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Human population growth threatens water supply.

 
 
Nobody's girl
15:59 / 15.08.04
BBC report on recent World Water Week Conference.

Apparently the solution is to eat less meat to conserve the water we give to animals farmed for meat, using it on fruit and vegetable crops instead.

It concerns me that our population is going to be so big that the Earth is unable to supply enough water to sustain us with the level of abundance we're used to. Surely this is an irresponsible increase in our population? Doesn't this mean population control is a critical priority to ensure our species survival?
 
 
Triplets
23:27 / 15.08.04
Yeah, but are you going to tell that to the "OMG PPL HAVE THE RITE 2 HAVE KIDS" masses? They'd shit on your beaten corpse.

Unless someone can highlight the dangers in a real and effective way it's going to be an extinction level problem. And even if we do do something NOW, what about us when we've forgotten in 20 years time? Look at AIDS, 20 years after that media campaign and people don't give three shits about it any more.

All we can do, probably, is postpone the inevitable.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:30 / 16.08.04
I've often thought about stuff like this -- whether when I'm 82, the basics of food and water in America (or the world) will be different than they are now. As that tap water runs on the sink, or as we eat pretty much whatever and however much we want -- will that change? It's a scary thought...the idea that in about 20 years things might be very, very different, and the West might learn what it's like to not be the West, food and water-wise.
 
 
Axolotl
15:02 / 16.08.04
I always think that people always assume that things will be better in the future as for the majority of people in the western world this has been the case for the past few hundred years. However historically such long periods of prosperity have been rare and always come to an end. There is a possibility that our kids and grandchildren could well have a worse standard of living than us, and I would be very suprised if they had such a high calorie intake as us.
Malthus is a gloomy bugger, but I wouldn't be suprised if he gets the last laugh.
 
 
charrellz
22:14 / 17.08.04
I'm confused. How do we run out of water? Doesn't water kinda recycle itself. I seem to recall some poster about the water cycle in middle school science. Is there some crucial part I'm missing?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:34 / 18.08.04
Well, bare in mind I know nothing about the subject but consider global warming, if the earth gets hotter then water will evaporate and turn in to clouds, with the earth being too hot for it to ever rain.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:12 / 18.08.04
It also helps if it's not poisonous.
 
 
Axolotl
11:17 / 18.08.04
Charrelz, while water in its free form does recycle itself it can get tied up in organisms as most organic matter contains a lot of water. Therefore the more animals (including people) there are in existence the less water there is forming part of the hydrological cycle (that you learnt about in school)and the less there is to go round.
 
 
LykeX
01:58 / 19.08.04
And, like Stoatie mentioned, an increasing amount of water is being polluted, for ecample by pesticides, reducing the amount of water you can actually drink.
Many developing nations have problems with water because they don't have the facilities to purify it. The result is a great risk of epidemics, for example cholera.
 
 
Triplets
10:49 / 19.08.04
Hang on, can't we just, y'know, make MORE water?
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:32 / 19.08.04
...are you serious?
 
 
Triplets
23:07 / 19.08.04
Completely.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:16 / 20.08.04
I assume that if it were that easy then it wouldn't be a problem...
 
 
diz
15:12 / 20.08.04
Surely this is an irresponsible increase in our population? Doesn't this mean population control is a critical priority to ensure our species survival?

Unless someone can highlight the dangers in a real and effective way it's going to be an extinction level problem.


this is unnecessarily alarmist.

first of all, it's unlikely that humanity would ever go extinct due to overpopulation, because, long-term, overpopulation corrects itself. too many people for the water supply? a lot of people starve to death and die of thirst, no more overpopulation, problem solved. it's an ugly place to live for a few generations, but in the life of a species on an evolutionary scale, that's just a blip. disease, malnutrition, and such will prevent us from going extinct over this, for better or worse.

