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Rumor: The Filth - The Movie?

 
 
Sekhmet
16:52 / 23.08.04
A friend of mine just forwarded this to me, and I'm not sure where he got it or whether it's a windup... anyone heard anything?


SHAUN OF THE DEAD TEAM TO WORK ON "THE FILTH" MOVIE?

Chris Weston's appeal a few months ago, initially through this very
column, then repeated across the net, seems to have paid off. Well,
according to a couple of journalists I speak to, Simon Pegg and Edgar
Wright, writer/star and writer/director of "Shaun of The Dead" (Region
2 DVD out in a few weeks, US film distribution in place) are currently
working on the script of "The Filth." They plan to film in March, and
"Spaced" co-writer and co-star Jessica Stevenson has already been
cast.

As to "The Filth" creators/owners, Chris Weston denies knowledge,
Grant Morrison doesn't reply to e-mails, but this looks a go. The pair
have confirmed it to some in a very nudge-nudge, wink-wink style. ITV
Teletext ran the story (before withdrawing it), but most people have
just been told that the film is "a British action adventure" and it's
title is "related to fuzz." The Fuzz, like The Filth, is British slang
for the police.

Simon Pegg did not reply to emails. DC did not choose to comment.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:49 / 23.08.04
I heard that Morrison was discussing big-budget adaptations of The Filth in Hollywood, along with The Invisibles, and also that BBC Scotland was doing a TV series of the latter.

I wouldn't personally hold out a lot of hope for any of these

a) being made
b) being good.

A TV series in particular does not inspire confidence. It could be done with the best intentions but anyone who remembers Neil Gaiman's dreadful "Neverwhere", with its sub-Doctor Who aesthetic, may share my misgivings.
 
 
Isalie
03:47 / 24.08.04
Hang on, the "Shawn" boys possibly working on it doesn't make you a little giddy?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:06 / 24.08.04
They have shown me they can do a great movie that's essentially a feature-length "Spaced". Yes, they are good at that. That doesn't give me faith in their abilities to adapt The Filth: they seem totally different projects.

Part of the whole point of the series was, as Morrison keeps saying in interview (and is contradicting with these film deals) is that it works *as a comic*. The Filth was accused of having no real plot and character -- it's ambiguous enough in its meanings to have a four-page thread here debating what it was even "about", and much of it might only work on a comic book page.

I suppose I might entertain the prejudice that a British team would understand Morrison's work better than a Hollywood studio, but then... most of Morrison's work is published by a subsidiary of Warner Bros so being part of an American corporation clearly hasn't stopped editors from "getting" his comics and doing justice to them.

On one level, the idea of Simon Pegg et al doing The Filth strikes me like Jack Black doing Green Lantern -- be interesting to see, but I'd half-expect a total travesty.

On another more fundamental level, I am a little pissed off at the whole idea of Morrison's work being adapted to cinema so fast, when he so frequently claims he's trying to do comics that explore the potential of that specific medium, and that don't try to ape cinema. I don't see why they can't be left to work as comics, as it often seems he is trying to push the boundaries of the form.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:08 / 24.08.04
On one level, the idea of Simon Pegg et al doing The Filth strikes me like Jack Black doing Green Lantern -- be interesting to see, but I'd half-expect a total travesty.

Awesome! The best thing about The Filth was the gags; the second best thing was the sense of a horribly British squallor. A Filth movie that's like the opening half hour of Shaun Of The Dead would quite possibly be better than the comic.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:09 / 24.08.04
That's a good point and I retract a little: I agree Pegg et al. could do the Greg Feely stuff really well, based on the Shaun (Shawn?) sequences of half-dead English mundanity and people wandering through lives of corner shops and bus stops in a semi-daze.

However, my main point remains that if Morrison is so keen on expanding the boundaries of comic books, and doing comics that don't imitate cinema but attempt something unique to the medium, why is he so quick to jump at movie adaptations of his most recent comics? The Feely scenes of The Filth include a fairly radical device of making panels from CCTV cameras. You could not do that precise panel/screen thing in cinema any more than you could do the first page with three figures representing a continuing action at different points in time. The Paperverse motif equally depends on it being A COMIC BOOK. I can't see how any film version would not reduce The Filth from what it already is.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:11 / 24.08.04
Kovacs: I totally agree. But surely the answer to the question why is he so quick to jump at movie adaptations of his most recent comics? is fairly simple- he'd get tons of cash for them. And, as I think Raymond Chandler said (though I'm pretty sure he nicked it from someone else), it doesn't spoil the original comics. (gestures to bookshelf) "They're all still right here".

Personally, I love the majority of George's output. And much as it would pain my inner fanboy to see someone fuck it up (even though, yes, Pegg et all could probably do the Greg Feely parts better than anyone- apart from maybe whoever it was who did that short film that was on Channel 4 a few years back about the sad, sordid old man who decided to drop acid to make his death a bit more interesting than life WITH HIDEOUS CONSEQUENCES... if anyone remembers it, please refresh my memory), I can't really begrudge him the opportunity to make a packet out of it.

