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Voodoo

 
 
Lord Switch
10:25 / 19.08.04
Another post made med realise how little I knew about voodoo (spelling) santeria and all those similar religions/magickal traditions.

I have read the websites Gypsy Lantern linked to, but those werent enough.

Please, share everything you know or think you know about the religion, the different Gods, their names and spheres of influence, any recommended books that aren´t fraud books and simmilar things.

Let´s summarize our collective knowledge on the subject!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:38 / 19.08.04
Why do you want to know about this subject? If you don't mind me asking, what do you intend to do with the information you're looking for?

I'm not being funny, but if you want to know about these subjects in any depth, to start with i'd suggest reading Maya Deren's 'Divine Horsemen', Karen McCarthy's 'Mama Lola', perhaps a few of the Migene Gonzales Whippler books on Santeria, and hang out on a few ATR (African Traditional Religions) web groups to get an idea of The Religion in its various forms, the common points of reference, differences, similarities, and general principles.

For my own reasons, I'm not comfortable contributing to a "Voodoo in a nutshell" type thread. Not my place.
 
 
illmatic
11:12 / 19.08.04
I would second both those books especially Karen McCarthy Brown's - it really is one of the best books I've read about magick full stop. The author was/is an American academic who met "Mama Lola" while studying contemporary haitian religon in New York, and went onto form a strong friendship with her, and went on as far as taking initiation in Haiti. It's brillant, it shows the richnss of the deities weaving in and out of the lives of the diasporia community. It's out of print but you'll be able to get it on abebooks or through a library somewhere. I think it's a far superior resource than chitchatting about it on here.
 
 
grant
14:43 / 19.08.04
here and here.
 
 
Axolotl
15:18 / 19.08.04
"Mama Lola" is brilliant book, either as an instructional tool or just for those seeking more information on Voodou. It's a shame it's out of print but you should (might) be able to get it from your local university library as it is one of the key academic texts for the study of Voodou.
 
 
SteppersFan
15:31 / 24.08.04
I understand Gypsy's reluctance to build a "cut-out'n'keep" voodoo system in a little thread here, but I'd be interested in another angle... What's the story on voodoo's emergence in western, especially white British,culture? As I remember it, there was quite a big upswell of interest in the early 90s. Before then there was thelemic people getting into it in the 70s... and there was that shop in Dalston all through the 80s... My knowledge of the recent history is very patchy, but it could be an interesting story to tell...
 
 
maledictus
16:43 / 24.08.04
I just recently bought the books "Vodoo and Hodoo" by Haskins and "Vodou Shaman" by Ross Heaven.
V&H I haven't read too much of till now, but it seems to be mainly "Kill cat, drain blood, spray somewhere" kind of stuff, without actual cultural/spiritual explanations given. Didn't catch my interest that much.
Vodou Shaman on the other hand shows Vodou as a very positive , life-affirming system and gives what seem to be legit insights on the spiritual side of things, and i'd recommended it (mind you, though, haven't tried any of the rituals described within yet)
 
 
luke hugh
18:21 / 24.08.04
The Serpernt and the Rainbow to me taught me all about Haitian culture and that is my 2 cents. Read it because it shows the real world of voodoo.
 
 
ghadis
07:20 / 25.08.04
'The Serpernt and the Rainbow to me taught me all about Haitian culture and that is my 2 cents. Read it because it shows the real world of voodoo.'

Or just watch 'Live and Let Die'.


I'm not dissing the book too much, i really enjoyed it, but it does have a slight sensationalist side to it does it not?. Wade Davies' Indiana Jones type adventure into the dark underbelly of Haitian Voodoo in search of Zombies. Don't know about it showing the real world of Voodoo but it would make a damn scary film!!
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
07:32 / 25.08.04
ghadis you know wes craven did make it into a film with bill pullman right? not much to do with the book but lots of zombie-punching!!
 
 
ghadis
07:56 / 25.08.04
Yea I was being sarcastic or facetious or something…
 
 
at the scarwash
07:19 / 01.09.04
God, that Haskins book is absolutely useless. There is no method to his collection of material. He's very upfront in his admissions that he is neither a folklorist nor a practitioner, but I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. The whole damned thing just radiates this utter disinterest in the subject. All the background information on African religion seems like it was cribbed from a freshman Comparative Literature course that was itself plagiarized from an encyclopedia. The interview material went absolutely nowhere, and he seemed to have no interest in touching upon the actual spirituality followed by his subjects. Some of the formulas he describes are interesting, but there is no attribution of sources and they are written with a phone-directory level of literary style. For sloppy patronizing folklore, I'll take Gumbo Ya-Ya any day. At least Saxon and Tallant cite their sources.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:35 / 01.09.04
God, that Haskins book is absolutely useless. There is no method to his collection of material

Nah, I think its great. Divine Horsemen it aint, but if you read between the lines there's some great material to adapt and put to good use. Along with enough fantastically mad hoodoo stuff to keep you entertained for hours.

