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Underground > Comic Books >

Marvel's Iconic Female

Porn Star Justice

19:03 / 07.10.04

I saw the Marvel chess set in a store window at lunch today. Besides being disappointed in the character selection and their chess piece counter part, I was struck by the choice of the Kings & Queens.

The black side was the Kingpin and Mystique. The white side was Captain America and...somebody. For the life of me I could not figure out who she was. It was a dark haired female in a non-descript blue outfit.

I tried to figure it out in my head by going through the major Marvel females and...realized I could not think of any.

Over at DC, the big three are Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman. Those are the three just about everyone knows.

At Marvel, I'd say the big three are Spider-Man, Captain America & the Hulk.

I just can't think of a Marvel female character on the same par as a Wonder Woman. Most of their major females don't stand on their own. They are part of a team (Storm, Jean Grey, Invisible Woman), they don't stand on their own.

What's up with that? Why doesn't Marvel have any stand alone major female players?

Or am I just forgetting someone really obvious?

Professor Silly

20:20 / 07.10.04

...might it have been Elektra? She was in a movie, and apparently will have her own shortly....

20:49 / 07.10.04

The main female characters I can think of at Marvel (off the top of my head) are

The Wasp, She-Hulk, Invisible Woman and various lady X-Men. Oh - Phoenix/Jean Grey.

They did go through a big "lady versions of the boys" phase in the early eighties - Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman... And then again with the M2 thing - Wolverine's daughter, Spider-girl, The female captain america...

but yeah, i think you're on the money there. WW's been around since the 40s - what marvel ladies were there in the 40s?

m.

20:52 / 07.10.04

Just checked this and apparently it's Jean Grey. Didn't recognise from the costume.

m.

23:19 / 07.10.04

Well Storm's been put up against WW in various Marvel/DC crossovers. Jean Grey/Phoenix has only been popular since the 70's (same with Storm).

Wasp & Invisible woman seem to reflect some semi-negative "female" traits.

SHE HULK maybe but also quite new.

You could also consider the iconic nature of the Marvel stable vs. DC.

SUPERMAN, BATMAN, WONDERWOMAN,

SPIDERMAN, HULK, CAPTAIN AMERICA (or IRON MAN)

They are coming from very different places...

how about DAZZELER?

XXII:X:II = XXX

04:45 / 08.10.04

Isn't Dazzler dead? And even if not, she's not exactly iconic.

I'd say the strongest, most immediately recognizable female character in the Marvel U is Phoenix, but she's very often dead and sure as hell can't support a solo book.

Patsy Walker is a classic Marvel character from the days in which they weren't exclusively superheros. Then she became one, died, and I think is currently among the living. Attempts to give her her own book in the past few decades have been abortive at best. Also, there's The Fury from The Invaders, which of course dates back 60 years, and is now back in the current incarnation... though is she the same Fury?

Interesting phenomenon, this. The one advantage I can see to this discrepancy is that there are likely far more female superheros in the Marvel U than in the DCU. After the Holy DC Trinity, there's a steep dropoff.

/+,

06:11 / 08.10.04

Surely it should be Ms Marvel, if only by dint of her name.

06:23 / 08.10.04

iconic... archetypal?

Batman = Id@Manipura
Superman = Ego@Anahata
Wonder Woman = SuperEgo@Vishuddha

I don't know the ultimate history of the industry, but isn't DC the outgrowth of several companies from the 30s-50s? And Marvel the consolidated universe concieved in the 60s? They're not equal in any way I can see, except from a novice point of view that Big Two equal-each-other. But let's deduce the questions he puts forth.

1) Who is the Marvel Universe Wonder Woman?
An argument can easily be made that Thor is Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman. Same for Dr. Strange. The most accurate answer would be Power Princess, but the most appropriate answer would be Storm. Storm, could, if given attention, handle a book on her own, and it would be interesting.

2) And why doesn't Marvel have any major players that are women?
For shame. Phoenix is probably the most interesting player in the Marvel Universe. She's terrifying, inspiring, ridiculously powerful, god-like —she's pretty much the Dying God, she bridges the gap between plain superhero stories and divine myth, and reminds us of the role of God in what-is-good.

