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Initiation, Tradition, and Practice

  
 
—| x |—
07:17 / 28.01.02
This popped into my head while thinking about Little Mother’s concerns.

Those of us who, for one reason or another, have never been initiated into an occult* group, nor had interaction with a teacher,* have had to pretty much forge our own road. We might follow a certain style of practice, or pick and choose an eclectic selection from the wide range of paradigms* available to us, but we are left to our own ways when choosing what we do and do not include in our studies and practices. This can have both positive and negative consequences which apply to both the individual practitioner* and to the systems of belief upon which the practitioner bases his or her own model.* However, I do not wish to delve into these consequences at this time, but would rather discover how tradition* has influenced the path that you feel yourself to be on.

While having a rather "pick and choose" system that is part my own creative construction and part eclectic synthesis I have generally kept the four vows of the magician as guiding touchstones* in my life. I was first exposed to these around the time that I was undergoing what Wyrd describes (see above thread) as an unknowing initiation. For those unsure of what I refer to, these four vows are:

To Know, To Dare, To Will, and To Keep Silent.

I think that these have stuck with me since I was first turned-on* (or perhaps, re-tuned in...) to the wonderful world of (as?) magick.* They are things that have provided me with insight, foci for meditation, and a set of rough principles by which to orient myself. On occasion, when I’m brave enough to listen, they have revealed to me my weaknesses, and pointed to ways in which I can accept, mend, or balance these holes in my person. In other words, these ten words (which, in my opinion, reflect many a 4 found in many traditions*) have meant much to me since the time I rekindled my fire.

Each one of these, I’m sure, will be thought of in different ways by each one of us, but also, each, I think, contains a common core which is shared by those who use these words as part of their system.

Does anyone else consider these "four vows" important to their practice? Or does anyone have some criticism of them? What sort of touchstones* do you, as an "unattached" practitioner,* have in your life that have stemmed from traditional* sources?

[words with * indicate terms which are intended to reflect the set of all other words which could be used in their place; i.e., they are words as synecdoches--parts which reflect the whole]

Holding a candle in a vast dark cavern,
17 + 6 = 3 (mod 5)
 
 
Rev. Wright
08:41 / 28.01.02
Hmm good thread. Fits well into the period of calm and reflection that I have been experiencing. Will be back.
 
 
ciarconn
10:55 / 28.01.02
I do not think that we self learners can be said to be lacking of an initiation ritual.

I think that our path itself has provided us all with some situation or circumstance that substitutes (in form and in function) the initiation ritual.

On the same vein, I would question how necesary is a teacher when you are on this "business". A teacher is like a Psychoilogist, he does your work for you, he leads you on the only way you can walk.
 
 
angel
12:01 / 28.01.02
quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:
On the same vein, I would question how necesary is a teacher when you are on this "business". A teacher is like a Psychoilogist, he does your work for you, he leads you on the only way you can walk.

I'm feeling a little stupid today, I can't quite get what you mean Ciarconn.

Are you referring to a psychologist, meaning someone who is like a counsellor? <I promise I am not having a go at you about spelling> Because depending on what kind of counsellor they are and what methods they are using depends on how they lead you through the healing/growth process. Which is, I guess, what I am asking you to qualify.

I agree with your very last sentence about "you have to walk the path in your own way to be true to yourself", but I think that it is yourself that does the showing and the walking, not the teacher. Maybe I am getting caught up in semantics, maybe I'm just tired and grumpy, but I do want to understand what you mean. sigh!
 
 
Mr Ed
13:39 / 28.01.02
Ultimately we are alone, despite the interconnectedness of all things. (does that make sense? Hope it does)

The path I walk has been mentored and tutored along the way, but most of the time I've been left to my own devices.

I've met people who were trained and intiated, and then gone off on their own. They seemed to have learned more that way than with a teacher ("doing the best thinking on the toilet" kind of thing.)

Even if you meet up with a bunch of like minded person and "tune in" with them your
individual strengths and weaknesses still come out, which is both good and bad.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:14 / 28.01.02
quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:


On the same vein, I would question how necesary is a teacher when you are on this "business". A teacher is like a Psychoilogist, he does your work for you, he leads you on the only way you can walk.

I pretty much said my peace on the 'need' for a teacher in my last post in this thread so while I don't think everyone 'needs' a teacher (and this thread isn't the appropriate place to debate it anyway) I don't think I agree with your analogy of a teacher=psychiatrist.

In the same way that someone could benefit learning blacksmithing from a experienced blacksmith, certain magical methodologies can be taught in the same way. Especially when approaching this as a 'business' (i.e., working in a 'community' whether money is exchanged or not).

