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illmatic
11:21 / 02.09.04
I’ve been having a few ideas later about magic occurring in the context of a community, as opposed to it being the product of individual action. The starting point for this is thinking of sorcery/ sigilisation – one of the biggest problems people seem to have is that of “lust of result” or letting go of a desire. A route around this that sometimes gets suggested is that of getting someone else to enchant on your behalf It occurred to me that I don’t know many people who’ve actually done this, and I wondered why not? I think part of the reason might be if one takes this course it seems you actually surrender some degree of ego, that big “I made this happen” trip. (which is part of the point with Spare’s magick to me but that’s another subject). I

This in turn suggested the idea of looking at the way our magick is practiced in terms of networks of mutual support and friendship - “communities” – rather than as the sole product of individual agency. I’m sure where all familiar with the model of the tribal healer or shaman who provides services to a community. I wonder if this model is complex enough to deal with the way modern social groupings occurs – I’d suggest it’s more like loose networks of different practitioners with different interests/practices and so on. This in turn takes us to shared relations and intentions – actions of benefit to more than ME, the individual – and which cuts against the idea of the magician as the archetypal “outsider”, standing in opposition to society etc (all the “black clad, doom laden” stuff that’s been dissected here many times).

In terms of learning, creativity, personal practice etc. I think the benefits of some sort of social network are huge – we learn best from, and with, other people. Gysin and Burrough’s Third Mind idea spring to mind, for instance. In one of the groups I’m in one of the ideas we’ve been playing with is producing PDFs of material collectively with lots of different comments on the same exercise or practice. When x amount of people have varied results, it gets away from the idea of the “correct” interpretation – the one “authorial voce” which decides whether something is legit or not and I think this attitude encourages you to think for yourself about your own results, rather than trying to measure up to what Crowley said or some other internalised, imagined critic.

Some practical examples of what I’m talking about might help – it could be sorcery, it could be advice on meditation, dream interpretation, divination or other less specific forms of support. I think it might be interesting to discuss this idea. I think of Barbelith as a community in some ways, (although it lacks a lot on this score ie. the deeper links that come with share economic interests, “face time” etc – though some of my relationships with Barbeloids have progressed in this direction) - I ‘d rather post ideas on threads here, for instance, than a blog, because of the breath of responses I’d get (as well as being too bloody lazy to get one).

All this is a bit ill thought out, got a bit of a cold and am generally a bit dazed today, but I thought I’d throw the idea out there and see what comments people have to offer. Thoughts?
 
 
Skeleton Camera
13:38 / 02.09.04
I was the first person in my circle of friends to really get into magic and begin practicing it. I began sharing ideas and experiences and everyone's outlook has changed. Mind you, we're all artists at the moment, so getting into magical terrain is not THAT much of a leap. But introducing concrete ideas - "Hey, this stuff works!" rather than just using the occult as decor (which is very common) - genuinely transformed a lot of how we, as a group, thinks.
One friend is now fascinated by sigils and symbol systems. Another got hooked on Promethea, took up the Kabbalah and Tarot, and it transformed his entire outlook. Now he's fusing it with his drawing and death-metal performances to come up with something BIG. Another, long enraptured with spooky imagery but too self-conscious to practice magic, is beginning to take the first steps! Exciting stuff.

On a practical level, ie doin' work for other people, I've done a number of sigils and spells for folks without letting them in on it. Not randomly, but spinning off things they themselves have mentioned. And these have worked fairly well. I have yet to drag everyone/anyone into group rituals. And mentioning helpful magic to a person's face has generally met with confusion and a bit of fear. "But...yea? I don't know..."

(must run. more later)
 
 
--
02:30 / 03.09.04
I think both areas of magic (that is, practiced by an individual or practiced by a group) both have their pros and cons. Neither has a great advantage over the others in my opinion.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
03:32 / 03.09.04
I don't see the question of "community" as necessarily one of practicing magic with or without a group. What's greater is the role of the magician in the community-at-large. Whether or not you're practicing Magick with your community, your magic is still affecting them and they, in turn, are informing it (through their effect on you).