(And yes, I know this is totally inconsistent with my attitude to Star Wars, and this fact saddens me.)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:24 / 24.08.04
Sure, I don't begrudge someone who has given me great pleasure and probably done more to enrich my life than any other writer whatever cash he can make out of his own work. I feel the same about Alan Moore's wash-hands-of-it attitude to LoTG/LXG. It's not Alan Moore's film and it doesn't really hurt his reputation that it's just another lacklustre CGI action flick.

It probably isn't really contradictory that Morrison (can I express my boredom with this "George" gag? no offence!) wants to make comics that don't owe a creative debt to cinema, but isn't bothered when cinema wants to try to match up to his comics.

Apart from a vague interest in seeing it done adequately or messed-up wincingly, though, I have no personal need for a film version of The Filth. I like it as a comic book. I don't care if the mainstream multiplex audience never discover Greg Feely.

As I said, I feel some kind of debt of gratitude to Morrison for all he's "given" me, cheesy as that sounds, and if he wants to get rich that's OK.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:11 / 24.08.04
(can I express my boredom with this "George" gag? no offence!)

You can, but I'm still not taking it out of his mouth or untying him unless his next words are "I like you best, Tannhauser, much more than Alex or Sax or Ganesh, and I want to touch your bottom". He only has to nod, you know. Nobody's *forcing* him to do anything.

To make a successful film of The Filth, you'd probably have to change an awful lot - not least the idioms of its expression. It can be done, however - David Lodge, adapting his own novel for TV, changed the stylistic tropes of a Victorian industrial romance into the stylistic tropes of a prestige TV adaptation of a Victorian novel. Jean-Luc Godard reworked the aesthetic of the band dessiné for Alphaville, as in a very different way did Roger Vadim. And, of course, Neil Gaiman turned perhaps the most perfect piece of television in history into the most gut-wrenchingly wonderful work of "imagineerton" (a word I made up to describe the imagination of an imagineer) ever seen in the world of books.

So, it could be done, but it would be very different. And Pegg may be too young really to "get" Greg Feely... he's only 34...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:50 / 24.08.04
Eh? is this a joke. I'm 34 and figured I was at the older edge of the comics-reading audience. How old's Greg Feely/Ned Slade -- isn't he 52? I can't remember Morrison's age but I assumed he's in his early 40s. If you're serious, I'll have to dispute the idea that you have to be "old" to understand or connect with an older character. It's a bizarre notion if you have to be born before a certain date to identify with Feely (and by extension any ageing fictional character, like Rabbit Angstrom for instance) -- I think by 25 you've got some sense of how your body's destined to betray you and progressively fail to live up to its earlier standards. Anyway, Ned Slade is really a pretty fit, athletic character, treated as a crack agent and hero: and arguably Feely's dreary situation isn't so much shaped by age as his social environment.

To be generous, it's an interesting idea. I don't think I agree with it though.

To make a successful film of The Filth, you'd probably have to change an awful lot - not least the idioms of its expression. It can be done, however - David Lodge, adapting his own novel for TV, changed the stylistic tropes of a Victorian industrial romance into the stylistic tropes of a prestige TV adaptation of a Victorian novel. Jean-Luc Godard reworked the aesthetic of the band dessiné for Alphaville, as in a very different way did Roger Vadim. And, of course, Neil Gaiman turned perhaps the most perfect piece of television in history into the most gut-wrenchingly wonderful work of "imagineerton" (a word I made up to describe the imagination of an imagineer) ever seen in the world of books.

Your deliberate refusal to name the friggen books you're talking about might hamper this discussion: because of this knowingness on your part I'm afraid I'm not sure what David Lodge you're referring to. I expect this means I haven't read it, but the title would have cleared this up.

A good example in my opinion would be The French Lieutenant's Woman, which was adapted (I simplify brutally... my tea is nearly ready) from a novel about writing a Victorian melodrama into a film about filming a Victorian melodrama.

This could be pure ignorance on my part but I didn't know Alphaville was an adaptation of a comic book -- if you're simply saying Godard was working within the motifs tropes and conventions of the comic book, OK but why couldn't it simply be said he was working within a Frenchified version of SF cinema conventions?

Vadim: I am assuming you mean Barbarella, which is straightforward enough as an example but to my mind not a stupendous instance of translating comics to cinema, because neither version is all that sophisticated or complex. The comic book Barbarella does not really push the boundaries of the medium in the way that The Filth tries to. Conventional comic books like this should in theory be a breeze to adapt, because they look so much like storyboards in the first place. I don't think that could be said of The Invisibles or The Filth, which use page layout and text deliberately to evoke transitions between different ways of seeing or thinking, and are designed to do that on a comic book page only.

As for Neil Gaiman, in the limited time I have available, I can only ask "WTF". I have no clue what gut-wrenching work of imagineerton you can be referring to. If you're discussing a TV series adapted by Gaiman to books (comic books?) that's clearly a reversal of what you were talking about before (the challenges of adapting comics to cinema) though it's still concerned with the problems of translating one medium to another.

