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Noticed given to you all about a thread that may cause upset

  
  

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Ria
23:43 / 02.09.04
good, I would like to move onto pastures new too.

I do have one thought to complete which relates to the big post above and I can copy and paste some of these thoughts in an article or essay.
 
 
Olulabelle
00:03 / 03.09.04
Ria,

If you do have something else to say, I would think twice about saying it.

I don't write this because I don't value what you have to say, but purely because moving onto pastures new would be good for everyone concerned and so if you really mean it then at some point (in order to actually move on) somebody has to be the one to say, "OK, Lets stop.".
 
 
Ganesh
00:20 / 03.09.04
OK, let's stop.
 
 
Ganesh
01:28 / 03.09.04
By which I mean, obviously

Fuck you, Ria. With a harpoon.

That is all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:09 / 03.09.04
what can the civilian do to restore the balance and restore some equality?

If you have a complaint against a specific doctor, we would advise you to contact the medical regulatory body in the country or state in question...
 
 
Ex
10:33 / 03.09.04
Or the 'civilian' could get involved in activist groups, organisations or publications that promote new ways of handling mental health in society, or challenge the standard therapeutic set-up, or help set up mutual support networks.
Although these won't immediately help with some things associated with psychiatry in this country - such as gatekeeping to genital surgery - I imagine they'd be quite useful, personally and for wider society.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
00:13 / 04.09.04
Has control of your fingers been taken over by some alien intelligence, Ria, or are you still capable of reason in judging just how inane, hurtful and far removed from reality your posts are? Why am I even asking the question? You're trolling, and to an obnoxious degree. with zero credibility. Try feeling some human emotions every now and then and see what insight feels like. But, then again, I can understand that this would be a painful experience for you. Ever spent any time trying to learn about boundaries or personal responsibility? I can understand that it's much easier just to blame everybody else, particularly people you've never met who actually have no influence on what happens in your own life, for your shitty situation but it's not the way to navigate through a happy and fulfilled personal life. You've got one shot at it, spend the time making this life as joyful and as attuned to your own goals as it can be and stop bitching about other people's (perceived) shortcomings.
 
 
Olulabelle
00:19 / 04.09.04
What the lovely Xoc said.
 
 
Char Aina
13:48 / 04.09.04
fuck, ria. quite apart form your apparent inability to understand that people are not their position, i wonder what your point is.
what is the pay off?
do you feel you are in some way making the world a safer place for lauren? or for stalkers of psychiatrists?




what can the civilian do to restore the balance and restore some equality?


what?
if you visit a doctor to get a broken leg set properly, do you need to redress the balance? what about when you are in court? do you need to redress that huge inequality between you and the magistrate?
do you tell your mother to eat her greens to redress the balance of mother and child?


one,
to lie a lot for no reason other than to lie and amuse themselves with
two,
to poke away at the professionals own weak spots and turn the experience into a game of sadomachism.
three,
you can take away that power by stalking them or by force.


so which is it you are doing?
and why?
and what the gibbering fuckstack are you going on about?


can't you just appreciate the occasional nob-gag and piss takery he contributes and forget about his job? fuck, you dont take me to task for my comments about drug use, despite the fact that i work on a nightclub door some nights of the week.
my drug use is not the same as the prohibition of drug use i partake in at my job. similarly, ganesh's opnions are not the same as his diagnoses.


what do you do, by the way?
apart from harrass people?
 
 
Ria
02:05 / 05.09.04
"If you have a complaint against a specific doctor, we would advise you to contact the medical regulatory body in the country or state in question."

that only works if

a) they have unambigously broken the law or professional ethics and

b) you can prove it.

as for Ex's suggestions, I already do those things and only hope that the number of people doing it increases.
 
 
Ria
02:09 / 05.09.04
Xoc, you don't know me. trust me, you have not told me anything that I have not told myself or that others have not told me. won't go on a self-justifying tirade here as neither of us would like to suffer through it. (well you might. it might give you further rope to use to hang me.)
 
 
Ria
02:31 / 05.09.04
"fuck, ria. quite apart form your apparent inability to understand that people are not their position, i wonder what your point is.
what is the pay off?"