What's interesting to note is that Alan Moore's reinvention of comic universes, found in ABC by Wildstorm has an iconic answer to your question: Promethea. She can easily be seen as Wonder Woman imbued with the almighty Phoenix Force.

06:26 / 08.10.04

Excellent point, Sax.

08:11 / 08.10.04

Thanks. And isn't Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman (in terms of being brought up in a lost, women-centric civilisation rather than being an actual mythical goddess) Thundra?

08:15 / 08.10.04

There was no Marvel in the 40's. There was Timely, and Timely had the Blonde Phantom and Miss America.
And SHAME! SHAME on you ALL for forgetting Marvel's FEMALE ICON!

"I don't need luck. I eat nuts!"

11:00 / 08.10.04

I think, in this case, the term "major player" is used to refer to a character that has had a long-running title about them, and is easily recognised by non-comic readers.

but what I want to know is, could supergirl beat up the she-hulk?

m.

11:01 / 08.10.04

squirrel girl? god bless steve ditko.

m.

11:06 / 08.10.04

The things that make WW iconic just aren't part of Marvel's history.
Marvel (60's era) focused on mainly characters who were male; Spiderman, most of the FF, Captain America, Doc Strange, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Nick Fury etc.

They also didn't really go in for television series a la Batman and Wonder Woman (who I'd argue is ONLY Iconic nowadays because of the TV show).

Marvel's main female characters have always been a foil to their leading men;
Jean Grey to Xavier and Scott,
Mary Jane to Spiderman,
Elektra to Daredevil,
Storm to Wolverine and Scott,
Sue Storm to Reed and Johnny.
They were the grounded, dependable females on the arm of their men. Unless they went "dark" of course.

Wonder Woman by contrast is almost a deity, with her own historical mythos already situated in ancient mythology.
So ostensibly her Marvel counterpart is Thor (except he's Male).

Marvel's iconic females aren't as well known (outside of the comic spectrum) mostly due to the lask of exposure. I would expect Jean Grey to become iconic with the release of X3, Elektra too now she has her own movie.

It's this bleed into more mainstream entertainment that brings a character to icon status. Wonder Woman got there in the 70's along with Batman and Superman attained it in the 80's (with the movies).

I think Marvel are just catching up, they may be a bigger player in the comic world (arguably) but the transition to other media has been a very slow and torturious one.

Except cartoons... but they appeal to pretty much the same demographic as the comics.

Unless someone can point out an upcoming Wonder Woman movie I think that her icon status can be relegated to nostalgia, there's hardly anything contemporary about her for the general public nowadays.

13:22 / 08.10.04

This is something that has always bothered me, Marvel's lack of a female icon. I think it bothers them too, but they simply don't have a female character that is a) immediately recognizable and brand-able (b/c they keep changing their friggin' costumes), and b) not a foil or female version of a male character (ie, spider-woman, she-hulk).

But it's obvious that it bothers them too, b/c they've obviously been trying to create one. Mystique got her own book, but they can never truly make her into a hero, that would water the character down. Emma Frost has been getting a lot of press lately—her own book, guest appearances in Spider-Man, lead character in their most newsworthy title—but she a) doesn't have a superhero name and b) is too trashy for children. Now we also have a Rogue mini and a Phoenix mini, but both characters have to really compete with Storm to be alpha-X-woman, preventing them from being Marvel's WW.

Marvel's movies are the key to creating a female icon that is on par with Superman, Spider-Man and Wonder Woman. It could have been Storm if she was given lead status in the movies and had a more iconic costume. It could be Jean if they highlight Phoenix in X3 and make her a true superhero, and not a benign entity or some crap. But, I always thought Jean's lack of and confusion about a codename prevented her from being an icon. We have Sue Storm coming up, but unless the movie spins her as the lead of the FF, she ain't it—which is a shame b/c The Invisible Woman has all of the traits to be an icon (superhero name ending in "woman", distinguishable power, recognizable costume), but the team concept in FF outweighs each character individually.

So basically Marvel is screwed. If there was a cartoon, movie and solo book based on Phoenix—and the term "jean grey" was hardly used—then I say Jean's our candidate. She has the potential to transcend the X-Men, but the bitch keeps dying! And they blew it with Storm, who can't really transcend the X-Men, but maybe. A stronger actress and stronger role would've made Ororo another potential candidate, but noooo. They had to cast Halle Berry and give her no lines.

