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HGA' s - What Are They And Are They Needed???

  
 
macrophage
09:56 / 24.08.04
I have read specifically somewhere that the HGA - Holy Guardian Angel- exists as a censor that operates from the right brain. What do people reckon to that? That is, if we follow the theory that the right brain follows the holistic – spacial non - verbal model not usually available to the usual average mind. This idea follows on from Ray Sherwin and I think Frater UD that at that moment of someone’s time track that people inclined to more spiritual paradigms can unconsciously adopt archetypes that can act as censors or self-appointed mentors or as spirit-guides, in regards to animist currents. Now some people also say that the HGA doesn’t need to exist, as it is becoming obsolete. Indeed I am of the opinion that HGA’s can act as disposable goods, different strokes for different folks. That is, now information is accelerating faster and faster, the mystical HGA shares metaphorical status with say an operating system that runs the whole computer. There is one thing that is constant in the world and that is change. The HGA can mirror monotheist-culture, but then why have one when you can have as many as you like? The power of a phantasm, clairaudience, clairvoyance, etc. can hypnotise ourselves into ongoing belief shifts (speculating on HGA experience). So in modern materialist-quantum terms the HGA acts as a memeplex, we could learn from – within a positive fashion. Indeed what can we make of the so-called temporary lobe epilepsy similarities with any supraliminal contacts. Do we who practice mental disciplines such as yoga, self-hypnosis, magick, sigils, etc. open the doors to expanding our minds, or would your average person (if one so exists) think that we are stupid for walking between the worlds, whereas we like to paint ourselves as brave? What does everybody else think?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:14 / 24.08.04
I think I'm too busy at the moment to wade through the mass of seemingly arbitrary assumptions in your post to give you my thoughts on the subject.

The HGA as a right brain censor?

The right brain not usually accessible to the normal mind?

Spirit guides in animist cultures acting as psychic censors?

HGA's as disposable goods?

Information accelerating faster?

HGA as operating system?

If you don't mind me asking, have you achieved knowledge and conversation of your Holy Guardian Angel and come to these conclusions based on personal experience, or is it all just speculation based on a bunch of stuff you've read on the internet?
 
 
Samael
14:35 / 24.08.04
Even if it is just speculation, why not? When considering any text or information related to communication with the Holy Guardian Angel (or just about anything in regards to thelema, spirituality, you name it) one of the first things that pops up in my head is the question: "Says who?" Perhaps one thing to consider in regards to the holy guardian angel is the approaches to communication with it. Crowley and the rest of the old fancy pantsers were merely setting down guidelines, imho, guidelines which can be improved upon, and which should evolve according to whosoever is using them.

Now then, on the main gut of the topic, do we need "it" here at the start of the 21st century. Depends on who you are and what you want and what you believe. Sounds like a crap answer, but what other answer can there be?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:18 / 24.08.04
Crowley and the rest of the old fancy pantsers were merely setting down guidelines, imho, guidelines which can be improved upon, and which should evolve according to whosoever is using them.

Absolutely. But I'm more interested in reading the experiences of people who've worked with it extensively, have connected up to it, know what they are talking about, and can discuss the subject with some confidence. As opposed to people who haven't really worked with the material. Hence my question.

In my opinion, the suggestion that we no longer need the HGA in the 21st century can only be answered from experience. Have you worked Abramelin, or version thereof, achieved knowledge and conversation, and come to the conclusion that its not an experience valid to 21st century living? If the answer to that is yes, I'd be interested in hearing why that is. I havent performed that operation, so my jury is out. But if you just, say, came up with the idea over a spliff and reckoned it was a cool idea, but havent actually done the work - then I think that should be clarified. I came up with a cool new way of performing open heart surgery when I was drunk the other day, fancy trying it? Similarly, the suggestion that having only one HGA is outdated, and that our ultra-futurist memeplex consciousness deserves an HGA for all seasons, is a tad crass if its coming from someone who hasn't actually attained knowledge and conversation of one HGA, and therefore doesnt personally have the first hand experience necessary to make a call like that with any degree of credibility.