I did not start off with a master plan in my mind. my mistake for spinning off some of the comments made by Ganesh into comments of my own.

as for not confusing people with their position I try to avoid the extremes of identifying a person with their position and also not identifying the person with the position at all.

it may help the mental stablility of the person doing the job to dissacociate their "true" self from the job-self. I don't have to live in their heads...

"do you feel you are in some way making the world a safer place for lauren? or for stalkers of psychiatrists?"

um, pass.

"what?

if you visit a doctor to get a broken leg set properly, do you need to redress the balance?"

you do if his idea of setting it properly involves sitting up on it and hitting you in the head with a hammer.

"what about when you are in court? do you need to redress that huge inequality between you and the magistrate?"

pass.

"do you tell your mother to eat her greens to redress the balance of mother and child?"

I would if the mother acted hypocritically and won't touch the greens herself.

"can't you just appreciate the occasional nob-gag and piss takery he contributes and forget about his job?"

would like to remind you and everyone else reading this that I did not just offense at one person.

of the number of people who contributed to the thread one of those posters, for a living, constructs hypothetical motivations and characterizations of people as a line of work. specifically people applying to go on hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery.

he made some posts about a transsexual in which elaborated on the posts of other people and speculated on the hypothetical motivations and characterization of a transsexual woman.

"fuck, you dont take me to task for my comments about drug use, despite the fact that i work on a nightclub door some nights of the week.

"my drug use is not the same as the prohibition of drug use i partake in at my job. similarly, ganesh's opnions are not the same as his diagnoses."

apples and oranges.

"what do you do, by the way?
apart from harrass people?"

not harass people.
 
 
Ria
03:00 / 05.09.04
oh yeah and Xoc, I don't blame Ganesh for shit in regards to me. ironic that you posted that because over the last twentyfour hours I have had insight into a few things not revealed to me before (which have nothing at all to do with the topics brought up on this thread).

but you know, the difficult part for me has historically had less to do with having insight than action, though in the case of today I have already.

will spare me the finishing part of what I started 'cause this doesn't seem like the right audience to the right place.

I erred in making this thread the place to write down some thoughts that I absolutely had to express.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:18 / 05.09.04
That hole you're in just keeps on getting deeper, Ria. I suggest that if you're not going to try and climb out of it, you at least put the spade down.
 
 
Mazarine
23:38 / 05.09.04
Or just get a blog. Livejournal. Whatever.
 
 
Char Aina
21:07 / 06.09.04
"what is the pay off?"

I did not start off with a master plan in my mind.


i was asking you what you saw as the possible positive outcomes of your actions, not whether you had planned the whole thing in advance. if there is noting to be gained, why bother? there is certainly much to be lost and i am not confident you are making a good trade.


you do if his idea of setting it properly involves sitting up on it and hitting you in the head with a hammer.


yeah. great.
except that is NOTHING LIKE what you were talking about.

you said
the psychiatric interview and relationship has built-in inequalities. (and we won't even get into the topic of professionals who "abuse" their relationship in some way.)

what can the civilian do to restore the balance and restore some equality?


"built in"
"lets not go into professionals who abuse... in some way"
"what...to restore the balance"

you were talking about the power dynamic inherent in any doctor/patient relationship. dont pretend you werent.
you gave three possible courses of action for a patient to take to alter that dynamic... none of them pleasant.

your example of setting legs with head-hammers is surely covered by your "and we wont even get into..." statement.

one of those posters, for a living..."

do you critique emails from friends who are writers?


"what do you do, by the way?
apart from harrass people?"

not harass people.

i meant for a job.
obviously.
but marks for wit, certainly.
took me a while to get that, it was so fucking clever.

so.
jobless no-hoper with a grudge against the world?
or is that just your online persona?
 
 
Ria
22:48 / 06.09.04
Sally, I do have a LiveJournal and no I do not fill it up with wall-to-wall rants.

