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I've just seen 'Crouching Tiger'... Who knows owt about Wu- Dan?

 
 
The Planet of Sound
18:06 / 23.01.02
Not that I want to become one of those flying ninja types or anything, you understand, but out of curiosity about the origins of this presumably mythical martial art.

Wu-Dan? Is that what it's called anyway?

I know it's a bit of a leap from all this chaos magick malarkey, but somebody must know something (any oriental scholars out there?). Perhaps you could incorporate it into your rituals. ('There's always been a Wu-Dan element to my magick'.)
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
18:11 / 23.01.02
Ahh grasshopper. In order to get the answers you seek we must all invoke the great asian scholar... PATricky.

If we all smoke some Salvia and pray hard to Lord Ganesh, maybe he will appear.

 
 
The Planet of Sound
18:16 / 23.01.02
Um, it's not for me, it's, er, for my friend.

No, Tripitaka, not the chant.... aaaaaargh!
 
 
NotBlue
18:20 / 23.01.02
Wu-Dan may be one of the many versions of Wudang or Wutan (as in clan). Wudang mountain may have been a place where Chang San Feng, (sp?) to whom the creation of Tai-chi is attributed, lived. It is also the name of a style of tai-chi.
http://www.taichichuan.co.uk
 
 
Ierne
18:29 / 23.01.02
If we all smoke some Salvia and pray hard to Lord Ganesh, maybe he will appear.–Lothar Tuppan

PATricky likes tostones, too...we'd better fry up some plantains!

Seriously PoS, PATricky has excellent Fu. PM him.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:02 / 23.01.02
And if he doesn't know, he probably works with or knows someone who does.
 
 
The Planet of Sound
19:59 / 23.01.02
Calling PATricky......
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:12 / 23.01.02
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm m m m m . . .



Whew... just flew back from Wudang , boy are my swords tired!!!


Basicly... Wudang mountain is known as the birthplace of Taoist kungfu in much the same way Shaolin is considered the birthplace of Buddhist Kungfu.

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: PATricky ]
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:23 / 23.01.02
more later...
 
 
grant
18:03 / 24.01.02
Yeah. The dudes were basically doing kick-ass tai chi.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:27 / 24.01.02
PATricky:

One of the articles you linked to mentioned that since Taoism and Buddhism are fairly entertwined in the martial arts there isn't much difference between them.

I certainly don't want to get into another false duality in this thread but in your opinion is there a difference between the two or is the only diff. the religious focus of the practitioner?

Also, which modern styles are descendents of each religious precursor?
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:20 / 24.01.02
DAMN YOU & YOUR INTELLIGENT QUESTIONS!!!

I'll have 2 get back 2 U!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
23:36 / 24.01.02
 
 
ciarconn
10:54 / 25.01.02
I would not want to but in the theme uninvited, but the theme sounds interesting.
The difference between taoist and budist martial arts.
I would say it's the religious focus (taoism goes for Balance, budism for self anihilation), and the practical emphasis (taoists meditate for ki control, budist for). And that would be on the more original arts.

They have inter.inbfluenced and entwined (hope the words are right). On most of the modern martial arts (i.e. 20th century)there are taoist (ki kung) and budist (meditation) practices, although the emphasis dependes on the teacher's view.

I would like to hear the oipinion of the more experienced people on this board.

I want to learn
 
 
cusm
13:27 / 25.01.02
Well, Kung Fu is Shaolin, and Shaolin is Buddhist. Tai Chi, Baguada and similar internal arts seem to draw directly on Taoist ideas of balance, duality, and use of Qi as in Qi Gong and internal medicine. From Kung Fu one of the main escoteric studies is focus, which would help one in meditation as well as "being in the now".

That's what I've gotten out of them in this respect from my own studies in each, and put together from when my sifu gets worked up and starts lecturing about it
 
 
ciarconn
13:43 / 25.01.02
Could we say that taoist derivated martial arts tend to be soft, and budist derivated martial arts tend to be hard?
 
 
cusm
14:00 / 25.01.02
Well, Kung Fu isn't actually a "hard" style, it includes both hard and soft elements as a more complete system. Karate is a hard style, as an example. Perhaps "internal" vs "external" might be a better term. But yes, that divison seems about right to me.

I'd like to see what PATricky manages to dig up on it
 
 
grant
17:07 / 25.01.02
I'm not so sure about that - from what I've read, there's a huge overlap between monastic communities in China, trading teachers, ideas, language and so forth. (The first Buddhists in China had to use Taoist vocabulary to translate their concepts, apparently - it was the only semantic equipment at hand).

Classes in China cover both.