17:12 / 08.10.04

STORM seems to have the best bet.

Not only female but African (American?), powers that are easily defined and an appearance that can transend whatever costume she happens to be in (brown skin, white hair, blue eyes (or white)) though it's gennerally black spandex with gold trim.

If handled well, a spin off comic could attain it's own status in a similar way WOLVERINE has. Of course Chris Clarmont would have to be kept away from it with a cattle prod. Ms Marvel could've worked but now that she's WARBIRD I doubt it.

ROGUE... maybe

Professor Silly

17:18 / 08.10.04

I think a factor we've ignored so far is how continuity and history are constantly being changed in the comic worlds. If I understand my comic history correctly, Wonder Woman was a part of team books mostly and her own title was basically a bondage-fest where Wonder Woman needed saving every other issue. In this sense she certainly seems analagous to the Invisible Woman, although the Justice books stressed diversity while the Fantastic Four stressed family (the former more easily allows characters to break away while the latter suffers from removing any of the four ingredients).

Then in the 1980's Wonder Woman was updated (and still found her comic very much a niche market). Only with the "bad-girl" phase in the 1990's did we see solo books with leading female characters start to approach the top of the sales charts. Now Wonder Woman is considered one of the "big three" in DC comics...I'd say partly due to the sheer length of her history combined with the fact that she represents an archetypal character (the Amazon/masculated-female-warrior/Athena).

So I'd say Marvel doesn't have a true analogy to Wonder Woman due to sheer luck and historical circumstance.

Professor Silly

17:21 / 08.10.04

...or if there is one maybe it's Northstar....

17:31 / 08.10.04

You've pretty much got Jean Grey, Storm, Rogue, Invisible Woman... in terms of the biggest and most visible to the outside, non-comics world. (Most people in the Outside World don't know the Invisible Woman now, but they will once that silly-looking FF movie comes out.)

18:25 / 08.10.04

If I understand my comic history correctly, Wonder Woman was a part of team books mostly and her own title was basically a bondage-fest where Wonder Woman needed saving every other issue.

not sure that's entirely accurate... well the needing to be save bit at least.. the bondage.. sure!!! here's a bit of a hisstory (or shall we say HERstory?) on Wonder Woman.

Professor Silly

23:46 / 08.10.04

Thank you for that history link--that was all new information for me. Not only did she appear in comics solo before Justice League, but with the psychologist/creator she was also incredibly ahead of her time.

Perhaps this further illustrates the difference frequently cited between DC and Marvel: DC uses iconic, god-like characters like Superman while Marvel uses the "everybody"-hero like Spider-Man.

So to bring this back to the original thread topic...I don't think Marvel has anything directly corresponding to Wonder Woman.

In terms of the masculine female, I'd say She-Hulk.

In terms of presence and heroism, I'd say Storm.

In terms of being a positive role-model for women...well, that's a little more difficult.

Marvel by its very nature deals with characters with flaws. Wasp is a battered wife who often seems shallow. The Invisible Women allows her feelings for Namor affect her marriage....

05:26 / 09.10.04

Woner Woman counts as one of the "Big Three" because Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were the only superhero books to survive the 50's without cancellation.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:30 / 09.10.04

OK, slightly different question. APART FROM Wonder Woman, big iconic female characters in the DCU? I think that before slamming Marvel, perhaps WW is a fluke rather than a more enlightened universe...

And aren't 'the big characters' in both universes merely those that have had TV shows/films? So perhaps if Squirrel Girl had had her own TV series that ran for years she'd be up there as the character they can't kill off in 'Avengers Disassembled'?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

15:55 / 09.10.04

A couple of things about the thread:

Wonder Woman, as a comic book in the US, has been published at a profit for DC from 1940 - 1945, and in 1987. The rest of the time, it has lost money on the publishing end. The main reason it will stay in print as long as DC exists is that the creator's contract (and it passed to his heirs) is that as long as DC publishes a monthly Wonder Woman comic, they have the rights. If they don't the rights revert to the family.