Paraphrasing from memory:

"Procure a cat and dog and get them to fight. Shave them and use the fur in sorcery to split up a couple"

"Get a toad and boil it till it dies. Keep the boiled toad in a jar beneath your bed"

"To make someone leave their dwelling, urinate on their doorstep at midnight for nine nights"

If you buy it expecting a textbook on magic or an anthropological account of hoodoo, you will be sorely dissapointed. That's not the sort of book it is, but there's loads and loads of ideas for creative sorcery in there, if you look at it through the right lens. And it is as funny as fuck in places as well.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:40 / 01.09.04
[I know this is getting a little thread-rotty, but bear with me a sec?]

Cat Yronwode also thinks very highly of Haskins's "Voodoo and Hoodoo," and even if he doesn't cite his sources she knows the original material well enough to cite for him:

[from an old Usenet post]
"Oh, and by the way, i left out the earliest published sources of information on hoodoo -- although Haskins mines them so thoroughly that one may need not go back to the originals unless one is a scholar. These are, in chronological order of publication:

"Negro Folk-Lore and Witchcraft in the South" by Louis Pendleton, Journal of American Folk-Lore Vol. 3, 1890.

"Superstitions of Georgia" by Ruby Andrews Moore, Journal of American Folk-Lore Vol. 5, 1892.

"Superstitions of Georgia" by Ruby Andrews Moore, Journal of American Folk-Lore Vol. 9, 1896.

"Conjuring and Conjure-Doctors in the Southern United States by [Miss]Herron and Miss A. M. Bacon, Journal of American Folk-Lore Vol. 9, 1896. [originally published in a lengthier form in Southern Workman and Hampton School Record, Nov. and Dec. 1895]

"Negro Conjuring and Tricking" by Julien A. Hall, Journal of American Folk-Lore Vol. 10, 1897. [note: "tricking" in African-American hoodoo parlance means casting a spell on someone; it does not mean fooling them -cat]

and finally, the work that was edited to become the 2nd half of the previously-mentioned 1935 book, "Mules and Men":

"Hoodoo in America" by Zora Neale Hurston, Journal of American Folk-Lore Vol. 44, 1931."


Seems like he has a slightly more stable base then we might expect.

(And back to the meat of the thread, sort of...) But it is important to note that Haskins is writing about hoodoo, not Vodou -- despite the title.

"Vodou" and "hoodoo" share some common lineage, and are unfortunately nearly identical phonetically, but they are definitely not interchangeable -- nor is hoodoo a "debased" form of Vodou, as is sometimes claimed.

As for Ross Heaven, I haven't read the book, but I know that he is not held in very high esteem (understatement) by the Haitian Vodou community, because his book allegedly reveals information that he was sworn to secrecy about (essentially, he broke his initiatory oaths to the Roots Without End Society, and the buzz is that he's in a lot of trouble with the lwa).

Just to add a little to the list of resources already mentioned, the Yahoo discussion group Vodou Arts is a good place to speak with international Vodouisants and it's run by Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout, the head of the Roots Without End Society in Haiti. It's a pretty friendly group as long as you stay civil, and it's given me a much better look at the day-to-day practice of Vodou and service to the lwa than I got from the books.

Have fun!

~L
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:15 / 01.09.04
Yep, I'd second hanging out on the various forums that Mambo Racine runs. One of the best ways to get a better idea of how the various religions function in practice today, and the general discourse around them. Keep in mind that you're very much on someone else's turf though.