"i was asking you what you saw as the possible positive outcomes of your actions, not whether you had planned the whole thing in advance. if there is noting to be gained, why bother? there is certainly much to be lost and i am not confident you are making a good trade."

like I said, I did not have a plan in mind.

I made a mistake in answering Ganesh on this thead.

as far as the point, I simply to tell off some people for juding people they did not know.

me: "you do if his idea of setting it properly involves sitting up on it and hitting you in the head with a hammer."

"yeah. great.
except that is NOTHING LIKE what you were talking about."

no from my POV. you came with the assumption that psychiatry helps (sets arms) and I do not.

"you were talking about the power dynamic inherent in any doctor/patient relationship. dont pretend you werent."

I understand your point.

however I think that medical doctoring has more legitimacy than the other kind.

"you gave three possible courses of action for a patient to take to alter that dynamic... none of them pleasant."

yes. I know. that list does not exhaust all posibilities and deals specifically with civilians who think that the system has wronged them or a loved one.

"your example of setting legs with head-hammers is surely covered by your 'and we wont even get into...' statement."

I disagree, I mean, I think you can abuse people and stay within the letter and even spirit of the law. depends on the law.

"do you critique emails from friends who are writers?'

probably not. we can both see the difference though. one affects the writer's saleablility if they carry it over into published work, the other may affect people living outside in the world.

"so.
jobless no-hoper with a grudge against the world?"

jobless. I do have a grudge and the world. the degree to which I have hope grows I learn from mistakes like the ones I have on this board.

you can give me shit for my out-of-work. really, though, from the vantage of another person you must seem just as sad as I do to you.
 
 
Mazarine
01:18 / 07.09.04
It really doesn't seem like making a judgement about someone based on what one sees in a documentary about them is much different than basing a judgment on someone based on 1. their profession and 2. the comments that you've seen them post on a web board. Ganesh doesn't know Lauren, but then, you don't know Ganesh. Ganesh didn't send (to the best of my knowledge) messages directly to Lauren, he just posted his opinions (and he has repeatedly pointed out that they are just his opinions) on an open forum.

You seem to think that people are going to take Ganesh's opinions as fact automatically because of his profession. I've really yet to read a thread that says, "Oh, Ganesh is a shrink, so he must be right."

Psychiatric professionals taught in different schools have different opinions and methods; Ganesh even mentions this in the "Little Lady Fauntelroy" thread, "would I have given the green light for going on to irreversible gender reassignment? Firstoff, I suspect it'd be a trickier judgment call than is necessarily apparent from the Little Lady Fauntleroy documentary." Ganesh never said "Oh, they did the wrong thing there, I would've done boppity boppity bah." He said right there that he's not sure what call he would have made as a professional if he were in the situation, and says that it's undoubtedly more complicated than what's seen in the documentary, which is what was being discussed.

You have an issue with psychiatry. Groovy. You said Xoc doesn't know you, however, you don't know Ganesh either, certainly not well enough to make decisions about whether or not he should be able to post his opinions as freely as the rest of us because you think that the fact that people here know what he does for a living enables his opinions to disproportionately affect our opinions. Ganesh is a really intelligent guy, which I can tell by reading his posts. But I don't know him.

One of the best things about Barbelith crappy argument will fall flat on its face here whether it comes from a psychiatrist, a professor or God. Ganesh doesn't have to be any more responsible with his opinions than anyone else on the board, because people are responsible to think when they read, and not just blanketly accept the word of any person who happens to be a doctor. We'd all own a lot of fucking toothpaste if we did that.
 
 
Char Aina
06:55 / 07.09.04
okay.
one more time.

i am not saying you had a plan, i am asking you what you see as the positive outcomes possible from a dialogue such as you have enetered into.

no one does something that is in no way beneficial for this long, do they?
surely you must think there is a good reason for continuing this?



really, though, from the vantage of another person you must seem just as sad as I do to you.

sure.
if it makes you feel better.
i'm a big silly and i am just as bad as you so its okay.
its only really bad if no one else is, right?

and when did i say sad, dude?
unhinged, perhaps.
improperly socalised, sure.
but sad?
doesnt there have to be an element of giving a fuck about you to find it sad?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:39 / 07.09.04
toksik, calm down and be quiet. You are perpetuating an increasingly pointless squabble.

