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Troll warning

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:50 / 30.08.04
Hi all,

This is just a quick notification – user number 4328, currently called “the cat’s iao”, is the troll formerly known as Modzero. Modzero was kicked and banned from the board having attempted to get his own way through spamming, harassing behaviour, illegal use of sock puppet multiple suits and generally being a pain.

He returned as “the cat’s iao”, deceitfully. Shortly after his arrival, he was rumbled as being Modzero after an attempt to start a fight here. This is not the first time he had attempted to attack other members under cover of the Creation – see here.

After having been IDed, the hope was that he would be sufficiently circumspect to avoid forcing the moderators of Barbelith to enforce the previous decision to keep him off Barbelith. This was to an extent successful – his attempt to keep a low profile led to his posts being largely pointless and inconsequential rather than offensive. However, there have been slips, and the slips have been occurring more frequently – it seems an ability to recognise boundaries has not been repaired, only briefly replicated by a desire to avoid censure. See here, here here and here for him starting to pick fights with some of the people previously respionsible for cleaning up, discussing and moderating the spamgasm that got him banned.

Regrettably, having been banned from the board, the bar on what constitutes acceptable behaviour for Modzero must perforce be set rather lower.

Tom has been notified of his presence. While this is sorted, the usual modus trollerandi applies. Avoid engagement unless necessary. Do not give away any personal details – your own or those of other people. Bear in mind that any contact is a potential attempt either to confuse, harass or recruit you, and act accordingly. How to deal with posts you find is at the moment a matter of individual choice – bear in mind, however, that Modzero has already been banned from Barbelith. Until that changes, any post that is allowed to remain is an act of kindness. Bear in mind also, of course, that trolls will generally interpret kindness as weakness and attempt to exploit it.
 
 
Ganesh
20:56 / 02.09.04
Hmm. I thought the somewhat 'do you see?' approach seemed familiar...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:38 / 03.09.04
It was pretty obvious from the start. As usual, the advice is that the best way to avoid being kept off the board because you are a troll is not to behave like the troll who got banned. Unfortunately, trolls generally revert to type; I imagine that right now the boy is throwing out PMs and contributing to various threads in order to win sympathy, make friends and thus complicate the next set of boringos sock puppet fights when/if he gets banned again.

The tragedy is, it actually didn't have to be that way. He was offered a second chance by Tom, which he declined at the time and is declining again:

I spent quite a long time talking with Mod, explaining that if he had any legitimate concerns that he wanted to talk about that he could talk to me directly and I would look into it, but he refused to take up that offer, chosing instead to start contacting people left right and centre with a 'revolutionary' agenda which basically consisted of writing shit everywhere and pissing everyone off. After I specifically asked mod to cool things down for a few days, he promised that his suit would be 'dead' for at least three days. During this time, I was forwarded correspondence that during this time he was just writing posts, getting other people to put them online (I might be wrong in this - but I believe sentience's thread was one of these) and continue to try persuade people to join in with his little campaign of rampant infantilism.

I made it clear the other day that I wasn't going to let this board be hijacked, blackmailed or pressured by people name-calling, trolling and spamming, and I meant it. I'll let the members concerned back on the board when they've apologised honestly for their behaviour and demonstrated that they're able to act even vaguely like adults.


Sadly, his feelings of righteousness are more important to him than apologising to Tom and Barbelith and trying to get a clean slate by some means other than stealth and deceit. It's a shame, but it's not really our problem.

Of course, that statement was made just before several pages of terrible false moustaches and "ooh! It's just like NAZIS", so perhaps it was overtaken by events even then...
 
 
bio k9
22:14 / 09.09.04

Oh, look! Our friends, the mice.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:24 / 10.09.04
I have no idea what that means, but it makes me gaggingly, achingly happy.

Micles!

Tiny micles!

Ahem. Sorry. Stern face.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
08:17 / 11.09.04
I have no idea what that means, but it makes me gaggingly, achingly happy

I think the reference is perhaps that "We will fix it!". Actually, thinking about it, having mice - or micles if you prefer - to fend off board trolls is the obvious answer really. Why on earth didn't we consider this before?
 
