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The Trouble With Black Men

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:14 / 19.08.04
The Trouble With Black Men.

Why is this being hid on BBC3? And BBC3 and not BBC4? But anyway, the presenter is following the idea that it's not necessarily white culture that is causing all the problems for black kids, but black culture telling men they should be hardcase 'ghetto flys'.

Anyone else watching this? Let us discuss this like a bunch of mainly white, middle-class people.
 
 
waxy dan
19:21 / 19.08.04
I'd love to, but unfortunately don't have BBC Three. I'll be curious to hear about it.

Some of my workmates in the college where I teach were talking about a government report that had come to a similar conclusion (though that's second hand - I couldn't find a copy of the report myself). Couldn't decide if it was utter toss or not.
 
 
ChasFile
19:43 / 19.08.04
This from the South African guy who had a band full of black men but never seemed to count them as equals, and even named the band after himself? Shut up, Dave Mathews.
 
 
gridley
20:31 / 19.08.04
Surely, it's a different David Matthews...
 
 
Ganesh
22:34 / 19.08.04
Yeah, stick to turkeys, Dave.
 
 
TeN
22:54 / 19.08.04
I haven't seen it, but he's not the first to make the same claim.

Bill Cosby was recently criticised for saying something very similar. In an interview with Time, Al Sharpton said he agrees with Cosby. I have two black friends who I've discussed this with, and both of them also agree. I'd have to agree as well... although I'm not black, so please don't lynch me.
 
 
Triplets
22:58 / 19.08.04


Slick-man slash part-time hitman
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:20 / 20.08.04
Let us discuss this like a bunch of mainly white, middle-class people.

For that very reason, I'd rather Barbelith didn't discuss this at all. It's just going to get embarrassing very quickly.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:36 / 20.08.04
Although having said that, despite not having seen the programme I can't resist commenting:

David grew up in an environment where crime, violence and social decay were seen as the norm and knows people who have been shot, shot others or taken drugs.

However, through self-determination David got his act together, went to university and forged a career as a writer - something he had wanted to do since childhood.


These paragraphs makes me a little queasy. "Self-determination"? It's pretty easy to read into this a standard reactionary message: it's not the racism of rest of society or the state that's to blame, because Davis has done well for himself - so could the rest of them if they'd just stop mucking about with the So Solid Crew music and get their act together! (Also "knows people who have taken drugs" - gosh!)

I dunno - there's nothing in the programme outline that suggests how (or even that) he comes to the conclusion that "it's not necessarily white culture that is causing all the problems for black kids", and obviously I don't know to what extent the programme suggests white culture is or isn't to blame (mind you, at one point the notes say it's shown that "the media" is partly to blame, and if that's not white culture I don't know what is). A lot of the factors which are described as causes of problems seem to me to have other causes themselves, causes which are to a large extent rooted in white culture or in historical oppression or current racism in society...

Yes, there's a balance to be struck, and stressing personal responsibilities - "tak[ing] a long, hard look" at oneself - usually has value. But I'm very wary of how even a balanced message could be hijacked as propaganda. It's not us nice white middle class people who are to blame, it's those nasty Yardies! Look, a black man says so!
 
 
Cat Chant
09:23 / 20.08.04
It looks like this debate is being framed in terms of black or white 'culture' - music, 'the media, etc - over economic/legal/concrete-ideological practices (I can't think of a better term to refer to things like stop-and-search practices, for example), which is a bit dodgy in itself, but might have interesting consequences for this discussion, for example...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:38 / 20.08.04
Interesting article at Blink (Black Information Link, which doesn't do much for David Matthews' credibility.

It is not the first time 37-year-old Matthews has courted controversy. Two years ago he sparked widespread offence in the Black community with a full-page article in the London Evening Standard headlined entitled ‘Why I Prefer to date White Woman.’

In the article Matthews labelled African-Caribbean women “scary”, unapproachable and a turn-off in bed. He claimed that by comparison White women "just don’t have as many hang-ups."


And best of all, wait for it...

The BBC blurb for ‘The Trouble With Black Men’ says: “He [Matthews] can’t understand why so many black men are hooked on a lazy way of life, why they get through so many relationships and why they’re obsessed with masculinity and the tough-guy image. David thinks it’s time to tear up the PC rule book and pull black men up on their shoddy behaviour.”

Ah yes, the PC rule book! (Because certainly all those PC media liberals would never join David Matthews in doing something so daring as blaming crime on rap music, eh?)Admittedly that's not a direct quote from Matthews himself, but I suspect it's fair to say that gives us an indication of what kind of agenda we're dealing with here.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:52 / 20.08.04
I see your 'Why I Prefer to Date White Women' and raise you a 'Why I Only Date Black Men'.

Any chance of you engaging with anything that was actually said in the program (such as wossname from the So Solid Crew claiming that it's all the fault of parents not controlling their kids, right before a 'spontaneous' trip to a local school to shower the kids with free stuff and then when a parent complains getting the kids to back him up in saying it's okay for him to do that)?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:02 / 20.08.04
As I said, I haven't seen the programme, so I'm engaging with the wider context, which should not be dismissed. But if the kind of shocking revelation you want me to engage with is "pop star = not necessarily very good social commentator or role model", I'm not really sure where to start...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:15 / 20.08.04
I thought you didn't want it discussed here?
 
  
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