I hope I don't sound too harsh as I respect the knowledge behind your post, but really I didn't think discussion-board contributions were meant to be crossword puzzles where I'd congratulate myself if I could work out what you were referring to.
 
 
diz
16:07 / 24.08.04
And, of course, Neil Gaiman turned perhaps the most perfect piece of television in history into the most gut-wrenchingly wonderful work of "imagineerton" (a word I made up to describe the imagination of an imagineer) ever seen in the world of books.

i really hope you're not talking about Neverwhere, at least not the novel. the TV show might have been fabulous for all i know, but the novel was far from "gut-wrenchingly wonderful." Neverwhere, frankly, was shit unworthy of the paper it was printed on. dull and completely trite, with lazy writing that pandered to the worst instincts of his most rabid fans. Gaiman's been great in the past, but he can also be just awful and cloying and gross. he has poor quality control and an uncritical fanbase, and as a result we get shit like Neverwhere. between that and 1602 i lost almost all the respect for Gaiman that i used to have as a rabid Sandman fan.
 
 
Sekhmet
16:41 / 24.08.04
I'm sure he does mean Neverwhere. Many people seem to be under the impression that the TV series was adapted from the book, but I believe it was actually the other way 'round...

My main gripe about Neverwhere is that familiarity with it caused one of my friends to give up reading the first trade of the Invisibles. I asked him why he didn't dig it and he said , "It's just like Neverwhere." Aaigh! I nearly had a conniption. But it's not Gaiman's fault I have stupid friends, I suppose.

Enough with the threadrotty... a google search on this topic turned up the rumor in a couple of other places, but I can't find the original source.

I frankly can't imagine how they would make an intelligible two-hour movie out of the Filth, unless they simplify the thing beyond all recognition, along the lines of DUNE...

Is the comic-book-movie-adaptation thing getting out of hand? I mean, Spiderman and the X-Men are all well and good, but now they're talking movies of Watchmen, Sin City, and the Filth... they're not your usual comics, and they won't be your usual movies, and I'm scared to death that in the quest to make them palatable to a mainstream audience they'll be stripped of all that made them unique and wonderful to begin with.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:50 / 24.08.04
I hope I don't sound too harsh as I respect the knowledge behind your post, but really I didn't think discussion-board contributions were meant to be crossword puzzles where I'd congratulate myself if I could work out what you were referring to.

It's probably worth remembering that if you do not understand something, it does not necessarily make it too complex in absolute terms, merely too complex for you.

Briefly: Simon Pegg has so far concentrated on skateboarding, drawing comics, McJobs, pub trivia. His characters see maturity, much less decrepitude, as either threatening (characters played by Peter Serafinovich) or concluded (Sean at the end of SotD). A character Greg Feely's age would be somebody's dad.

David Lodge -Nice Work. I think this is a better example than TFLW, since it is about adapting topoi rather than subject matter - one can make a film about writing a Victorian melodrama, whereas one cannot make a film about making a film of a Victorian melodrama in the style of a film about writing a Victorian melodrama. At least, if you can you're a better man than I am.

Alphaville - not quite. Eddie Constantine, who plays Lemmy Caution in Alphaville, previously played Lemmy Caution, a Spillaney tough guy FBI agent (written, rather wonderfully, by an Englishman, Peter Cheyney). Same name, presumably same character, but applied to a cartoon strip aesthetic, down to the grain of the paper, and whacked into a different galaxy. It was the genreversion I was drawing attention to.

Vadim - I would ask how familiar you are with the work of Jean-Claude Forest, for starters - I'm no expert, but I'm not sure your contention that Barbarella functions as a storyboard is impregnable. Nor that, for example, a fight between Spartacus Hughes and somebody else does not follow a narrative and representational pattern that a film would be unable to recreate. Certain *elements* would be lost, of course, because out of step with the technology or the generic elements, just as film John Constantine has a cute kid sidekick and film Batman kills people, but then we have already established that films and comics function in different ways, and it didn't stop Captain America being a masterpiece.

Imagineertion: Of course it's Neverwhere. For the love of Heaven. The clue was in the question - you had already laid into it. It is the only Neil Gaiman property to be a TV series converted into a book. It's the only Neil Gaiman property so far mentioned in the thread. And it is receiving hyperbolic praise despite being a load of nob. What else could it be? That's not even a trail of breadcrumbs. It's a trail of baguettes. If you lot can't detect piss-taking that spatula-think, avoid speed dating.

Ah well. So, who do we think should play Greg Feely, then? I reckon Ray Winstone. Or Nick Frost. Or both.
 
 
Michelle Gale
19:02 / 24.08.04
NO IM CLEVERER!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:57 / 24.08.04
Noam Cleverer?

Never heard of him, I'm afraid.

So, Rhythmic Gale, is this you for the rest of time? Schlepping around campaigning for the right to contribute nothing worthwhile? Sad.

Incidentally, I have a feeling this should be in Films...
 
 
Bed Head
21:25 / 24.08.04
And, as if by magic, it is!