 
Seth
12:41 / 12.09.04
The Alchemy obsession gave the game away a long time ago. My approach was, "Wait and See," but then I'm a big softy.
 
 
Grey Area
15:54 / 12.09.04
I actually own that box...it's a cute way of scaring someone. If it would help fend off trolls, I could equip it constantly while on-board, although typing with three fingers encased in mouse would be awkward.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:17 / 16.09.04
Boy's not learning.

It doesn't seem that Modzero is able to understand his situation, or the need for him to behave decorously within it. As such, I'm afraid we're probably going to have to be ready to do something to deal with it, or else we're sending out a message that trolls can be banned, come back without apologising and start trying to select the same targets again.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:21 / 16.09.04
Post's gone. Probably for the best.

Do we have a solid policy on all this yet? What's the best approach?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:41 / 16.09.04
Look I'm not just going to float around deleting people's posts because they've been banned and have appeared again unless those posts are individually offensive or generally people agree that it's the right thing to do. I don't mind a collective opinion and I'll go with it but this is off atm. I want some indication that trolls are actually going to be banned again before I start deleting everything they write. I don't believe in half arsed censorship- if a troll comes back we should leave them be or kick them out instead of some lame witch hunt in a policy thread. And no I'm not supporting modzero. So are we banning him again or not?
 
 
Ganesh
13:51 / 16.09.04
Good luck getting a definitive line from Tom. It usually takes time...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:33 / 16.09.04
Precisely - that's kind of a problem. In the meantime, all we have is where it was left:

I spent quite a long time talking with Mod, explaining that if he had any legitimate concerns that he wanted to talk about that he could talk to me directly and I would look into it, but he refused to take up that offer, chosing instead to start contacting people left right and centre with a 'revolutionary' agenda which basically consisted of writing shit everywhere and pissing everyone off. After I specifically asked mod to cool things down for a few days, he promised that his suit would be 'dead' for at least three days. During this time, I was forwarded correspondence that during this time he was just writing posts, getting other people to put them online (I might be wrong in this - but I believe sentience's thread was one of these) and continue to try persuade people to join in with his little campaign of rampant infantilism.

I made it clear the other day that I wasn't going to let this board be hijacked, blackmailed or pressured by people name-calling, trolling and spamming, and I meant it. I'll let the members concerned back on the board when they've apologised honestly for their behaviour and demonstrated that they're able to act even vaguely like adults.


I was inclined to leave him be as long as he successfully didn't start stirring or picking fights. Unfortunately, he has not been smart enough even to do this - he's created a situation where we have to deal with it. I warned him several times that he was making it impossible for him not to be treated as a troll. He is apparently unable to comprehend the idea that he has been banned, and was only allowed back on unmolested because we were being nice. Regrettably, he appears to have decided that this means we are weak, and intends to take advantage of it.

It's a real shame, but we do have a modus operandi for dealing with people who have been banned and sneak back in with a new fictionsuit, then make it impossible for us to ignore the fact that they are the banned party. We minimise their ability to interact with Barbelith, usually by deleting their posts where it will not damage the integrity of threads irreparably, until Tom is in a position to take further action. As such, right now, since Modzy has demonstrated again that he is not able to shake his obsession with me and other posters, I am treating his posts as, within those structures, fair game for moves to delete. Of course, if my brother and sister moderators don't agree with this, and choose not to agree the deletions, or only to delete or move to delete when they find a post of his that is insulting or abusive, that's entirely their choice.

However, let's not piss around. Modzero/Godog/the cat's iao *is* banned - it just happenes that the login name he is using has not yet been shut out of Barbelith. In the absence of a "ban user" button, I as a moderator am happy to use those powers I do have to enforce this ban, by removing his unwanted presence from threads and from the board, until either Tom is in a position to add this login name to the other login names that have been banned because they belong to him, or M/G/tci decides to apologise to Tom and start behaving like he means it, or Tom tells us to act in another way when confronted with banned posters sneaking back in with false moustaches.