I'm not dissing the first poster, I just want a better idea of who I'm talking to and what exactly they're basing their speculation on. You can speculate wildly on this subject all you like, but I'm not really interested in reading stuff that isn't based on experience. I mean, if you're going to spend time coming up with cool theories about stuff that you havent done and posting them on the internet, perhaps that time could be better spent actually doing the work. So you can share your research from a point of experience, rather than empty theory. I'm not saying the first poster fits into this category, just asking them if they do.
 
 
illmatic
09:06 / 25.08.04
Macrophage: I’ve linked to this article before, which you may find interesting. The most telling point for me is this:

Yet it must ever be remembered that the personal experiences and experiments of any magician are generally unique and rarely, if ever, identical with those of others. For - this reason they are presented as a guide to reveal the principles involved and less importance is attached to the details.

Any experiences I’ve had have been like that – out of the blue, unexpected and out of line with my preconceptions. I find that a lot of the differing ideas in your post don’t really speak to me. For instance, the psychic censor – this idea is derieved from the early works of Pete Caroll and Ray Sherwin (funnily enough, it doesn’t show in Caroll’s later work), but as it doesn’t tally with my experience or that of anyone else I know, so I accept it as their idea, nothing more, nothing less. I wonder if all the ideas are serving to overcomplicate a quite simple subject – I hope I don’t offend anyone by saying that the fulcrum of the Western Ceremonial tradition is actually quite simple but I’m of the opinion that anyone who works consistently at their practices will experience some sort of contact. This tallies with what Crowley said actually – “invoke often” and “enflame thyself in prayer”.

And, secondly, there will always be a place in magick or spirituality, just in LIFE for this sort of contact. The transcendent other is something you find everywhere from Alcholics Anonymous to Buddhism to Whitely Streiber (not that much fun for Whitely, admittedly). I don’t see the fact we’re at the beginning of the 21st Century means we should drop this. I think what you’re saying is that the HGA as object of sole devotion ties in with monotheisms and as we’re “post-monotheistic”, we don’t need this anymore. I’d agree with this to a degree and feel that it’s more likely we would build differing relationships with different systems/religions/entities at different times in our lives. By this I don’t mean “everything is equal” in some annoying post modern smorgasboard kind of way, just that different things will attract and resonate at different times. (My current provisional provision is that all these things, dreams as well, are products of the HGA, different masks as it were but I’m sure that’ll be subject to revision soon enough). Anyway, all this is dead and redundant theory. Do some practice and you’ll answer your own questions.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:11 / 25.08.04
Yet it must ever be remembered that the personal experiences and experiments of any magician are generally unique and rarely, if ever, identical with those of others.

I'm not sure how far I'd agree with that. In terms of specifics and individual versioning, then yeah. But I'd also say that there's an observable commonality of experience between all magicians that have put the effort in and got it working.

You can generally tell someone who fits into this category after five minutes of talking to them. Less about what they actually say, but more the way they say it, the way they relate to their experiences and frame what they are talking about.

Doesn't matter so much what it is that they do specifically, I've had conversations with Tantriks, Santeria people, Western trad ceremonial folks, etc... and despite the fact that the specifics of practice might be wildly different, there's a certain commonality of experience there that you can recognise. A magician is a magician. Like how Pencak Silat is very different from Brazilian Jujitsu, but you can still kick someone's head in.
 
 
macrophage
11:00 / 25.08.04
I was merely trying to posit a balanced point of view as regards to yer HGA. Yes I have encountered my HGA, it was through the process of sigilisation and most importantly through the ardous work of deep meditation and also alot of dream-work. But I have worked with different godforms/angels/etc before. What I wanted to debate about was whether we rely too much on a post-modern thelemic ethos/current, or maybe I'm questioning myself about the whole paradigm. I think if you want to get to a point like this you have to DO great work. Time consumning but worth it in the end. Everyone has their own unique attitudes to anything remotely spiritual unless they baulk at this stuff and adopt a more materialist and scientific attitude. I never did the Abramelin, it's too much like self-torture I have adopted the position that sooner or later yer patron forms will come in time. Everything manifests when given time, in this essence this is a slighly quasi-Taoist point of view. If you like study the I ching then you'll grok what this means. But then sometimes when we talk about such issues is it possible we are wallowing in our self-made sophistries or are we communicating. You decide. It was a process of sigilisation, obtaining mantrams, further meditation, astral work, etc... I have a power animal that on ocassion I work with and have a HGA for gnosis and another pop-magickal based spirit guide. Sometimes they may act as shamanic props but they exist somewhat.
 
