga, Tai-chi, Qigong, Holotropic breathing, Exsorcise, etc...


Word up.
Find a class. Take the class.
Hell, in LA, qualified Tai Chi instructors are growing on TREES, man.
My sister does the acupuncture out there, and classes were offered through her school, Yo San University in Santa Monica. I bet if you called them, they'd give you ALL kinds of info on classes. Even ones not in the immediate area, if you'd rather find one further east.
Here's a community outreach page with workshops an' stuff, along with some contact info.

You can also get cheap treatments from their clinic. That is, if you're interested in treating what bothers you with Traditional Chinese Medicine - herbs, needles, massage or something, all aimed at bringing the ol' chi into balance. It might not be your thing, though, and does cost a little money. Prices listed on that page, $30 for initial 2 hr visit, then $25 for each subsequent visit.

If you'd like, I can email my sister's addy, or write her myself, and she could point you toward a good teacher.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
Ganesh
17:47 / 19.11.01
Cat Likes Fish: I like you.

Doubting Thomas: I think it's highly unlikely that you have schizophrenia (of which around 90-odd percent, I'd estimate, is "adult-onset"); it almost always presents differently (hallucinations, delusions, thought disorder). Common things occur commonly: it's much more likely that you're experiencing straightforward unhappiness which, if it's gone unrelieved for as long, is shading into depression. Always difficult to decide exactly where 'normal' dissatisfaction becomes 'illness' but, since the term "chemical imbalance" isn't a particularly accurate or helpful one, it's best to avoid it.

Cusm & Mordant: I completely agree that magick represents a good, perfectly valid way of centring and stabilising oneself. I'd also agree that psychiatry/psychology and magick utilise a lot of shared skills and techniques albeit under different names. The placebo effect, for example, is a powerful well-recognised phenomenon - and we're taught several ways to optimise it. Relaxation techniques and breathing exercises are virtually identical to magickal visualisation exercises. There's a definite sense of ritual to psychiatry (and medicine in general) which can be turned to one's advantage to maximise the placebo effect.

Etc., etc.

Depression is one of those subjective experiences (like 'energy' over in the other thread) which everyone thinks they can define but is actually rather elusive. That's why I'm usually a little reluctant to apply the "think positively" school of advice before I've sat down and spent time exploring symptoms, and compared them, mentally, with those of the other depressed individuals I've talked to. Whether or not someone's capable of "applying willpower" depends on a myriad of variables: nature and degree of depressed mood, personality type, usual coping mechanisms, life situation, background and present environment. And so on.

Vaguely related to the 'ritual' thing, I've been intrigued on three past occasions to find that elderly Catholic patients seem to respond best to me when I'm dressed in black; one (who, admittedly, was pretty far-gone with Alzheimers) even asked to call me 'Father'...

Horses for courses.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
03:36 / 20.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
Doubting Thomas: I think it's highly unlikely that you have schizophrenia...

Oh, heavens no. The aforementioned friend didn't soothe my fears and talk me down so much as announce, "You are full of shit" and then enumerated the reasons why. It was probably what I needed.

quote:Always difficult to decide exactly where 'normal' dissatisfaction becomes 'illness' but, since the term "chemical imbalance" isn't a particularly accurate or helpful one, it's best to avoid it.
I guess I should have put scare quotes on it the first time around... It was inaccurate shorthand for all my what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-me feelings, I guess. I apologize for my sucky use of terminology (and I really mean it--I don't want to trivialize a real problem by stealing words to describe a handwavey problem).

I'm going to resume the meditation I used to do a long, long time ago, and have neglected for too long. And a friend was bugging me about trying Qi Gong, and I ignored her... I'll listen this time around. In the shorter term, 3441 words today felt very nice, and regular walks aren't hurting either.

(Oh--when I say "spider", does anyone immediately think of a deity/myth that applies to this thread? I've been seeing them all over, and was deciding that it should mean something (a la the magickal consciousness trick I was talking about earlier), and decided it damn well better mean something when a friend pointed out, "Hey, there's a spider crawling on your face," and wasn't kidding.)
 
 
grant
14:19 / 20.11.01
You've just had a writer's breakthrough and you're seeing spiders everywhere?


Anansi the Spider.

He, among other famous spiders, created humans to God's specifications. They're great builders of insubstantial things, spiders.

Quite the trickster, Anansi is.

This isn't to understate the contributions of Grandmother Spider of the Hopis.
She also built humans. And looks out for them far more than Anansi does.
Her kids keep us safe from Man-Eater.
Not that she's
above a bit of scolding.

[ 20-11-2001: Message edited by: grant ]
 
  
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