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Piraha: a fascinating tribal culture

 
 
sine
21:33 / 20.08.04
I already posted a version of this thread up in the Head Shop, but I thought it might have special significance and separate issue for those of us who try to re-engineer our reality tunnels on their day off.

This is one of the most interesting cultures I've ever heard of. If everything claimed is true, it blows a whole tonne of assumed common denominators out of the water.

Piraha
 
 
sine
21:59 / 20.08.04

Piraha language Wiki link
 
 
Unicornius
22:38 / 20.08.04
"The question is, is there any case where not having words for something doesn't allow you to think about it?" Prof. Gordon asked about the Piraha and the Whorfian thesis. "I think this is a case for just that."

This contradicts Chomsky's theory as expressed in the article, but not only that but one possible explanation to Magick phenomena. New words + different letters = Different thinking patterns and different realities.

And if one doesn't think about something because we don't know its name... ¿what are we missing?

But we already know this, don't we? GM was perfectly clear about it on Invisibles vol II and III. It could be cientific proof for that?

Anyway its food for thought
 
 
Ria
23:29 / 20.08.04
I fail to see how the Piraha language contradicts Chomsky's theories. reviewing what I thought I knew a few minutes ago I still could not find the contradiction. granted I have only read glosses on the theories by other writers.
 
 
Unicornius
00:15 / 21.08.04
Basically because Chomsky says that language is an instinct. When humans learn their native tongue, is because nature has provided them with the ability to do so.
That words are there to express what you want and do not influence the world as it is. Reality dictates language not viceversa. In that way language is only one way to express ideas. We see everything there is to see and in turn name it, and add every kind of grammatic nuisances to our sentences. That means everyone thinks in the same way but with different words and grammatic structures. And we can invent words for previously unexistant ones translated from other languages, or adapt them when the need arises. We can also picture something in our mind, create it and the name it, and even if some doesn't know at first what it means that person can comprehend it. Because language is a tool not a way of thinking

We all eat the same food only cooked differently.

The piraha have their reality formed by their lingüstic deficiencies, (I hope the spelling is correct) if we can call them that, and in doing so are bounded by them. They are unable to see the difference between one and two even though there really is one, or to name colors. So their thinking should be different to ours. If they can't name something it doesn't exists. I was going to say think but they can't think outside their notions of reality.

Then again, maybe they are just a bunch of cocky bastards who think themselves as superior to everyone else in the world and refuse to change, or aknowledge the possibility that their reality is just the same as ours.

Chomsky= Nature (reality) forms language
Piraha (probably)= Language forms reality
 
 
Unconditional Love
03:10 / 21.08.04
great tribe, glad theres some intelligence left in the world.

as for language being an instinct, hmmmm, not sure on that one, i think its taught, i think mimicry may well be an instinct common to a majority of mammals, but language in humans, no just doesnt feel right to me from my own experiences, pattern recognition may well be an instinctual part of humanity, but i dont think numeracy is.
its a fascinating article.
 
 
Unconditional Love
03:25 / 21.08.04
found the last few paragraphs fascinating, especially the idea of spirit posession
 
 
Ria
16:11 / 22.08.04
I don't see a contradiction between reality shapes language and language shapes reality.

a whole continent has one genesis and you can talk about tectonic plates.

on the scale of a rock on that continent you deal with a different time scale and different laws like sedimentation or erosion. and neither disproves the other.
 
 
SteppersFan
15:15 / 24.08.04
Great Tribe, WolfAngel? I don't want to be too judgemental about another culture, but if the report is right, and "Even when food is available, they frequently starve ... their children" -- then that is OBVIOUSLY A FUCKING SHITE TRIBE.

Ria, would you care to explain more clearly how this tribe does not contradict Chomsky's model? I didn't get your argument first time.
 
 
Triplets
23:22 / 06.09.04
Be judgemental 2step, wolfangel is clearly really bloody stupid.
 
  
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