And this article on some related styles explains the relationship pretty well.

quote:Although Waijia and Neijia follow different philosophies, there are many similarities between them. In China, the most popular Buddhism style is (Chan) Zen. Shaolin Temple is recognized as the place of origin of Chan. The basic Chan idea is a mixture of the original Buddhism and Taoism. This suggests that Chan includes some Taoism. On the other hand, one of the most famous Taoism sects is Quan Zhan (Complete Truth). Zhang Sanfeng supposedly belonged to this style. One of the main ideas of the Quan Zhan sect is that the three main philosophies, Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, are based on the same principles, so therefore they should be united together in practice. These factors may have produced the many philosophical similarities between Waijia and Neijia.


This brief article, and this article too however, give you all the info you need on the differences between the two, and all the history and terminology you need.

quote:There are so many schools and styles of Chinese wushu that no one can exactly list them. Among several nationwide ones, there are much more regional modifications and even those which are practicized by members of not more than one family. Due to this, Chinese wushu cannot be classified formally. In fact, all schools of wushu are divided in two: waijia, or "external family", and neijia, or "internal family".

The schools of waijia concentrate on developing stamina, agility, physical force, strenghtening of body parts exposed to strikes. The neijia schools give priority to psycho-physical training and qigong (mastering of qi). Using a metaphor, waijia is training of body and neijia is training of spirit.

Such a division is rather relative, because every school of wushu has these two sides of training. The matter is the proportion between them.

Traditionally, external schools are under influence of Buddhism; internal schools are inspired by Taoism - the most famous one, known as Wudangpai is named after Mt.Wudang, the sacred place of Taoism.



quote:It is difficult to define the difference between the so called external and internal styles. The most significant differences are to be found in the underlying philosophies and have less to do with the speed or force of the movements. Many so called hard styles include soft elements and vice versa.

" Originally, the difference represented and arose out the two prevailing streams of religious thought; the foreign Indian Buddhism (Shaolin Temple) and the indigenous Chinese Taoism (Wudang Temple) and as such had little to do with the relative 'hardness' or 'softness' of the styles. This latter-day interpretation was most likely constructed in order to mystify a subject insufficiently understood thereby lending it an aura of exoticness." (Lainy Grönman)


Further reading here,
in this fussy-assed historical essay.

I think one of them mentioned that there's often more difference between different family styles of Shaolin or Wudang than there is between some forms of tai chi and related forms of kung fu.
A lot of the differences were artifically created as a part of nationalist propaganda during successive waves of invasion/ethnic power struggles.
 
 
cusm
17:16 / 25.01.02
That, and it was a popular sport for families to develop their own style. Every master had their own ideas on things, and usually their own forms, too.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:28 / 25.01.02
Alright Alright... lets see what i can come up with....

Kungfu:
Kungfu is neither Hard nor Soft... but it can certainly be discribed as difficult. "Kung" sometimes "Gung" or "Gong" can be translated as "great" or "grand". Like in the phrase Gung Shi Fat tsai which means have a great new year... more or less... (Chinese new year is this February the 12th BTW) This is pretty much the same Gong in Chi Kung/Qigong/etc...
Just to complicate things... Chi, Qi, Ki all relate to the same stuff...
So "Kungfu" really translates to a "Great achievement." You can have good Kungfu anything, Grant Morrison has good writting Kungfu.

A grandmaster of a Kungfu style would be refered to as a Sigong because no-one is greater that he(or she) in that style. Your kungfu teacher is a Sifu because he is acting in a fatherly role on your path to achieve Kungfu. So "fu" could be consider the "way/path" & again Kungfu could be considered "mastering the path of..."

Qigong:
Well, we've established that the "gong" in Qigong means "great" or "mastery."

"Qi" or "chi" is well Chi... life force,
energy, we've been there before. So we can look at Qigong as Mastering the breath/chi/energy OR as "having Great breath/chi/energy"

Every martial Art has Qigong in it...NOT every Qigong method has any martial applications. There are Millions of qigong methods...

At it's higher levels of mastery (yes you can have Kungfu in Qigong) you can distinguish styles of Qigong as HARD or SOFT. many a Taiji (or Tai-Chi) master probably has strong soft Qigong. At Shaolin, most monks usually adopt at least one HARD qigong method.

Hard Qigong is pretty impressive to see... this is the relm of Iron body, & the circus type show. people bending spears with their throat, breaking iron bars with their heads...or carrying 10 cinder blocks with their penis.
So yeah, Shaolin monks are not all the same, some focus more on hard Qigong & fighting others are more on the spiritual meditative tip focusing on longevity & internal form.