One of the challenges, oft-discussed, re: taking on the role of magician is finding a community that supports what you're doing. This doesn't mean (necessarily) one that is right there in the circle with you. It can also be one that pats you on the back and says "yea, you're weird, but we like it and keep going," one that feeds you ideas intentionally, or one that recognizes your importance in the larger community structure.

And a lot of it depends on what you're willing to give out. Comparable, I suppose, to be socially accepted in any given paradigm (both that of your own and that of the society around you). You have to give out at least as much support as you're expecting in return and hopefully more - there's no real need to "be in a community" unless you intend to contribute something. If it's soley for your own support, your one-sidedness will run you dry very quickly.

What this MEANS as a self-identified magician is complicated - and I'm assuming, for this discussion, that you're using your magical talents to enter and interact with the community. The Mercurial dance moves you between various roles and positions in the community - makes you hard to pin down but also very accessible and helpful. A distinct advantage for you and an appealing one for your fellow folks.
Your "magical talents" need not be overt, either. There is always the underground work - performing needed spells without letting on that you're doing so - and there is using the flows of energy or presence or spirit - whatever that STUFF, the POWER, is that you can work with - to communal advantage on a practical basis. If you are, say, strong in the divination dept., start applying your skills to practical and open activities. I don't know if that makes any sense, but you don't need a crystal ball to...use old cliches. I mean, to see things coming. And that clairvoyance will often be taken in stride rather than seen as anomalous.

Just my experience and ruminations. Other thoughts, bitte?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:41 / 03.09.04
Great post, Seamus. I've got quite a few thoughts on this subject, as its something quite important to my practice. Not sure when I'll get the chance to write it all up though.
 
 
illmatic
13:25 / 03.09.04
Yup, great post, Seamus. You're defintely touching on some of the areas I was thinking about.

I'm putting a link in with the Ecomagick thread as there seem to be a lot of related posts in there.

I was discussing this thread last night with Absence of Gravitas, and there's loads of areas to cover potentially - the idea of the "outsider", evolution of social norms in groups, status relationships, parallels to these ideas with queer communities etc. Haven't got the head space to come back to do it today (new computer system at work making my brain explode arrgghh) but will come back to it in the next few days.
 
 
--
23:22 / 03.09.04
To elaborate a bit on the nature of the outsider, I've found, over the last few years, that my views on "outsider" and "community" have often interchanged quite often. In high school, the people I admired were the outcasts, the misfits, the goths and outsider types, even though I wasn't part of any cliques at that time junction. In those days I had the notion that most of society sucked and I'd rather be alone then try to fit in with people who repelled me. Oddly enough, in college I experimented with various subcultures and ended up joining the campus gay straight alliance, which opened me up to new experiences and interesting people... Like the 58 year old sex toy workshop granny who demonstrated how to use a vibrator with the aid of a vagina hand puppet named Veronica. Ah, college, how I miss it... However, as I've noted before on here it was an enjoyable experience and it made me rethink my stance on being an outsider. But then I got out of college and my views again changed somewhat.

Back on subject, when I was into the Invisibles I went through a very hippy phase where I thought all humans were united as one glorious whole, we're all one giant cosmic star baby, larval states, whatever. In retrospect this now seems to me a hopelessly niaeve and utopian viewpoint and I'm glad that Grant Morrison moved away from it in the Filth. I realized that the people who have inspired me most in my life are the people who, for some reason or another, indulged in their oddness and outsiderness. Their life stories seem way more interesting to me then any of these Shambala reading,yoga practicing pure mind enthusiasts. I'd imagine life would be very boring if one would constantly live in states of perfection and content. Besides, very often in native tribes the shaman was usually the crazy one with mental illness, so I think to a certain extent the outsider is necessary, the diversity generator that acts as the counter-balance to the conformity police, to cop a phrase from Howard Bloom. "Without it, we would be like angels, perfect, and as dull".

I suppose the trick is to find like-minded people. I'll be honest, I hate the community I live in and plan to move the hell out of it as soon as I can afford it! The bottom line is that a good majority of the population don't care about others, don't care about bettering themselves, don't care about the environment, don't care about making the world a better place. Working at a supermarket exposes you to the pettiness of the human race. I recall an incident at school years in which I saw a preppy girl stomping on caterpillars and laughing about it. Why should I care about these cruel fuckers? Let someone else help them, or better yet let them help themselves. If I use magic to help anyone it's only people I know or care about. Like a friend who needed some cash to start a new life in San Francisco. I planted a money sigil for him. Not sure if it worked, haven't heard from him in weeks so hopefully he's on his way.