second, top-down population control may be more trouble than it's worth. i don't have a problem with it in principle, but let's take a look at China's one-child policy. Chinese society places a lot of cultural importance on families having a male heir, so if people are going to only have one kid, there are a lot of people who are going to make sure it's a boy. aside from the inevitable infanticide, which i frankly could give a shit about but i realize i'm in the minority there, there are issues with population imbalance. the ratio of males to females under a certain age in China is way, way off, and there's been a lot of work to suggest that an overabundance of males in relation to females is a big demographic predictor of instability and wars of aggression. not because males are more violent or what-have-you, but people end up getting raised with social and cultural expectations that cannot be filled by the society itself. you grow up as a hetero male, seeing adults paired up in hetero couples and being told that you're going to find one one day when you get older, you're going to expect to be able to find a suitable partner. even a fairly small imbalance is going to make that difficult. you're pissed off, and so are all your friends. pretty soon you have crowds of pissed-off young men just ripe for someone to come along and give them a target to blame for society screwing them over. that's a recipe for trouble, and a lot of people expect serious trouble out of China within a generation as a result.

that's just one of the many things that can go wrong. if nothing else, people resent having their reproduction overtly interfered with because it's the primal evolutionary drive, so if you're going to do something to get their numbers down, you really should do something less blunt if you don't want trouble.

third, all this is presuming that everything except the current rate of population growth either stays the same or doesn't change the rate of population growth, but that's not necessarily true. economic development slows down population growth after a certain point. in other words, when industrialization first hits, all the health care and sanitation and social services cause the population to skyrocket for a while, but then after the dust settles, parents change their evolutionary tactics. at some point, having fewer kids and investing more resources in each of them is a better strategy for the long-term propagation of your genes, and so birth rates slow down. that's why Europe, Japan, and the US have low birthrates compared to most developing countries. so as economic development proceeds in the developing world, birth rates will go down. even if you have little to no faith in development in the southern hemisphere, a lot of the population of poorer countries is going to end up in the developed countries, who are going to be a little short of labor power due to the slow population growth rate, so a lot of the children being born in the developing world will be having children in the developed world, where they will be absorbed into psotindustrial societies and their birth rate will slow down.

another thing that can change is technology. the amount of water available isn't fixed - it fluctuates with the efficiency with which we use it. right now, pollution is a major inefficiency dragging down overall water availability, and we should make combatting that a priority. the point about overall meat consumption is also well-taken, so maybe we should look at ways to scale that back. another technology that we can work on making more efficient is water desalinization, which is already seeing extensive use in certain parts of the world. if we can turn seawater into freshwater cheaply and efficiently, we have no drinking water problem (though we might need to worry about what that does, long-term, to the ocean ecologies).
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:29 / 21.08.04
overpopulation corrects itself. too many people for the water supply? a lot of people starve to death and die of thirst, no more overpopulation, problem solved.

Yeah. That's kind of my concern here. Call me sentimental, but I prefer it when my fellow man doesn't needlessly suffer.

aside from the inevitable infanticide, which i frankly could give a shit about but i realize i'm in the minority there

You certainly are in the minority on that one.

that's a recipe for trouble, and a lot of people expect serious trouble out of China within a generation as a result.

And you call ME alarmist! "trouble from China" is on it's way for a whole host of reasons, I very much doubt the lack of pussy will be the defining factor. But let me start a Switchboard thread on that one, we'll see where it takes us.

, people resent having their reproduction overtly interfered with because it's the primal evolutionary drive, so if you're going to do something to get their numbers down, you really should do something less blunt if you don't want trouble.

I think if people understood that their descendants were going to have to suffer starvation and water wars because of overpopulation they might consider having less kids. I know I am. It's the whole "What kind of planet am I leaving for my kids?" thing.

when industrialization first hits, all the health care and sanitation and social services cause the population to skyrocket for a while, but then after the dust settles, parents change their evolutionary tactics. at some point, having fewer kids and investing more resources in each of them is a better strategy for the long-term propagation of your genes, and so birth rates slow down

Yes, you are right. However considering that the timetable given at the Conference I mentioned is as soon a 2025, I haven't much faith that developing countries will have achieved anything like the quality of living I experience in Europe in the next 21 years. Something like a water crisis is likely to set back the development of these countries as well. More civil wars, more massacres, more strife. Hardly a recipe for high investment offspring.

another thing that can change is technology. the amount of water available isn't fixed - it fluctuates with the efficiency with which we use it. right now, pollution is a major inefficiency dragging down overall water availability, and we should make combatting that a priority. the point about overall meat consumption is also well-taken, so maybe we should look at ways to scale that back

Yup, that is definately a priority, my point is that perhaps we could tackle it with a dual attack of global population control AND conservation efforts.