I've learned more about performing shamanic healings (soul retrievals, power animal retrievals, extractions, etc.) from 'interning' in actual sessions with my teacher than I ever would just figuring it all out by myself. Even if I didn't have a human teacher, the spirits would still be teaching me in the same way.

She hasn't done my work for me and she hasn't just shown me the way. She's shown me specific techniques that have helped me get up to speed to do the work myself. And something human 'teachers' have been able to do is help me navigate the legal obstacles in doing healings of this nature, especially in litigious California.

Any GOOD teacher should be doing the same thing, whether they be human, spirit, god-form, etc.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:22 / 28.01.02
As for the '4 vows', they just sound like good advice in becoming good at anything.

You have to know your field.

You have to be confident enough to practice and further it.

You have to be disciplined and willful enough to be focused and to continue through the challenges to reach new areas of achievement and expertise.

You have to know when it's appropriate to share information and when you should shut up because that info is 'confidential'.

They sound like good maxims in many aspects of life, not just magic.
 
 
Gho5tD4nc3r
17:12 / 28.01.02
Those four vows are written in the front cover of my ...er...book (I'd call it grimoire, but that sounds really up my own arse). I kind of follow them, but partly because it is easier to manifest things without skeptics knowing what you're doing. they were taught to me less as vows and more as a formula.

To Know: the path offers, but requires Knowledge

To Dare: the need to have the Heart to act

To Will: without the focus of Will it is only daydreaming

To Keep Silent: tread lightly...

Tradition has taught me structure, but I rarely use it as little more than a foundation. Aside from that I've largely taught myself.
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:31 / 28.01.02
I used to want to have a teacher, like some wise old sage in the stories, but none were about. I used to like the idea of teaming up with a group of like minded folk and creating a cabal, but people are fickle in nature.

I'm an idealist and though it gets me odd looks and distainful comments, I stand proud of my breadth of vision, born from a wealth of pain and suffering. It has become 'my' way as a 'wounded healer', and without the overt/obvious trappings and seclusion of Medicine, or more magick, it has allowed me to heal and pass on wisdom to those who ordinarily would have scoffed.

I am in limbo, in two realms, I am the zen hermit, in perpetual meditative communication with a higher order and the self involved stockmarket dealer, wanking in his Porshe at 120 mph.

The counsel of psychologists only worked after the counsel of Runesmiths, Witches, Mediums, Healers, Mystery School teachers and enemies had allowed me to acknowledge my 'whole' being. Only then did 'rational' treatment help my conscious mind.

I can only talk subjectively on this matter, but I find those who go it alone, are residing in the gaps made by categories, weaving together the fabric of reality. Taking and passing on traditions and techniques, between the lines and boundaries mapped in culture and society. It will be our time, when 'new' variations will take the spotlight from the tried and tested solutions. That to me is why Chaos Magick has helped to liberate and introduce spontaneity to creation and burn the fences.

Stop making sense

I am responsible for my own actions, my own mistakes, that is why I have no permenent 'teacher' or 'coven'. I have to take it on the chin everytime. No safety net, no helmet, fuck it, no padding.

I have to say that recently I have to come to 'realise' that our DNA is timeless and holds all the information we need. (Gaia bless Leary, X)

Trust in your instinct, doubt your ego.

How can lessons like that be learnt under the constant lantern light of other(s).

Go build own lantern, you shall

Well its here, but a little tempremental at present, keeps flickering, but when its on...
...boy, I can see for miles.

On your own you are forced to socialise in a crowd. Independent you are never lonely in the wilderness
 
 
ciarconn
23:03 / 28.01.02
Wow, that was quite a trip, Will, and absolutely right.

Angel, no problem. I had nort felt as good as I feel in this board in a long time. I didn't write well because I was in a hurry (between classes), and about the spelling, sorry (to everybody) english is my second lenguage (of almost four) and I sometimes get them mixed.
I do believe that counsellor is what I meant by psychologist. I understand that in the USA counselling is done by psychiatrists, Here in Mexico it's done by people who study psychology (without the medical part). And I was thinking mostly of Psychoanalisis and derivated treatment techniques (i.e. gestalt, personalism)

About the teacher and the way, well, the tacher leads you or walks with you, on the way. for self-learners, well, the find their own way themselves. I think that we both are saying the same, just with different words.

Mr Tuppan, I agree with your point. It is definitively easier and faster to walk a path that has been threaded before, by the hand of someone who knows it.

there are things that might only be learned that way.

It's just that sometimes teaching is not "direct". Things can be learned in many ways (spiritual leading is one way you pointed).

I believe that one of the greatest hazzards in magick/esoterism/Martial arts is the egomaniacal teacher. So, anybody that goes for a teacher or a group, should be cautious about it, at least at the begining of the path.

peace



  
 
Gho5tD4nc3r
16:52 / 29.01.02
What Will said!
 