I see no real reason for this thread to continue. Ria toned down her attack on Ganesh in the relevant thread, which had the side-effect of making her comments merely largely irrelevant rather than actively offensive. There are perfectly good places in the Laboratory, the Switchboard and the Head Shop to discuss different aspects of gender realignment and the interaction of the psychiatric profession. Where Ria went wrong was in sending abusive PMs to Ganesh in the first place, but Ganesh has not made an issue out of it. This pointless afterbirth of a thread has at least kept another (previously dead) thread largely ontopic, but that's no reason to continue it through the kind of pointless sniping we see above. Sally's post seems to me to wrap things up quite nicely from a Policy and Help point of view.

Toksik, Ria: There is an "anti-psychiatry" thread in the Head Shop. I suggest that, if you want to discuss the value of psychiatry, you do it there and better. There are also about a zillion threads on gender realignment/gender issues, from the current "Concerns regarding the lack of effectiveness of going transexual" to old classics like "genderfuck you".
 
 
Ria
15:37 / 07.09.04
Sally, I did not and do not judge Ganesh as a person. I judged his behavior.

and I will reiterate that I had a problem with all of the remarks made on those threads, regardless of who made them.

and I will reiterate that I made a mistake in replying to him on this thread when I might just as well have ignored him. some of the things he said just seemed to beg a reply from me, however foolish it seems in retrospect for me to have answered them.
 
 
Ria
15:51 / 07.09.04
that pretty much says it too, Haus. I do tend to go wiggy when the topic of psychiatry comes up.

as for toksik, he or she goes on my best avoid list... dude!
 
 
Ria
16:17 / 07.09.04
P.S.

yes, I did have improper socialization. I do what I can to overcome it.
 
 
HCE
23:24 / 08.09.04
I would like to add that I sent a PM to Ganesh with some hard-won if useless and inconclusive information about reviving drooping roses, and he never responded. I would like to make it clear that although almost everything I've ever posted here has been intended as a joke, that PM was not a joke, and I did in fact hope that my experiments in revivification would prove useful. Although this post is also a joke insofar as I am pretending to be offended, it is not a joke insofar as my PM to Ganesh genuinely was not a joke.

Thank you.
 
 
Char Aina
01:17 / 09.09.04
as for toksik, he or she goes on my best avoid list... dude!

well, that is easier than taking a long hard think about yersel, innit. it was never personal for me, and i am sorry if you have been offended by my brisk manner in confronting what i saw as ridiculous points being made unfairly. i will still continue to judge (and maybe even respond to)your individual posts on their merits.
thanks for your time.


toksik, calm down and be quiet. You are perpetuating an increasingly pointless squabble.

point taken, dude.


This pointless afterbirth of a thread has at least kept another (previously dead) thread largely ontopic, but that's no reason to continue it through the kind of pointless sniping we see above.

it isnt?
thats prolly true now, if not before.
i am willing to let it go.
wasnt really my issue to start with, i guess.
 
 
Char Aina
01:20 / 09.09.04
oh, and i should make the point that i say dude to anyone, male or female.
just in case you were wondering, ria... dude.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:43 / 09.09.04
Please let that be an end to it all now. Otherwise I'll be tempted to get my big pointy 'lock thread' stick out, which'll then result in somebody starting a "Why was the 'thread that may cause offense thread' locked?" thread, which I'll inevitably then post to telling the thread starter not to be such a trollish prick, which'll then result in me being called a crypto-fascist, and so on until there's a mass Barbelith members/own arseholes collision event.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:24 / 09.09.04
point taken, dude.

Then why are you continuing to seek attention and perpetuate an argument which you are as now trying to make about you and Ria? Stop talking about how ready you are to let it go and let it go.

Dupre - I am absolutely in favour of locking this thread. It is contributing nothing of value, and anything likely to be added to it now belongs in the Conversation, in a new thread, possibly entitled "He's not worth it, Darren". In fact, I think the request is going in now.
 
  

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