Shaolin:
I seem to have drifted into Shaolin so I'll continue. Tamo was Bodhidharma a Monk from India who came to China to spread his new style of Buddhism. At this point you could think of buddhism as being heavily influienced by Confusionism, very dogmatic and intrenched with in the economy & culture of the times & the wealthy. His beliefs on a stripped down version weren't very well recieved so he left the courts and travel the country side, eventualy finding Shaolin in the north;Henan province.
The myth goes that he found the monks to be a weak & sickly lot that would often fall asleep durring meditations. He then secluded himself ina cave for 9 years where he meditated on a solution. It was the I-Chin-Ching the book of muscle & tendons changes. This was Shaolin's first Qigong regiment mostly internal but as time pasted these methods where perfected to include many external properties. On a side note: it's believed that Tamo included Yoga & Aruvedic theory in this formula.
Over time the Chan (Zen) methods we now know where refined there & eventually perfected in Japan. The evolving hard Qigong systems where integrated with the martial techniques of the area (Chen taiji also hails from Henan) so that traveling monks could protect themselves. Of course the focus on the absolute commitment to whatever being done resulted in the perfection of many of the martial techniques we generally consider Kungfu. These teachings of course spread over time & space.

WUDANG:
Wudang is a much harder nut to crack. Taoism certainly florished there, and the resident priests couldn't always be considers "monks." The easiest way to decern the difference would be in the rise of Taoist sexual methods. Unlike the Buddhist monks who where generally quite restrictive (in theory) with their diet, sexual practices (none?) and lifestyles, the Taoist sects where much more mellow. It's all part of the TAO after all. It's in this area where old school Shamanism, and Animism stayed strong and were retained & refined. With in the mythology there are even loose parrallels between the Taoist "pill of immortality" and psychodellic mushrooms... or the seeds of the Bon Po (the Shaman of tibet).

The Yin-Yang that I'm sure we've all seen...
is actually called the Tiaji. this is very much a Taoist symbol.

Taoist martial arts are both hard & soft. Contrary to popular belief A style like Chen Taiji is quite "hard." Not to mention other styles like Hsing Yi or Xingyi which are even harder. Then of course for the soft stuff there's Bagua, or Liu He Ba Fa (chinese water Boxing, probably the softest of the soft... usually only taught to women).

Alright... that's about it for now, next episode: O-mei Mountain home of eagle claw, Praying Mantis, and the 8 diagrams!!!
 
 
invisible_al
20:51 / 27.01.02
Please continue oh wise one

This is great stuff, just started Ti Chi and am in the 'a bit crap' stage. Cool to learn some background and the like.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
09:19 / 28.01.02
Yeah I've got one of those tai-chi necklaces. When I wear it I can walk up walls and shit.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:32 / 28.01.02
Thanks for the excellent info PATricky!

If there's anything more that you would like to expand upon I'm fairly confident you will have a captive audience.
 
 
ciarconn
09:32 / 28.01.02
Thank you all for this valuable knowledge
Both in this thread and in the Magical MA.

Thank you
 
 
Tamayyurt
14:01 / 28.01.02
ok, but, um, how do you fly?
 
 
The Planet of Sound
15:01 / 28.01.02
Well it sounds like magic mushrooms are involved; great! I was hoping psychedelics would be involved. Thanks, Patricky and Grant.
 
 
netbanshee
15:21 / 28.01.02
One also has to understand that many facets of hard and soft or internal and external are also linked to development of your art and understanding of it. My style is very hard and external but draws from and becomes very internal in understanding and expression. It's very apparant in the way people strike things for instance.

Also when referring to influence, don't be surprised if one martial art derives direction from others. There seems to be a great deal of borrowing depending on the ryu you're in. I study Goshin Jitsu which is very Japanese in the sense of structure but spending over a decade in it's space (active and non-active) you see Baugua, Kung-Fu, Qui-Gong, and Tai-Chi all over the place.

I guess it depends if you practice for the upholding of the expression of a particular style or if you intend to utilize it frequently. Like anything else, updating your narratives and not living in a bubble has it's benefits.
 
 
Zeada
19:36 / 29.01.02
wow...
What's Goshin-jitsu like?

is it closer to say Jujitsu?

than say... Shorin ryu?
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:28 / 06.02.02
Here's a different source for the Taoist Vs. Buddhist world-view...
 
 
Lionheart
04:33 / 09.02.02
SNAKE MONKEY STYLE!!!

When you realize that the universe has a basis of non-locality then you will be able to fly.
 
 
Zeada
19:33 / 09.02.02
huh?
 
  
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