 
—| x |—
07:57 / 31.01.02
Ah yes, this is why it's good to keep coming back here!

quote:Mr Ed originally said:
Ultimately we are alone, despite the interconnectedness of all things. (does that make sense?)

<says solemnly, like McCoy announcing a death>

Yes Mr Ed, I’m afraid it does…

</ss>

quote:and Lothar mentioned:
As for the '4 vows', they…sound like good maxims in many aspects of life, not just magic.

In the spirit of keepin’ it real, I certainly agree Lothar. Seems to me that magick* becomes the life, and life becomes the magick.* You carry your Way* with you always, I think, because there is no more to your being than that Way.* This is probably similar to what Will was talking about

quote:when Will stated:
I am in limbo, in two realms, I am the zen hermit, in perpetual meditative communication with a higher order and the self involved stockmarket dealer, wanking in his Porshe at 120 mph.

The Way* is our walk and those things that are part of our Way* are always present, ya’? So yeah, these ten words are directly applicable to life in general, if they are part of your Way.*

Like Will, I am also an idealist, in some ways anyway. I can appreciate what Gho5tD4nc3r means

quote:when Gho5tD4nc3r wrote:
...they were taught to me less as vows and more as a formula.

because that is certainly a way that they can be taken. But I use the word ‘vows’ here in order to characterize them in a way that they become open to question, which allows, I think, for a different avenue of exploration and discovery.

I enjoy saying, “Always question any truth, especially your own,” and I think that holding them, at some moments, before my mind as vows allows me to examine my motives, my ambitions, my faults, my delusions, and other such things that stem from asking the “who, what, where, when, and why” of the knowing, the daring, the willing, and the silence. They needn’t always be held in mind this way, but I feel that it should be done on occasion.

But of course, Will is Wright, we can all only speak subjectively on these matters, at least as so long as we continue to work on our own. It seems that it is when we get into groups of any kind that this is when the subjective moves into what is perceived as objective by that group. This can be a benefit of working with a teacher* and a community that lives as a Way* that happens to be similar to your Way,* but, conceivably, it could also be a hindrance to finding your Way.* Like Lothar notes, different strokes for different folks, ya?

quote:And Lothar sharply points out:
…this thread isn't the appropriate place to debate it anyway



But I will say that I agree with

quote: ciarconn’s:
I believe that one of the greatest hazzards in magick/esoterism/Martial arts is the egomaniacal teacher

In so far as I also believe the complement of this hazard--the egomaniacal student--is also as great, and as people working without support, we need to be extra aware of this.

quote:And so Will’s words:
Trust in your instinct, doubt your ego,

are certainly immediate and pressing for the unattached practitioner.* But, it seems to me, at times it is difficult to distinguish between the two! And maybe this is where tradition can help us, as I think that the structure of tradition (thanks Gho5tD4nc3r) can illustrate to us how to see beyond our own ego: we come to look through a bigger window.

modulus

[for an explanation of * please see my first post above]
[And hiya angel, hope your day is going well! ]

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: modfive ]
 
 
Papess
07:57 / 31.01.02
Well I logged on today with the intent of posting on this here thread. There it was right at the top of the board. Thank you to modfive for pulling it back up.
Ze brings up a very good point or points. These four vows are the cornerstones of good practice. Although the need for silence has changed greatly over the centuries.

To know, Will, Dare and Keep Silent reminds me alot of Don Juan's maxims for the Warrior/Sorceror Cunning, Sweetness, Ruthlessness, and Patience. Does anyone else see this connection?

I tend to combine everything I learn into May Trick's homespun religion but that is good Chaos, right?

~May Tricks
 
 
Seth
00:04 / 23.10.02
Ba-da-bump.

Apologies for not posting a great deal recently. The main reason is that I've just undergone a fairly intense shamanic initiation over the last couple of weeks, and it's not left me in a very communicative mood (during this period part of my soul was absent, so I wasn't in the best place for posting online).

I can't go too much into the details concerning my experience, but I am extremely interested in the general tropes of initiation, which are well documented enough to avoid stepping into the personal. I understand that initiation is an ongoing process, so I guess this recent event was something more akin to an essential way-station on that journey.

The few details I can reveal are that it was pretty textbook, involving death, dismemberment and rebirth with new characteristics and body parts. It was a surprise for me, certainly not something I'd searched for (I'd previously been happy to dabble), and was orchestrated by spirits without a human teacher or guide. I also have some follow-up work to do (damn coursework. I was always much better at exams).

And I feel great. Really brilliant. I was on a high all through Monday afternoon, I guess I hadn't realise how down I'd been feeling throughout the process (having a missing soul part will do that, I guess). I am Galvatron
 
  
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