Wonder Woman makes money in other countries (I read one report that it is still the highest selling comic in South America, and that's why they put Deodato on it back in the mid-90's) and through licensing, but even now, if it were not for this deal, it would be hard to justify DC putting high $ talent on a book that sells so poorly.

At Marvel, Stan Lee aimed his books at young teenage boys, and wasn't very good at writing female characters. Kirby was good at them, but Stan tended to keep them as plot devices and supporting characters, because he loved the angsty soap opera factor. And it worked for him.

I woudl argue that Wonder Woman's LOOK and character design may be iconic, but her character is so flexible that other than being a strong woman, she's not. Batman is a grim vigilante, Superman is the big blue boy scout and Wonder Woman...well, in the 40's she was a bandage queen, in the 50's and early 60's she was a female Superman, in the 60's and early 70's she was a "liberated" woman with all of the inherant cliches, and since then, she's been "generic female super hero." Perez tried her as an abassador for peace, but when's the last time anyone used that?

At Marvel, the female character that pops into my mind is Storm, and with the X-Men movies...well, let's just say that when they get a decent actress in the role, and give her some screen time, she could be as well.

But mainstream super-hero comics are a bad place to look for iconic female characters.

I would submit that the iconic comic book women are Betty and Veronica without a hint of irony. Everyone knows them, they have clear, defined personalities and for a lot of people, define what they think of when they think of comic book women, both good and bad.

19:06 / 09.10.04

Well I really can not think of ONE marvel female, that is on the same icon level as WW, buut what if DC did not have WW, who would her replacement be.

19:24 / 09.10.04

Catwoman? Powergirl? Death?

20:29 / 09.10.04

I suppose Catwoman could fill the role. Death is interesting, but she is definitely the poster girl for Vertigo I guess.

23:30 / 09.10.04

Betty = Wonder Woman = Phoenix = dove

Veronica = Catwoman = White Queen = serpent

There's a wealth of interesting stories to be told if someone were to realize that the strange ideological dichotomy that exists between WW and Bats was stronger and stranger if it were applied to Clark and Selina. I woud contend that in our current climate, Catwoman is a better archetype for female heroes than Diana is.

XXII:X:II = XXX

09:22 / 10.10.04

Strangely enough, I'd say the next most "strong" woman in the DCU after Wonder Woman is Oracle. She transcended the female analogue of male superhero cliche through a true "test of fire" situation (Joker crippling her), yet didn't allow herself to become a victim and is still very much instrumental in large-scale crimefighting operations. Plus, I've seen her still go hand-to-hand with the new Batgirl and hold her own. Barbara Gordon is no one to fuck with.

I've always felt Powergirl and Black Canary were sort of light in the characterization departments, but I don't read JSA or BIRDS OF PREY so that may have changed. Even so, the impressions they make on readers is more important, and they don't strike me as characters I'm interested in reading more about. Perhaps the new Manhunter will eventually fulfill some sort of archetype, but I'm not holding my breath.

/+,

18:12 / 11.10.04

Unless someone can point out an upcoming Wonder Woman movie I think that her icon status can be relegated to nostalgia, there's hardly anything contemporary about her for the general public nowadays.

Halloween costumes as cultural index: a six-year-old girl of my acquaintance is torn as to what she wants to be for Halloween.

Wonder Woman? Or, from the TV show, Hawkgirl?

It's interesting that Scarlet Witch doesn't turn up in the Marvel discussions. I always thought she was a little goofy (the costume, plus her time period was exactly when I thought DC was "cooler"), but she's got some status. Didn't she lead the Avengers or Defenders or somebody once upon a time?

18:22 / 11.10.04

Aside from a clunky she seems just a bit too derivative. Also her powers have always been this weird sort of thing changing from story arch to story arch... So while I personally enjoy the charactor it just seems to me that there's too much against her to be iconic.

20:05 / 11.10.04

Halloween costumes don't really count, not in England anyway.
We can't be bothered most of the time.
But I would hazard a guess she's been watching the cartoon?

Betty and Veronica who?
I mean, I get it because I read comics (and I'm fairly well read in comics) but once again, not in Engalnd. Perhaps Calamity Jane or Minnie the Minx?

I agree Catwoman is probably the next "big" DC female, not because of the dire film recently but from Batman Returns.. Meow!