As for Greg, Winstone’s far too invulnerable. I’d vote for Peter Davison. Chunky, shifty looking bloke with a flushed face and a combover, yet not so big that he can’t possibly get into shape for the role of Ned. Perfect.

Plus, he’s a former Doctor Who, and *everyone* loves to see one of those floundering their way through a confusing procession of sexually-themed adventures, don’t they?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:32 / 24.08.04
Actually, the scary thing is that I can sort of see that... Of course, one of the "non-filmic" things that would have to be overcome would be GF having two different body types in his different personae...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:38 / 24.08.04
It's probably worth remembering that if you do not understand something, it does not necessarily make it too complex in absolute terms, merely too complex for you.

come off it, that's not something "worth remembering". None of my opinions or misunderstandings work in absolute terms. My point was that your showing off by referring obliquely to novels, films and TV shows and deliberately not giving the titles wasn't conducive to discussion. It might have made you feel or seem clever but it meant I had to try to work out what you meant before engaging with it -- which isn't a sign of your cleverness but the extent to which we share a bank of cultural knowledge.

That you meant Neverwhere when you described a gut-wrenching wet-dream of imagineertion -- well done for "inventing" that term by adding a suffix to some mutated abortion of the English language copyrighted by Walt Disney in the 1950s and making an ugly word even more horrendous -- isn't "complex". It is willfully obscure on your part. If you want to have a discussion rather than musing to yourself, you have to make it clear what you're talking about.

If I interject that, say, "Martin Amis' greatest love-song to contemporary amorality" would provide the most fitting example to serve my argument, but don't specify which of his many novels I mean, and you don't guess or somehow work out the novel I was referring to, I don't think that means my reference was too complex. I think it means I should have been more specific instead of mistaking "having a discussion" for "wanking off in a mirror".

No offence!





Briefly: Simon Pegg has so far concentrated on skateboarding, drawing comics, McJobs, pub trivia. His characters see maturity, much less decrepitude, as either threatening (characters played by Peter Serafinovich) or concluded (Sean at the end of SotD). A character Greg Feely's age would be somebody's dad.


That's a fair point, although I think I remember the parents being portrayed quite sympathetically in Shaun of the Dead, and there's no reason why we couldn't expect Pegg to transcend what he's done previously.


David Lodge -Nice Work.


Have read this but can't come up with a useful response to your comments after 4 pints. Isn't that the novel where a middle-class feminist lecturer "changes places" with a boorish male manager.



Alphaville - not quite. Eddie Constantine, who plays Lemmy Caution in Alphaville, previously played Lemmy Caution, a Spillaney tough guy FBI agent (written, rather wonderfully, by an Englishman, Peter Cheyney). Same name, presumably same character, but applied to a cartoon strip aesthetic, down to the grain of the paper, and whacked into a different galaxy.


OK... interesting though you seem to be saying that the same character (presumably) had previously appeared in a comic book style film.

These examples are suggestive I admit, but I don't see what they really show us about successful adaptation from comic book to cinema.



Vadim - I would ask how familiar you are with the work of Jean-Claude Forest, for starters - I'm no expert, but I'm not sure your contention that Barbarella functions as a storyboard is impregnable.


That's fair...I do own Barbarella in comic book form but I can't say I've read it recently or studied it closely. We are only talking about Barbarella so I wouldn't have to be familiar with "the work of Jean-Claude Forest" in a more general sense to answer your point and support my own: which was that I suspect Barbarella is a more straightforward comic book than The Filth, and thus easier to adapt to cinema.



I was trying to say that more traditional comics -- and I certainly remember the BD Barbarella as being pretty conventional in its form -- do resemble film storyboards more than The Filth does, and don't challenge the form to such an extent.

On another tack, how many successful cinematic adaptations from comic books would you name? I don't think I could come up with more than Spider-Man I and II. And I'd suggest those were adapted mainly from the early work of Lee and Ditko, which we all admire but which doesn't try to warp the reader's mind like Morrison's comics do. A typically soapy, fun Lee/Ditko storyline about Peter and M-J romance with the Green Goblin attacking midway through is not, in my view, anywhere like as difficult to adapt as a chapter of the Invisible Kingdom where you have to study each frame just to work out its relation to the last one.

If it was easy and worthwhile to adapt comics to cinema, why can't I name more than one decent comic-book film?


Nor that, for example, a fight between Spartacus Hughes and somebody else does not follow a narrative and representational pattern that a film would be unable to recreate. Certain *elements* would be lost, of course, because out of step with the technology or the generic elements, just as film John Constantine has a cute kid sidekick and film Batman kills people, but then we have already established that films and comics function in different ways, and it didn't stop Captain America being a masterpiece.


I'm not sure where you come in with Captain America. If there's a genius film of Captain America, that would support your argument that movie adaptations of comics can be different but still successful. I am not aware of any such adaptation.

Yes, aspects of The Filth would be fairly straightforward to adapt to cinema, I agree. (You see, to a reasonable extent I'm accepting your points... I hope you won't think I'm rubbishing what you say for the sake of it.)