 
illmatic
13:36 / 25.08.04
Macrophage: I really don't getcha, mate. What do you mean you "use your HGA for gnosis"? What does gnosis mean in this context? All I seem to get from your posts is that you're saying we should feel free to work with more than one source of inspiration?
 
 
gale
16:27 / 25.08.04
On January 7, 2002, I attained knowledge and conversation of "something." I don't know if it's my HGA--and it won't say. Attained is also the wrong word, because I didn't DO anything. I was up to my eyeballs in the writings of various Christian saints (all of whom are worth reading, imo).

This entity, for lack of a better word, is with me all of the time. It doesn't tell me what to do or not to do--it's totally impartial. I don't use it during rituals, but it's always there. It will help me if I ask for help. Most importantly though, is that I love it, and have always loved it., and will always love it, love being returned.

So yes, I think things like this are relevant anywhere, anytime.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:46 / 25.08.04
Gypsy:
Doesn't matter so much what it is that they do specifically, I've had conversations with Tantriks, Santeria people, Western trad ceremonial folks, etc... and despite the fact that the specifics of practice might be wildly different, there's a certain commonality of experience there that you can recognise. A magician is a magician.

Possibly true, but I think this statement conflicts with the position you put forth in the Cultural Appropriation thread. There, you talked about the lack of commonality in many forms of magic, and emphasised the heterogeneity therein. Comment?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:53 / 25.08.04
I'm not sure I know what thread you mean. It's more than likely that I might be contradicting myself in some sense, but I dunno what it is specifically you're referencing. Can you elaborate on that a bit?
 
 
Chiropteran
12:10 / 26.08.04
I don't want to speak for GL, but I think that what is being confused is the distinction between the widely varying practices/beliefs/paradigms of magicians (using the term very broadly) from different cultures (not all deities are the same deity, not all "energies" are the same energy, not all techniques are simple variations on the same technique, etc.) and the quality of the magicians' experiences.

A Buddhist monk, a Vodou Houngan, and a Thelamite may take very different routes to where they are going, and likely have very different visions of what that destination is, but there is (perhaps) still something that they share in terms of "magical" experiences (again, using the term broadly ftsod) and the way they are affected by them.

Whether or not I entirely agree (which I reserve, pending a larger sample for personal observation), I don't think that there is any real contradiction between the two positions that GL has taken on the subject (I do remember the other thread, though I couldn't tell you the title) -- they simply deal with different ends of the same issue ("input" and "output," to criminally simplistificate things).

Also, I think that GL's argument in the other thread was in part a reaction to a hypersimplified utilitarian approach to magick of the "all _____ are the same _____" variety, rather than a comprehensive statement that there is no commonality. IIRC

That sound about right?

~L
 
 
macrophage
13:16 / 26.08.04
My current HGA I obtain information from, I always make notes within my diary. I then use that information to fuel creativity through ideas for writing. I also try to understand complex theories through contact. I have fused thelemic, chaos, shamanic, nu-isis, etc currents together. A bit of a hodge-podge innit. I have to apologise for my poor grammar - obfuscation unlimited. I don't word things properly which is probablly why my writing always turns out like babel. So I apologise for not having a University Education.
 
 
SteppersFan
14:36 / 26.08.04
Gypsy, I was thinking of the thread Cultural appropriation in magical practices.

I think Lepidopteran is right in presuming to differentiate on your behalf between between "practices/beliefs/paradigms of magicians" from different cultures and "the quality of the magicians' experiences".