The Ross Heaven situation has caused a bit of consternation hasn't it. I met him once, briefly, and he seemed like a nice enough bloke. But I wouldn't fancy being in his shoes with all of that... extremely dodgy territory. Around the time that book came out he was doing talks and billing himself as "the only licensed Vodou practitioner in the UK" which I think ruffled a few feathers with a few people... I keep writing letters to Lambeth council for one of those licences but they never return my calls.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:21 / 01.09.04
Interesting to note that in the pages of recent comic books, there's an ad for a Lollapalooza/Woodstock type concert series called "2004 VOODOO" - the logo is a shrunken head-type thing with a bone necklace. Bizarre.
 
 
at the scarwash
04:43 / 02.09.04
I agree that there are some passages in Haskins that have some interest, but I'd rather go through his archives than read it. In picking it up, I wasn't after a book for practitioners, nor particularly after a decent piece of scholarly folklore. I was more interested in what seemed to be a book full of first personal anecdotal accounts by persons following the root doctor/hoodoo traditions. It seems to me that in the parts of Hoodoo and Voodoo that are from interviews, Haskins got bored transcribing the interviews and would just sum it up in a few dead sentences. That's why I said give me Gumbo Ya-Ya anyday. Tallant and Saxon might be racist and patronizing, but they do allow their subjects to speak for themselves.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
04:19 / 05.09.04
Perhaps this is threadrot, but perchance it'll spark some further thought/commentary...

Meh.

I got into magick from the Invisibles (I know - welcome to the club), and so my first academic toe-dippings involved Pop Mag!k and Peter Carrol. Reading the Chaos Magic essentials - Results First, and Use Whatever Works - I couldn't help but think 'Didn't Voodoo already go there, and then some?' Voodoo seems devoted to getting results in the physical, and it's already survived several different periods of acculturation/culture-change/cultural appropriation. The example of that which poked out of my mind was the transition from its origin through Christianity, during which saints were considered Lwa and more or less directly incorporated into the spirit-human relations that Voodoo had through people like Papa Gede and Papa Legba. Y'know - Papa Legba becomes/comes through Saint Lazarus, or whomever. The names change but the practices and results stay the same.

So, is Voodoo what Chaos Magick ought to be? Or similiar to what it seeks to be? I don't mean to cheapen either tradition through the comparison (though people on either side may disagree), though personally I feel that Voodoo feels and works better than straight-up, 'let's do a million sigils' Chaos Magick. I guess that oversimplifies Chaos Magick, but my beliefs (forged of readings and practices) indicate that it's much more skeletal than the fleshed-out, atmospheric tang Voodoo has.
 
 
Hellboy
19:45 / 19.12.05
Have you read about Alpen Voodoo. Have somebody heard about it?? A friend recently told my about this. He said that is a mix between voodoo and chaos magick, I'v been searching references but I can't find a fucking article or book.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:15 / 19.12.05
Sounds more like a mix between Vodou and muesli.
 
 
Shrug
01:05 / 20.12.05
Try this site.

Contains this bit of informative text.

Alpenvoodoo brings us the access to the Loas,
half traditionally half "chaos magically?".

The Alpenvodoo-History:

The Drum Days 1996, one of the Magic Circle projects brought the right people together to start an open practical voodoo working group. Sor. Rael organised the first Alpenvooodoo in 1997. 3 days of practical voodoo-experience. It was a great experience, but we all still had our doubts in this project. 1998, during the next alpenvoodoo, a big exu/papa legba rite was performed, time synchroniced with our friends in Benin. This was a head blowing experience. Now we knew, that we had to go on with our work. Several intense meetings followed and an IOT-temple "Eleggua Calling" grew out of it. The last Alpenvoodoo-meeting took place in Austria near Vienna in july 2002.
 
 
at the scarwash
04:52 / 20.12.05
Because this just got bumped,I'd like to ask if anyone has read Urban Voodoo: A Beginners Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic, by S. Jason Black and Christopher S. Hyatt (phd). It's the most enjoyable book on the subject I've read in quite a while. Although the practicable meat of the book could easily be cobbled together from many of the commonly remainder-tabled books on the subject, the text is made rich by the "fuck off, this is real!" style that both writers bring to their personal experiences, as well as the fact that the book reads as if it were written by Ignignokt and Urr, the Mooninites of Aquateen Hunger Force.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:10 / 20.12.05
"Urban Voodoo" is a fucking appalling book. 40% "spooky" ghost stories that have fuck all to do with Vodou, 50% Hyatt bitching about Christianity (again...) despite the fact that the great majority of Vodou and Santeria people would consider themselves devout Catholics, and 10% not particularly well informed Lukumi. It's bollocks. With all that padding, it reads like about 2 months research went into it before the authors considered themselves expert enough to write a book on it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:20 / 20.12.05
Alpenvoodoo brings us the access to the Loas, half traditionally half "chaos magically?".

"Alpenvoodoo brings us access to the Loa, in a way that doesn't involve any actual black people or awareness of the historical events that led to the development of the religion - but does explain it all sensibly in a way that nice middle class kids can make use of as a chaos magic paradigm"
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:31 / 20.12.05
Just had a look at that site. Oh... dear.