Overall, though, I don't see who or what would benefit from that adaptation. Just as I have no interest in seeing a comic book version of, say, the film City of God. When things work well for me in one medium, I don't enthuse over the idea of them being adapted to another medium where there's no guarantee that they'll work nearly as well, and where the odds are they'll lose the qualities I initially admired.



Imagineertion: Of course it's Neverwhere. For the love of Heaven. The clue was in the question - you had already laid into it. It is the only Neil Gaiman property to be a TV series converted into a book. It's the only Neil Gaiman property so far mentioned in the thread. And it is receiving hyperbolic praise despite being a load of nob. What else could it be? That's not even a trail of breadcrumbs. It's a trail of baguettes. If you lot can't detect piss-taking that spatula-think, avoid speed dating.


Forgive me for not guessing what to you was obvious. I think my reasoning process blocked any connection between the horrendous public humiliation of Neverwhere and the word "imagineertion".


Ah well. So, who do we think should play Greg Feely, then? I reckon Ray Winstone. Or Nick Frost. Or both.


Grant Mitchell. His real name is on the tip of my tongue. I am right though.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:53 / 25.08.04
In the cold lite of morning:

sorry for the sharpness of my tongue above. I think this topic should try to veer clear of point-scoring about who has seen which film and/or read which comic or novel, if possible, and I would suggest that it concentrates on a general issue as well as the specific about The Filth:


Is there really any benefit in adapting any comic to cinema?


if so, give me a good example of one.

As I see it, the point of adapting comics would be

1. making money for those involved
2. the challenge of translating from one medium to another
3. bringing a work to a larger audience.

I can't dispute .1. and .2. is worthy enough if that's ever a genuine reason behind the film production.

I don't really buy .3. because the adaptation for a broader film-going audience inevitably involves changes to make the plot, characters and history simpler and more accessible, sometimes warping the whole concept of the comic book (eg. Tim Burton's supposedly OK-to-excellent Batman movie giving the Batman a casual love interest and making the Joker a stocky pantomime dame, for the purposes of casting a big-name star and incorporating a nice blonde bird for the dads.)


As I said, I can't think of a single really good comic book adaptation, one that justifies the process of taking it from the original medium and transferring it to a completely different form for a completely different market. Ghost World was fine, but I understand that film made significant differences to the focus and characterisation (ie. about a male-female relationship more than about the two girls). Was Blade originally a comic book? That was OK in its way. Road To Perdition was a reasonable film but I don't know the comic book. From Hell was a fair job but I wouldn't say it really captures much of the original. I am not familiar with the comic or film of Hellboy, but perhaps they buck the trend. X-Men I and II have also been surprisingly good but I don't have a huge investment in the comic version so I don't know how much has been bent or betrayed in the transition to cinema.

I enjoyed the recent two Spider-Man films a great deal and unless I can think of another example, those would remain the prime exception -- again, with my proviso that they were adapted from classic but pretty straightforward comic book stories. You could perhaps say the same for Superman The Movie and Superman II, both of which I remember as being enjoyable and faithful to the spirit of the 1970s Superman, but which again weren't attempting to capture anything especially complex (which I'd contrast with The Filth and The Invisibles.)

On the other side of the scales: Daredevil, Punisher, the Punisher (again), every Batman film since the 1960s (apart from Mask of the Phantasm), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Supergirl (much as I adored H. Slater), Catwoman, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, arguably The Hulk.

And most of these are straight, mainstream superhero titles that you would think it would be a comparative breeze, again compared to The Invisibles, to adapt into a movie.

When a comic is written to explore and challenge the conventions of the medium of comic books, then I really see no good justification (besides $$$) for not leaving it alone, on the comic book page, where it was meant to do its work.
 
 
_Boboss
07:58 / 25.08.04
I think this topic should try to veer clear of point-scoring about who has seen which film and/or read which comic or novel

i think you should just chill when people are taking the piss. here's a tip: if neil gaiman's name or work pops up, it's being said with a smirk.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:49 / 25.08.04
Not necessarily. There are plenty of fans of his work around here, and others who like some of his work. However, if you can't get your head around the idea that "imagineertion" is an intentionally ugly neologism coined with satirical intent, then you probably need to make clear that you struggle with the use of language for any purpose other than straight description and ordering chips. I will attempt to respect this from now on.

No offence!

While we're here - Captain America. Pure genius.

Onwards.

Is there really any benefit in adapting any comic to cinema?

if so, give me a good example of one.

As I see it, the point of adapting comics would be

1. making money for those involved
2. the challenge of translating from one medium to another
3. bringing a work to a larger audience.

I can't dispute .1. and .2. is worthy enough if that's ever a genuine reason behind the film production.