I.e., one can say that "there's a certain commonality of experience there that you can recognise" and also maintain that there is a heterogeneity of magical experience in non-dominant cultures which should not be collapsed into "it's all the same thing man" sloppiness.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:16 / 26.08.04
Lep (and Gypsy) has a good point regarding the commonality of experience. A few days ago I was involved in a discussion with a half-dutch, half-brazilian practitioner of Candomble and an Alexandrian Wiccan about the interiority of the possession experience - i.e. what it feels like when one is 'possessed' to varying degrees. Despite differences in terminology and approaches we all found much 'common' experience that we could agree on in terms of how we each experienced this state and its after-effects.
 
 
cusm
18:22 / 31.08.04
My intellectual unerstandng of the HGA is that it is composed of the self reflected upon the magical/spiritual/divine plane, and is useful as either a "Higher self" interactive agent between the conscious self and divine levels of experience beyond that which the ordinary self can access or comprehend, or as an archetype used for invocations of the self to attain personal change. The concept is similar to that of the Exu, Fetch, Daemon, Totem etc: a spiritual entity that is a part of the magician yet capible of indepent action and thus the agent of magical work done by the magician. I've been working these concepts together into a more unified view of the Magickal Soul as used for these purposes, that might get a more coherent rant in the future. But the conclusion I draw from it is that it is quite necessary and universal in appearance across traditions, though varying greately in form, and could certainly be a plural format if so desired and able to be maintained.

As for my personal experiences with it, well, they're complicated But in working more with it recently, its taken an actual specific form, which is a new thing. It is very strange to work with, as I understand it to be my own soul I'm looking at (or at least a major component of it), yet interacted with as though a seperate entitey. But what's a little paradox, eh?
 
 
Char Aina
23:39 / 31.08.04
the HGA concept scares me.
i dont know why, but i got a wierd feeling while reading this thread, a feeling that i should be really fucking wary of playing with it.

any idea why i might have had such an adverse reaction?
besides being mental?
 
 
---
00:33 / 01.09.04
any idea why i might have had such an adverse reaction?
besides being mental?

Not really, i think that your HGA is a higher part of you that guides, protects and loves you. It's strange saying that because in essence, it's you. It could depend on how you see it and also what you mean by 'playing', but it's not something that would harm you i don't think. I have to do something really stupid before mine steps in and even then it just talks to me in a calm voice, i couldn't imagine it doing anything that would ever make me wary of it unless i was harming myself, then the voice would go from a calm one to a more authoritative one.

I can't really think of anything that i'm less wary of, it's my soul and/or spirit.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:48 / 01.09.04
Article by Pete Carroll on Knowledge & Conversation of the HGA here

Personally, I've never much been attracted to the concept of the HGA (or the "higher self" for that matter) and it doesn't figure in the magical systems I currently work with. Although I do rather like Pete C's notion in the article I've linked to that the K&C is a (gradual) stripping away rather than an invocation of some distinct 'entity'.

Some of Crowley's observations on the HGA can be found in Chapter XLIII of 'Magick without Tears'. In Chapter XLII he rejects the notion that the HGA can be identified as the "Higher Self":

There is only one point of theory which matters to our practice. We may readily concur that the Augoeides, the "Genius" of Socrates, and the "Holy Guardian Angel" of Abramelin the Mage, are identical. But we cannot include this "Higher Self"; for the Angel is an actual Individual with his own Universe, exactly as man is; or, for the matter of that, a bluebottle. He is not a mere abstraction, a selection from, and exaltation of, one's own favorite qualities, as the "Higher Self" seems to be.
 
 
---
05:53 / 01.09.04
the HGA concept scares me.
i dont know why, but i got a wierd feeling while reading this thread, a feeling that i should be really fucking wary of playing with it.

any idea why i might have had such an adverse reaction?
besides being mental?

I don't know if i originally read this in the wrong way or not, but just to clarify after my last post :

Obviously if you want to begin working with the HGA, trying to attain conversation with it and a lasting connection, there can be all type's of obstacles, this depends on how ready as a person or experienced with magick you are. The only problems that can arise are from within yourself. If you read the Carroll article that AOG linked to above or have read it, it explains how the ego, if not ready can throw up all types of problems and this is possibly what you are scared/wary of. As far as the HGA itself is concerned though, the actual true concept and reality of it, there's nothing about it to be wary or scared of. It's a light/energy/being that teaches and guides.
 
  
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