ANYway, outsiders shouldn't stay inside too much (after all, they're outsiders, not insiders), and I think some outsider magicians lose the plot when they isolate themselves and don't get out more. Therefore, again, I think it's possible for one to cultivate an outsider status while at the same time exposing oneself to the steaming human soup, the cauldron of society, as people should expose themselves to other mind-sets/reality-tunnels. I mean, Dali was a tad crazy but he still managed to channel his insanity in such a way as to make a living, get married, meet many interesting people, and what not. I think one can actually learn a lot from outsiders, though that's not a popular opinion to some.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:50 / 04.09.04
I don’t know where to start. I’m going to have a cup of tea, calm down, and then try and respond to that...
 
 
Chiropteran
19:04 / 04.09.04
Sypha, you mention in another thread (*cough*) elsewhere on the board that you've developed a reputation for magickally tweaking electronics, yes? And people you know bring you stuff to fix? Plus there was that sigil for a friend's finances, was there not?

Happy hippy larval humanity or no, sounds like you're doing magick for your community.

Good job.

~L
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:03 / 04.09.04
In retrospect this now seems to me a hopelessly niaeve and utopian viewpoint and I'm glad that Grant Morrison moved away from it in the Filth.

I don’t think it is at all. You could say that it’s a biological fact that we are genetically connected to everyone else and everything else when considered from a position outside of time. I currently subscribe to the working model that all of life is a single organism with its roots in the primordial. I explain my thoughts on this better in the ecomagic thread so won’t repeat them again here, but it’s a big part of the outlook that informs my magic. I’d be interested in hearing precisely why it is you think I’m naïve. Also, not that I particularly give a shit either way, but I can’t recall there being anything in the Filth that explicitly indicated George moving away from this kind of perspective. If anything, I’d say the message of that book affirms it.

The Vonnegut/Flatland “timetree” model does not equate with some naïve hippy “we are all star brothers connected to eachother, maaaan” wankery. That’s just your idiotic misunderstanding of it. It’s like anything in nature. It can be messy, ugly, cruel and vicious, as often as it can be beautiful. You seem to be talking as if you think the physical connectivity of all beings leads automatically to some imagined utopian future, without any degree of hardship, pain or difficult work involved. It doesn’t. My jury is out on whether we are collectively in a “larval state” or not, but if evolution is an option it will not occur without a hard struggle. Them fishes didn’t grow legs and start breathing oxygen by sitting in their bedrooms at their mam’s house posting endless narcissistic fuckwitted missives about their tedious lovelife.

I'd imagine life would be very boring if one would constantly live in states of perfection and content.

I don’t even know what you’re fucking saying here. Are you presupposing that attainment of some kind of evolved or enlightened state would probably be really boring and unfulfilling anyway, and using that as an excuse not to actually do anything?

The bottom line is that a good majority of the population don't care about others, don't care about bettering themselves, don't care about the environment, don't care about making the world a better place… Why should I care about these cruel fuckers? Let someone else help them, or better yet let them help themselves.

Therefore joining the ranks of those who don’t give a toss about anyone but themselves and their needs, because it’s an easier option? Nice one. Operating from a perspective where all of life is a single organism does not have to lead to some fluffy happy clappy mindset. We’re not in the Polyphonic Spree. It leads to compassion. If someone is attacking me or fucking with me, the fact that I am connected to them, and part of the same larger organism, will not stop me from hurting them if that seems the most appropriate response. Any damage caused could be looked on as corrective, like when you injure yourself the pain doesn’t occur because your body hates you, its hurts to prevent you from continuing with activity that will cause more damage to you. Similarly, I might be being quite nasty to you in this post, but I’m also spending an hour of my Saturday night responding to your post from a general sense of compassion.

If I use magic to help anyone it's only people I know or care about.