I don't mean to be obvious, but this seems to have omitted what I would suggest is the most compelling reason to make a film - to make a film. Now, a producer may want a film that sells out multiplexes, a director may want a film that provides conceptual and technical challenges, an actor may want a film that provides a meaty, Oscar-material role, or one that will pay for his or her next house. The challenge of adapting other material may be a factor, the popularisation of something those involved with the creation like may be another (certainly the makers of Troy, which is a film about the Trojan War directed by Wolfgang Petersen and starring Brad Pitt and Eric Bana, would no doubt assiduously claim that they wanted to send people beavering into the Iliad, which is a book set during the Trojan War written by something identified as Homer, starring Achilles, his wrath and others). However, the point is that at the end of the process there is a film where previously there was none.

Films, being a fairly late-rising medium, are often conceptually derivative, and one can certainly draw comparisons between the source material and the new object which is identified as related to it. For example, you may prefer the book Possession, which is a novel written by AS Byatt in which the hunt for lost manuscripts interweaves with the story of two beaky and socially inept academics, to the film Possession, which is a film directed by Neil LaBute in which lush period drama is interweaved with a romance between the buffest and most taned academic in the history of the British Library and an American actress with radiant skin and a reputation for giving good English accent. You may ask why there was a need to make a film from Possesion. The next logical question is why there was a need to make a book from the thought that became the book Possession. In both cases somebody has decided to create an object, and somebody else has decided that that object will sell.

Of course, many changes occur in the creation of the film Possession from the book Possession - books has access to resources, such as descriptive narrative, an authorial voice, the use of text - that film does not naturally reproduce. See also the problems inherent in making a book from a film - for example, the novelisation of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, based on the film The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which was based on the comic The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen does not have access to the spectacular CGI or stereo effects of the film, relying instead on descriptive narrative &c - or indeed a film from a play - although both media involve actors acting, the way in which they are created and distributed is entirely different.

So, if you are complaining that a film is not sufficiently faithful to its original source material, you need to work out what of that is formal and what based on specific scripting, directorial and acting decisions. Your contention is not that it is impossible to make a good film from ideas originally expressed in a comic book - you name good films that are born from those those dragon's teeth, without even mentioning Mystery Men, a film directed by Kinka Usher and starring everyone who is good in this world. So, to bring it back home, can The Filth, a comic book written by Grant Morrison, be a guaran-damn-tee that a film based on it would not work? I would say no. Can it be guaran-damn-teed that such a film would have to deal with the fact that its source material is in an entirely different medium, and that it was created in a way that exploits and enlists the elements of its medium in a way that could not be transferred directly to film? Yes, it can. However, so does every film that is made from ideas originally found in a book, a play, a historical event... the job of the writer, director and actors is to work out what elements could be included successfully in a film, and to amend those, include others, remove others yet. If, therefore, you go to see a film demanding that it be the same as the source from which it was taken, I don't think you will ever be pleased by any film that is comprehensible in identification as a film. Except Captain America, obviously.

So, it is possible that a film that you would not recognise as using the same stylistic features as the comic book The Filth would be better than something that tried to - note the use of colour and frames in The Hulk, a film directed by Ang Lee and starring Hulk hands, and would still be in some way identifiable as "a film of the comic book The Filth", just as the film od Spider-Man can be identified both as good and as "a film of the comic book Spider-Man", despite the fact that the narrative technologies of film do not allow Spider-Man, for example, to fire a webline that extends outside the border of a frame, or to extend a limb out of the frame of the cinema screen, both of which are staples of the way the story is told in comic books. It is further possible that such a film would be a good film. Personally, I doubt it, but then not many films are good.
 
 
Michelle Gale
09:54 / 25.08.04

I thinking that paramedic bloke from casualty, he'd do a good Greg, not sure about him doing Ned though, he's a bit too weedly somehow and he's probably not the biggest box office draw ever.

I'm not sure how far this will go ahed without it being almost completly different fr5{obably would be way to depressing for mainstream audiences with the whole everthing=shit theme. Having said that there seems to be a trend toward action movies having a big sci-fi/philosophical themes at the momment. Just look at Matrix/X-men/ I Robot etc
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:19 / 25.08.04
Grant Mitchell, by the way, was played by Ross Kemp. His utter inability to act may be a problem...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:24 / 25.08.04
Grant Mitchell was played by Ross Kemp.

As a piece of casting, that in itself would justify the making of The Filth: The Movie.

Which otherwise really doesn't sound all that promising. Simon Pegg and his pals from Spaced might be able to handle the Greg Feely scenes, but as for the rest of it, all I can picture is sleazy Dr Who with a crap talking monkey, and most of issues 3 to say 8 left in the cutting room...

Actually, on reflection, that might just work.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:52 / 25.08.04
No offence on both sides must surely cancel out into a truce there Haus... sorry if I seemed to blow my gasket but I secretly enjoy doing so. Being a veteran of other boards and relatively new on B-lith I guess I am not entirely au fait with the unwritten conventions here and can't necessarily tell what's meant as a "joke".