That's pretty much where we are now. Again, I hoped this thread would give him an incentive to calm down, but he is not emotionally equipped to cope with any sort of moderation from within himself, and as such moderation has to be supplied from without. That's us.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:44 / 16.09.04
Look I'm not just going to float around deleting people's posts because they've been banned and have appeared again unless those posts are individually offensive or generally people agree that it's the right thing to do.

That's pretty much where I am right now. I'm agreeing deletions if the post itself is offensive, otherwise not. Apart from anything else, "salting the earth" can make conversations other users were innocently having incomprehensible.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:31 / 16.09.04
I'm agreeing deletions if the post itself is offensive, otherwise not.

Yeah, that's one approach--tho' of course if we get rid of the offensive posts and leave the innocuous ones behind, this leaves us open to yet another chorus of "But what's he actually done that's so terrible? Who will the evil moderators silence NEXT?! Will I be SILENCED for SPEAKING OUT?!!!1!!! ect ect." I find my ability to give a toss wanes with every spin of that particular B-side, but I thought I'd mention it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:07 / 16.09.04
Well we'll direct those people to the wiki and if they don't shut up we'll ignore them. Which should be our general approach to losers.
 
 
Ganesh
18:11 / 16.09.04
Good luck, Anna.
 
 
Bed Head
03:06 / 17.09.04
What I’m afraid I don’t understand about this is *why* modzero would come back at all. Having upset other users and the owner of Barbelith to the degree that he is banned and can only ever sneak in by pretending to be someone else, and seeming as he does to hold the view that all that’s wrong with this place is the people who post here, then why wouldn’t he just go to *another* board? Why try to stay here? What’s it for? Any attempt at ‘the internet isn’t big enough for the two of us’-type duelling he keeps trying to draw Haus (and others, but it mainly seems to be Haus he’s obsessed with) into is just absurd. The internet is big enough. There’s plenty of space for everyone, and probably lots of forums where he can teach them the arcane secrets behind Musical Tag and they’ll all worship him like he deserves. All night long.

So, anyone want to nominate alternative boards he might be happy on? Not to offload a problem poster in a nasty way, just in the interests of finding somewhere he might feel more comfortable. Somewhere he can ruuule.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
06:40 / 17.09.04
Look I'm not just going to float around deleting people's posts because they've been banned and have appeared again unless those posts are individually offensive or generally people agree that it's the right thing to do.

Most simply banning actually has to mean something. It means nothing if you can be back in effect inside 24 hours, or even less for that matter. If you ban someone it basically means that nothing should come through. If you don't then all you are creating is a vaguely selective ban on offensive posting, which is practically worthless unless you can ensure an on the minute response time.

Plus, there is pretty much already a ban on offensive posting which is responded to based on the level of offense and density of posting.

It's already been proven that on the minute response times are more or less impossible and also cannot relate to PMs etc. Further to this it can reasonably be understood that there are rules here on barbelith, albeit undefined ones, which trolling is in direct voilation of. Therefore, given the two above points, I would recommend that mods adopt a strategy of penal measures. In the case of modzero I would suggest that a fixed term suspension be applied. It might be that mods find this an uncomfortable measure but it needs to be looked at in the interests of the board as well.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:57 / 17.09.04
Plus, of course, there's the fact that part of the reason that the board is still closed to new members is because of this shithead. So, y'know, there's something a little sickening about the fact that he's still being allowed to post.

Not to mention the way that this is turning into a blow-by-blow re-enactment of the whole sorry Knodge affair.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:09 / 17.09.04
I think the question we have to ask here is: although the banning of someone from Barbelith may subsequently lapse as a result of nothing more sinister than entropy, do we want to actively encourage that process? I could almost understand it if people were saying "I don't think it's been sufficiently demonstrated in public that the cat's iao is modzero" or "I never agreed with the decision to ban him in the process so I'm not going to help maintain that now", but I can't get my head round the idea that if people think it is him, and he was banned fairly, then we shouldn't take the action necessary to prevent that becoming meaningless. Moderators have a 'skip' button if you don't want to play an active role in that process. But if you accept that the cat's iao is modzero, disagreeing with such deletion requests surely sends the message that you're happy to help banned members return to the board for no other reason than that time has passed...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 17.09.04
In the case of modzero I would suggest that a fixed term suspension be applied. It might be that mods find this an uncomfortable measure but it needs to be looked at in the interests of the board as well.