That’s your community right there. Community starts with family and friends, the people you care about, and expands outwards as far as your social circle does. Your community is not some anonymous mass of people that is separate from you, it is something you are a part of, care about, and have a vested interest in. If you don’t give a shit about someone’s general welfare, then they are not a part of your community. Look the word up in a fucking dictionary. If you happen to a bit of a twat, then your community might only involve three people, but its still a community. I try to serve my community, but I’ve never felt the need to put an ad in the local paper advertising my services as such. I find that there’s always someone in my social circle with some situation going on that I could conceivably try and engage with on their behalf. I’m generally kept fairly busy.

Therefore, again, I think it's possible for one to cultivate an outsider status while at the same time exposing oneself to the steaming human soup

The archetypal shaman may be the mad guy with feathers in his hair who lives on the outskirts of the village, but what makes that person an effective shaman is the ability to move fluidly between worlds. The shaman is a hedgesitter, constantly mediating between “the village” and “the wilderness”, ordinary reality and non-ordinary reality. Belonging fully to neither of these worlds but with a passport to both of them.

Outsider status is not something that is cultivated or aspired to. A magician of my acquaintance pointed out recently how many magicians seem to have had some traumatic experience in their formative years that took them out of their school, and therefore normal society, for a bit, and from which they came back different. We both reported having gone through comparable experiences at a similar age, and both related that directly to what turned us into magicians. Aspirational it ain’t. You can’t be removed, go through horrible stuff, then be put back seamlessly as if nothing has happened. You find yourself set at a slightly different angle to everyone else. I do tend to think of myself as an outsider in a lot of ways, and sometimes I find interaction in ‘ordinary’ social situations as much of a magical excursion as interaction in… ‘non-ordinary’ situations. But that’s the thing. You have to earn the respect of the Spirits to be welcome in their world, but you also have to earn the respect of the community and be welcome in their world as well. The shaman is generally an outsider, but is capable of relating to the needs of his community, has an understanding of the everyday concerns of the village, and is an active and visible member of that world. Just as s/he is capable of journeying to strange dimensions, bargaining with Spirits, and being an active and visible member of ‘the other world’.

The ‘outsider’ aspect of being a magician/shaman tends to come with the territory. It’s got nothing to do with self-consciously cultivating a ridiculous clichéd image of yourself as being ‘different’ or ‘tragic’, wearing a black polo neck jumper, collecting weird out of print books, and having no mates.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
22:40 / 04.09.04
I'd imagine life would be very boring if one would constantly live in states of perfection and content[ment].

HA! This is part of the problem with such discussions - if you haven't experienced such a thing, it's extremely hard to discuss it. I don't exactly know how you're defining perfection and contentment, either - I feel fairly content right now. And that came from (finally) letting go all my ideals and neuroses and accepting what my life was. Enjoying things. Hurting. Going out and about and doing it without some self-vilifying Choronzon on my back.

And, in more mystical terms, I have experienced moments that align with descriptions of enlightenment - and they were anything but boring. Everything is glowing and somehow important; you have no fear; and above all you're just THERE. The horrid self-consumption of "How do I feel right now?" DOES NOT EXIST right then. Mind you, these moments are fleeting as beasts in the night, and I make no claims to anything but personal and idiosyncratic experience. However, whatever the nature of the thing, "boring" was never an issue.
 
 
--
04:06 / 05.09.04
First off, Gypsy Lantern, when I was referring to the star baby thing I was talking more about misguided hippy optimism/vague New-Agey philosophies and things of that nature. On a biological/genetic level I do think we're all connected, which is why I don't believe in violence as you're just hurting yourself. Hell, I think the end result of this universe will be the metamorphis into a giant eyeball-butterfly, but this is just based on the vision I had awhile ago and I'm not married to it. I am obsessed with the idea of evolution, I find the human body woefully inadequate for the future and yearn for the escape from the genetic prison random DNA forces on us, and I do have an interest in P-Orridge's view that the primeval slime is the "God" we originate from. I find the archean age fascinating. I actually do think larval stages factor in but occasionaly I like to challenge my cherished assumptions by assuming contradictory points of view. Otherwise one runs the risk of ending up with their head up their ass.