Anyway I shall come back to your essay-length response as soon as I can.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:28 / 25.08.04
Yeah - the "no offence!" was to flag up that I was joking. I was sort of expecting us both to hurl paragraphs of increasingly personal insults at each other, followed by "no offence!", for the rest of the thread. Sorry if I seemed obtuse - was *incredibly* tired yesterday and I think my brain went a bit compressy.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:07 / 25.08.04
A critical thing to remember about most comic adaptations is that they're made primarily to make money, and, while the director may have a passion for the material, they're produced by people who see the pre-existing characters as an in to an audience. Most of your superhero adaptations are like this. You're more likely to get buzz on your movie if it's a superhero comic adaptation, rather than an original action movie.

Then, there's movies like From Hell and Road to Perdition. This is an adaptation like most books adapted to film. It's just taking a story from one medium and playing it in another. I think From Hell was an awful failure, completely losing sight of what made the source material work.

I think Ghost World has been the most successful comic adaptation to date. It captures the look of the book, and the tone perfectly. Sure, the focus is shifted a bit, but I think that makes work as a supplement to the book, not a replacement. If you read the book and the movie together, you can see the whole story, but either one works independently.

The reason that Ghost World works is because the people making it clearly loved it and understood why it worked. I think a Filth movie could work, as long as the tone is captured. I wouldn't mind if parts of the plot are lost, as long the basic conflict, Greg Feely, ordinary guy, vs. Ned Slade, superhero, is kept intact.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:53 / 25.08.04
Right, let's see if I can stay civil.

I don't mean to be obvious, but this seems to have omitted what I would suggest is the most compelling reason to make a film - to make a film. Now, a producer may want a film that sells out multiplexes, a director may want a film that provides conceptual and technical challenges, an actor may want a film that provides a meaty, Oscar-material role, or one that will pay for his or her next house.

Apart from the director's reasons in your hypothetical situation here, all these reasons for making a film boil down to making money for the people involved.

The challenge of adapting other material may be a factor, the popularisation of something those involved with the creation like may be another (certainly the makers of Troy, which is a film about the Trojan War directed by Wolfgang Petersen and starring Brad Pitt and Eric Bana, would no doubt assiduously claim that they wanted to send people beavering into the Iliad, which is a book set during the Trojan War written by something identified as Homer, starring Achilles, his wrath and others).

I was aware of Troy and the Iliad without your Cliff's Notes, but thanks. I find this supplementary reason pretty hard to swallow, though I agree that production teams do come up with it. I think it's a way of dressing up and dignifying the fact that, again, they thought this would be a moneyspinner.

However, the point is that at the end of the process there is a film where previously there was none.

I tend to believe that the film, within the mainstream "Hollywood" cinema, is a means to an end, ie. money (and kudos/credibility/plaudits, that also = money.)

I might have to temper this scepticism if we're talking about "independent" cinema adaptations, like for instance Ghost World (created by Daniel Clowes and, in its screen form, starring Thora Birch and Steve Buscemi). While not wanting to make simplistic distictions between cynical commercial mainstream and worthy, high-minded independent cinema, I find it easier to believe that a comic-book adaptation within the latter institutional context could be motivated by a genuine love for the comic and a desire to engage with it, perhaps promoting it to a new and wider audience.

My suspicion about the way mainstream American cinema works also affects my response to your example about Possession.

You may ask why there was a need to make a film from Possesion. The next logical question is why there was a need to make a book from the thought that became the book Possession. In both cases somebody has decided to create an object, and somebody else has decided that that object will sell.

Maybe it's old-fashioned, retrograde, romantic, but I would tend to draw a distinction between an author's decision to create a novel and a studio's decision to option it for adaptation. Turning a thought into a novel, even in your account which is meant to make the two seem parallel processes, has an air of Virginia Woolf about it -- the creative spark, the drive to make the intangible concrete, to pour one's consciousness upon the page &c.

Turning a novel into a film evokes, for me, visions of board meetings like that Orange cinema ad about not letting a mobile phone ruin your movie: can't we make Pemberley into more of a spectacular citadel? Couldn't we have Elizabeth and Jane Bennett just getting undressed together once, even if we're nixing the lesbian incest? I'm still angling for making Frank Churchill CGI, if we can't get Eminem for the role.

I exaggerate slightly but I think the creation of a novel, a solo work produced by one individual at a word processor on their own -- although of course it also involves the motivation of money and fame -- is very different from the process of collaboration, compromise and corporate dealing that an optioned novel goes through before it becomes a feature film.




So, if you are complaining that a film is not sufficiently faithful to its original source material, you need to work out what of that is formal and what based on specific scripting, directorial and acting decisions. ... So, to bring it back home, can The Filth, a comic book written by Grant Morrison, be a guaran-damn-tee that a film based on it would not work? I would say no. Can it be guaran-damn-teed that such a film would have to deal with the fact that its source material is in an entirely different medium, and that it was created in a way that exploits and enlists the elements of its medium in a way that could not be transferred directly to film? Yes, it can. However, so does every film that is made from ideas originally found in a book, a play, a historical event... the job of the writer, director and actors is to work out what elements could be included successfully in a film, and to amend those, include others, remove others yet. If, therefore, you go to see a film demanding that it be the same as the source from which it was taken, I don't think you will ever be pleased by any film that is comprehensible in identification as a film.