Fair enough, but a) we don't need to apply a fixed-term suspension- Modzero, using any of his multiple suits, has alreasy been banned,. The parole has been established - he is not welcome until he has apologised to Tom and demonstrated that he is willing to behave like an adult, neither of which has happened, and possibly neither of which will now be enough, since that offer was made before he carried on spamming and breaking into the board using multiple suits - that I just don't know. Also, b) we don't have the means to apply suspensions, that is suspend people's access to their logins - only Tom (and Cal) have the means to do that, by changing login passwords. The only thing moderators can do to discourage trolls is to delete their posts and limit their success in engaging further with the board. Until I hear different, that's my plan for dealing with the symptom until Tom is available to deal with the cause.

Bed Head: That's a very good question. One answer is that he is an idiot. I think he sincerely believes that if he just keeps ignoring rules he does not feel apply to him, and harrassing and insulting those who attempt to enforce them or dared to disagree with him until they don't want to log into Barbelith any more, he will in the end get his own way and make Barbelith his own little IcDU play palace. It worked on Lothar Tuppen and others, and would quite possibly have worked on me if it hadn't been for the support and general loveliness of Tom and the vast majority of Barbeloids.

Ultimately, Modzero wants special treatment. He wanted to be able to troll, harrass, spam and use multiple suits without consequence, and now he wants to be able to start again despite being banned. If you feel that he deserves special treatment, that's one thing. I tend towards the idea that everyone on Barbelith should be subject to the same rules.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:42 / 17.09.04
Damn I just wrote a really long post that was eaten by SQL warnings.

For me it really goes like this. I refuse to be locked in a game that utterly disrupts my time and enjoyment on this board. And that's basically what you're suggesting here- that we spot posts and delete them regardless of a number of factors- continuity, the reaction of people who are new or old, offense caused etc. I currently enjoy barbelith and I'm not ruining it for myself by interacting in the most ludicrous way with someone out to screw up the board when that same person, that troll could be banned again right now and not re-enter the board because we aren't open to new users anyway.

I am not engaging in a form of self-flagellation where I chase a terrorist around in circles until someone from on high steps in, too late and bans said terrorist. That sounds ridiculous and mind numbingly boring and we will only be entrapping ourselves to the situation that we always end up in, Modzero will get worse because we provoked him. If he has no rights than we shouldn't need to chase him in circles because he should be banned. That's it. So what we should be doing is demanding that he is banned now, not deleting every little thing that he says. If we can't ban him than I want to know why. Is barbelith... broken? Is barbelith... flaky?

The point here is that Modzero doesn't deserve special treatment thus I am not going to treat him like he's special.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:53 / 17.09.04
Tom's busy, essentially. In the meantime, if you don't want to get invovled, don't get involved. I would ask you not to gainsay delete requests unless you believe deletion would destroy the sense of a thread, however. As Flyboy says, there's a "skip" button. Modzero's contributions rarely have any worth or connection. Where they do, such as the "What makes a terrorist" thread starter, common sense suggests leaving them in, but otherwise I'm relying on the fact that there are enough moderators to make cleaning him up pretty labour-unintensive. Until the ban is either enforced or reconsidered, this seems the most sensible course of action.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:10 / 18.09.04
Tom's busy. And there's the problem...
 
 
Cat Chant
08:12 / 18.09.04
Haus - agreed.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:08 / 18.09.04
Hey guys. Sorry to be a pain. This is clearly a situation that can't continue. I gave Modzero a very simple way of returning to the board, all he had to do was accept that he'd behaved badly and apologise to the board and try and act responsibly in the future. He's clearly not done that a number of times, and until he does so as far as I'm concerned everything he does on the board is a further illustration of his disregard for the board.

I know it's a difficult situation for you all to have to deal with and that playing whack-a-mole isn't the most reasonable way to expect you all to behave. I'm also sorry that I can't be on the board as much as I used to be to deal with these situations. In this case, I'm just going to ban ModZero to resolve the situation and if he/she doesn't like it, then they know what they have to do - either sod off, or play nice.
 
  
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