As for the Filth's refutation of the supercontext, I gently direct your attention to issue eight in which the survivors of the Libertania have reformed, sponge-like, into a group of robe-claded no-minded zombies. The idea that this is a rejection of the supercontext is not an original one, in fact it's been mentioned in the comics forum before. Actually, rejection may not be the right word, perhaps this is the perverted supercontext.

The indifference I've shown towards society may come off as laziness or taking the easy way out but I look at things from a practical level and I know that it is very difficult to truly help others when you can't even help yourself. I like to consider the Grail myth, how Percival cannot heal the wounded king (and thus heal the wasteland) until he heals himself. Therefore I think every individual magician must go on a type of grail quest themselves to know themselves and hail themselves so they can then cause change onto the world around them. I'm only 24... maybe some day I'll be in the position to make the world a better place but at the moment I still have other things to work through. I do my own small bit here and there... donations to environmental organizations, helping stray animals, saving the lives of insects... Actually now that I think of it I usually go out of my way in real life to be polite to strangers, even the ones that don't deserve it. Not that I'm a saint or anything. Right now the best way I can see myself making the world a better place is by trying to get books written and published, as I truly believe that art is one of the things that makes life worth living, and if I ever do anything that would inspire someone else I'd consider my life to be somewhat of a success.

My apathy stems from the fact that I wonder why so many other people out there would rather just grind through life without ever wondering why they're here, or why they believe every thing the news or their leaders say, or why they don't care about the environment or animal rights or anything like that. What's their excuse? I'm no different then them. I mean, I live in a small town, there's no real alternative scene (hell, not even a movie theater!), so I had to go out and seek out all this information and knowledge on my own. It's not like my parents urged me to do so, as they're catholics and would have preferred me to follow that path. But I came across all this information mostly through my own investigations and after I had been exposed to it all I knew I could never go back... Perhaps people choose to remain unknowing, or they prefer to not think from other viewpoints. It definetly makes life easier to get through, I'd assume. A lot of my apathy stems from frustration with the human race in general, I suppose.

As for walking between worlds and spirits and all that, I view art as something along those lines. The real world and the so-called fictional world, but I wonder if the characters I create are from my own imagination or if I'm receiving this all from something "outside", almost as if my body was an antenne (I've had some odd experiences with some of my fictional characters as of recently, but I won't get into that here). I suppose I've always felt more comfortable in the world of books and worlds, the world of the imagination. Because I'm slanted more in the favor of that world at the moment (rather then the "real" world) obviously I do not consider myself a shaman by a long shot!

When I talked about aspiring to outsiderdom I think I was trying to say that one should strive to explore things outside of the socially-accepted norms. I find it funny that you think you know so much about my life you can make these blanket assumptions about me. I would just like to clarify things here and say that I do have friends, though most of them are either online or college people I don't see all that much anymore.... Fortunetly in the last few weeks or so I've been branching out more meeting new people so I find myself excited for the first time in a long time. As of recently my challenge has been trying to adapt to a new job and trying to fit myself around it. Excuse me if I've been having trouble finding ways to break out of my twatdom, but I've been very busy. Ironically a big part of all my neurosis is the fact that every day I find myself in social situations in which I continuously have to conform to other people's expectations of me, and everyone expects me to be this mild, quiet little polite nobody. This wouldn't be as unbearable were I to have some kind of social outlet for my peculiarities, but at the moment I don't. But this is something else I'm slowly working on.

Seamus, regarding enlightenment being boring, I was referring more to the drones of "healthy-living" all-smiling zen-zombies whose books I see daily at my place of employemnt. People who smile all the time and are constantly at peace make me suspicious. I think denial is a factor and, while these people may of gone through great pain to reach a stage of "enlightenment", I don't believe there's such a thing as reaching some kind of plane and, upon reaching there, saying "Okay, I'm content now, no more struggles for me!" I tend to view life as a series of initiations, basically, and I don't care if someone knows how to open all their chakras or do all these fancy Yogi things. I would be impressed if they could rain penguins from the sky, however.