That's fair enough, and yes, I think some adaptations of fiction do work very well as films. Even if they retain the "spirit" and disregard much of the detail, like for instance Clueless (Emma) and B. Luhrmann's Romeo + Juliet (I shall not insult you by telling you the source material). Although neither are incredible works of art, I enjoyed both the novel and the film adaptation of High Fidelity although the film changes the setting from UK to US; and I think P. Jackson's LOTR trilogy arguably worked better than the books in some ways, eg. by cross-cutting between the different factions of the Fellowship rather than dealing with each in separate halves of The Two Towers.

I haven't seen the film adaptation of Ulysses, to take another example, but I hear some Joyceans respect and admire its attempt to film an unfilmable novel that you would think could only work in its original medium. For that matter, I think the film Trainspotting works really well by introducing playful visual stylistic traits that work as equivalent to, rather than the same as, the prose experiment in the original novel.

So, in theory yes I agree. The Filth could be done in a way that uses the potential of cinema in a fittingly similar but not identical way to the original comic book's exploration of that medium.

I suppose my misgivings stem from my suspicion that the people who adapt comic books generally don't seem to "understand" or care about the comic book. They don't seem to "get" it or really want to engage with what it's trying to do. They just want to create a franchise with action figures and get a deal with Burger King for Bruce Willis-as-Ned-Slade toys.
 
 
grant
17:39 / 26.08.04
Superman was a comic book, and a fun series of films (both the George Reeves and Christopher Reeve ones).

Would The Filth work better if Le Pen was changed to a cipher for a camera? If Feely's hand was clutching a digital camera when he collapses?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:53 / 30.08.04
Rumor ostensibly debunked in the 30 August edition of Lying In The Gutters...

Edgar Wright, co-writer and director of "Shaun Of The Dead" writes to deny that they're working on "The Filth" as their next movie project. Despite some US journalists swearing that's what they said, Edgar puts it on the record.

"Afraid I have to refute this one from the horses mouth.

"Me and Simon are not adapting 'The Filth.' I don't know where this rumour started.

"Chris Weston sent us the comic, but we are in fact doing a separate project which has the working title of 'Fuzz.' Hence the confusion.

"Chris & Grant's title (which I'll admit I haven't read) is a mindbending sci-fi title; our film will be very much down to earth.


Of course, it could be an elaborate double-bluff... but if he thinks THE FILTH isn't down-to-earth, then he probably really hasn't read it...
 
 
Sekhmet
16:23 / 30.08.04
At this point I'm not sure if I'm relieved or disappointed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:38 / 30.08.04
Maybe it's old-fashioned, retrograde, romantic, but I would tend to draw a distinction between an author's decision to create a novel and a studio's decision to option it for adaptation. Turning a thought into a novel, even in your account which is meant to make the two seem parallel processes, has an air of Virginia Woolf about it -- the creative spark, the drive to make the intangible concrete, to pour one's consciousness upon the page &c.

Turning a novel into a film evokes, for me, visions of board meetings like that Orange cinema ad about not letting a mobile phone ruin your movie: can't we make Pemberley into more of a spectacular citadel? Couldn't we have Elizabeth and Jane Bennett just getting undressed together once, even if we're nixing the lesbian incest? I'm still angling for making Frank Churchill CGI, if we can't get Eminem for the role.

I exaggerate slightly but I think the creation of a novel, a solo work produced by one individual at a word processor on their own -- although of course it also involves the motivation of money and fame -- is very different from the process of collaboration, compromise and corporate dealing that an optioned novel goes through before it becomes a feature film.


Well, that *is* rather romantic, isn't it? Also, optioning a film and writing a novel are different processes - a better comparison would be writing a novel and directing a film..

Any novel on the shelves will have an editor looking at the work, recommending changes, a publisher deciding whether and when when the book should be released, an agent negotiating the terms of that release, and so on. I take the point that a film has more people involved in its creation than a book, and the more expensive the movie the more people. However, that is surely simply a quality of the process of film-making?

Note also that the film of Pride and Prejudice currently in the pipeline will to my knowledge include neither lesbian incest nor Eminem, nor did the TV series, although it *did* involve a very damp Mr Darcy. Remember, those Orange adverts are parodies. They play on exaggerated perceptions of situations rather than the actual truth of a situation, in order to sell a product.

Now, if the sole aim of those involved in a movie is to make money, why is anyone writing the script? Why, for that matter, is that scriptwriter not in fact instead trying to become CEO of a Fortune 500 company? I think your dichotony is simplistic. People write books to make money, people work on films, even if they also want to make money, even if the producers have worked out what multiple of ROI makes this a successful movie or an unsuccessful movie (just as the publisher of an India Knight novel will), because they have a story they want to tell, or a jaw-dropping effects sequence they want to succeed in making real and involving for the audience - because their motivation is artistic.

(Back on topic, is it not possible that GM is exzcited by the idea of his properties being turned into films not just because of the money, but because *people watch films*?)
 
  
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