You know there was this one time I got tapped for an offering for Ellegua and I forgot to get His cigar. He was pretty clear about the cigar, but I thought He'd be okay with just the rum and a big packet of sweeties. The day after the offering I got stuck for six hours on Montjuic. Went out for a walk, and when it got dark and I tried to get back to my house... Everywhere I went, there was a locked gate or a closed road. Six fucking hours. And that was with Him cutting me slack for being a clueless outsider.

I'm just sayin'.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:00 / 20.12.05
I like the bit about the "Wholly Guardian Angel"
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:05 / 20.12.05
As opposed to the Part-Time Guardian Angel, or the Vaguely Interested But Likely To Wander Off And Start Making A Sandwich If It Gets Bored Angel?
 
 
Quantum
10:51 / 20.12.05
My Partial Guardian Angel (just wings and a head) told me to steer clear, I won't be risking that link.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:54 / 20.12.05
I have been reading a photobook by gert chesi called voodoo africas secret power, great pictures, it about western african voodoo, yoruba and others.

The intresting part for me, is that contrary to what i learnt from supposedly authentic modern vodou practitioners, i see pictures of altars containing shiva and ganesh alongside mamawati with crucifixes, with traditional irons and an islamic influence in fact all sorts of influences brought into altar structures.

Perhaps its only the new world vodou that has tried to define itself within such limited parametres, as the pictures portrayed in this book are certainly opening me up to what may actually be incorporated into ATR's.

I am wondering if it could be the case that new world ATR's have in fact adopted the idea of tradition from the conservative ideas present within christianised, ideas of tradition. In fact it seems likely.

The historical context of islam christianity and hinduism in africa is understood in relation to slavery and trade, but i am wondering if these traditions were considered as oppressors why they would be included in relatively modern african altar structures.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:55 / 20.12.05
Different houses do things in different ways, so you will find huge variety of beliefs from house to house, village to village, in Haiti and elsewhere. What is consistent is that the Lwa are happy with any new elements you bring into practice. I've seen photos of Haitian altars that have little figures of Batman or Darth Vader to represent Barons. If the Lwa are cool with something, it can be incorporated; if they aren't it can't.

Some of the more orthodox new world houses, especially some branches of Santeria, do receive criticism that in trying to "legitimise" their practices in the eyes of the western world, they emphasise the factors that characterise western religion not African religion. But I think you're generalising a little with your observation, as you're only looking at a miniscule sample. When you talk about "authentic modern voodoo practitioners" you are talking about the tiny minority with an internet connection that you are exposed to (e.g. Mambo Racine and her various mailing lists), similarly you're looking at a handful of photos from an entire continent.

I think it is a lot more flexible and open to syncretism than some of its more vocal proponents might have you believe - but the essential thing is that other aspects can only be incorporated if the Lwa are happy with them. You need to have the relationships in place before you can start messing around with anything. You can't just make stuff up and jumble it together cos you feel like it. You need to make sure the Lwa are into it. You need to make sure it works for them as much as it does for you. It's the difference between bringing something new to the table, and appropriating from a culture for your own ends.
 
 
Shrug
12:36 / 20.12.05
I'm not really in any position to comment on content but at least now you know it's best avoided.
 
 
Hellboy
16:16 / 21.12.05
thanks for the alpenvoodoo links.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:15 / 21.12.05
It may sound silly, but I half-seriously grabbed A Complete Idiots Guide to Voodoo off a shelf and found it very illuminating. From a historical/anthropological perspective, anyway. It's got a lot of fluff and crap, but you can get most of the good stuff from it in under an hour. Filled in a lot of gaps for me re: the history.
 
 
Katherine
20:27 / 22.12.05
I've been recommended that book, it's apparently* really good.


*"apparently" is there because I haven't personally read it yet.
 
 
jeed
20:56 / 22.12.05
I'd second 'Mama Lola', and also 'Divine Horsemen' - i think someone posted a link to the film on here a while back, i couldn't find it when i searched though.

I'd also recommend this, which i picked up in the local library. I can't find it on amazon.co.uk but you might be able to find it yourself elsewhere...

link

It's a really excellent look at a lot of the traditions that inform vodou and santeria. There's a fair bit of history, but it's mainly about how the traditional religions are practised in Africa now, and how they're evolving, and some of the photos are amazing.

Recommended if you can get hold of it.
 
  
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