Of course, you could look at what I'm saying here and think "Oh, he's just saying all that because he's jealous he's never been in a state of bliss". Perhaps there's some truth to that. I will tell you that two years ago or so I was meditating in the campus library and afterwards I felt this odd sensation in which I felt like I was floating on clouds as I walked: By this I mean I felt completely clear-headed, at peace with everything around me, serene. It's nothing like the dizzy light-headed spells that bother me as of recent, but I had never felt more at peace. But ever since that day I've never been able to replicate that experience, which is why I quit meditation awhile ago due to frustration. I wish I remembered what I did that day.... However, a big part of me fears that, were I to not be in a constant state of emotional turmoil and physical pain that my creativity would suffer. I know this brings to mind the cliche of the "artiste" who can only create when in states of pain or emotional upheaval. You're probably right though. How can I possibly comment on it? I can't even imagine my life without pain. And by pain I don't mean just emotional pain, I'm talking about actual physical pain, though most of it is most probably due to tension/psychosomatic symptoms. Don't think I'm spoiled... I know there are people out there in way worse physical pain who actually do have something wrong with them. Trust me, I feel bad for them. Pain sucks. I also will say that periods of enlightenment aren't boring... My own vision was quite interesting from an evolutionary point-of-view.

I feel hesitant posting this, as I know everyone will just file it under "Oh, look, another typical long ranting self-pitying screed", but a lot of questions have been asked and I must answer all of them and I'm simply stating what I see to be facts. If I discuss my own life a lot it is only because I can only write from my own experience and no one elses, and I do this to illustrate my points. If it annoys you so much just question me by PM whatever and save the board's bandwidth!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:24 / 05.09.04
I know everyone will just file it under "Oh, look, another typical long ranting self-pitying screed"

No shit. Can we start talking about notions of community again, and not the Syph’s emotional pain? Any blanket assumptions I seem to be making about your life are based only on the endless pages of poorly written self indulgent thread rot you bombard otherwise interesting conversations with on a regular basis. I gently direct your attention to the topic abstract.
 
 
Char Aina
11:27 / 05.09.04
I'm simply stating what I see to be facts.

do you take speed?
amphetamine sulphate?

you have that 'talking endlessly about yourself in a way only tenously connected to the point' thing going on that many people on speed do.

not to say it aint interesting, but you shoud structure it into another thread or two. its about the right word in the right place, not the right word wherever it can be stuck.




(i dont even know if i would ask 2 cents for it...)
 
 
---
00:59 / 06.09.04
As for the Filth's refutation of the supercontext, I gently direct your attention to issue eight in which the survivors of the Libertania have reformed, sponge-like, into a group of robe-claded no-minded zombies.

I don't think this seems to be the case, even after looking at it. It seems like it's touching on the fact that the Anti-People, the robed zombies or whatever, are part of a future step in evolution that has been brought into existence at the wrong time. They are Anti-People because they are a unified whole and no longer 'people'. Maybe one-minded instead of no-minded. This can then lead to a completely different set of ideas about what Anti-People actually are. (but not in this thread, obviously.)

Besides, very often in native tribes the shaman was usually the crazy one with mental illness,

You could be getting confused here with the fact that certain forms of mental illness can be a good indicator of a potential Shaman, and not that a learned Shaman is usually the crazy one.

Therefore, again, I think it's possible for one to cultivate an outsider status while at the same time exposing oneself to the steaming human soup

You should really think about the word 'status' here, what it means to you, and the possible obstacles that could be in your path if your spending time thinking about and trying to cultivate a 'status' and not concentrating on more important and immediate concerns.

But ever since that day I've never been able to replicate that experience, which is why I quit meditation awhile ago due to frustration.

No, because you won't ever be able to perfectly replicate that experience, but if you let it go and started meditating again you'll probably be able to move onwards to even better ones. It sounds like it was a really good experience, but by clinging to it and trying to replicate it you could just end up winding yourself up and associating it with negativity and the attempts to reproduce it rather than the positive thing that it was.

I wish I remembered what I did that day.... However, a big part of me fears that, were I to not be in a constant state of emotional turmoil and physical pain that my creativity would suffer.

If you end up staying in a constant state of emotional turmoil and physical pain i doubt you'll be able to help yourself, never mind your community.

Meditating would probably help to heal you a lot, it's a shame that you've quit it over what you mentioned above. Especially with the potential it has for healing the problems you mention having. If you lose some of your pain it shouldn't make your life or creativity worse, it should help to make both of them better for you.
 
  
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