Not so hot on the whole desalinization proposal.
My point is that if we have reached the point where our supply of freshwater is threatened then that should be our terminal population as a species. If we just try and find more ways of postponing the problem it's just going to become more and more devastating when we DO have to address population growth. I don't think 9 billion people are going to take being told to stop reproducing so much any better than 6 billion, so we may as well do it now while resources are (relatively) abundant.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:13 / 23.08.04
This story made it to the main news page on Yahoo -- only for like half a day, but even so, it's cool that it made it to the mainstream. I don't think CNN carried it. The Yahoo story was headlined something like "Conference says wars over water possible". The article said something like "Wars have been fought over oil and money, now wars may be fought over water due to likely water scarcity in the immediate future."
 
 
Axolotl
11:53 / 24.08.04
Here is a link to the wikipedia article on water resources. It's a pretty good primer on both the scientific reasons behind the problem and the social issues arising from the problem. Worth checking out. A couple of other examples of water resources being a source of conflict is with India and Pakistan and of course the Middle East.
 
 
telyn
23:54 / 25.08.04
I think that global population increase means we have to use every resource more efficiently, and water is just one part of that. Unfortunately water is a very localised phenomena, and it's not easy to transport (although you can transport water-needing produce eg grain).

If you consider the climates of the developed world it becomes apparent that the countries that industrialised earliest had a good consistent water supply. Temperate Europe has a always had a great advantage over dry Africa simply because living is easier when you have ample (water) supplies. It shouldn't be surprising that the areas which now have population problems and water shortages are those which have always had water shortages; they haven't had the spare resources to develop or buy useful things like oral contraceptives and good sanitation. Until those areas have adequate sanitation the families have a incredibly strong reason to reproduce many times, they need to make sure some children survive.

I agree that this is a particularly vicious cycle, and that if population growth was reigned in the existing children would have a greater chance to survive. However trying to persuade a population which has that expectation of death ingrained into their culture without first changing their environment is unlikely to work.

I don't think that you can enforce a population curb on another nation, developed or not. The only way to help is to create methods to use the water already there more efficiently and not polute it. The BBC has a "Have your say" page on the water debate. Some of the view points - like a Malaysian voluntary worker in India seeing fresh water holes filled with rubbish - are really worth reading.
 
 
grant
13:30 / 26.08.04
Well, the new New Scientist has a piece on water resources with the calming headline "Asian farmers sucking the continent dry."

Apparently, part of the deal is an agricultural revolution. Instead of irrigating from shallow wells with buckets, as was the method a generation ago, today's Indian farmers use adapted oil wells to get right down to the groundwater, and irrigate with it all night long without any gov't regulation. There are around 21 million of these wells, with another million coming every year, sucking up 200 cubic kilometers of water annually. So the groundwater that feeds the wells is drying up.

Here's the fun news from across Asia:

In China's breadbasket, the north China plain, 30 cubic kilometres more water is being pumped to the surface each year by farmers than is replaced by the rain. Groundwater is used to produce 40 per cent of the country's grain, and Chinese officials warned this week that water shortages will soon make the country dependent on grain imports.

Vietnam has quadrupled its number of tube wells in the past decade to one million, and water tables are plunging in the Pakistani state of Punjab, which produces 90 per cent of the country's food.

In India, more farmers now provide their own water via wells and pumps than rely on the government's irrigation system, which is based on a network of canals. Corrupt management, low investment and drying rivers have made the national system increasingly decrepit, and it rarely delivers water to farmers when they need it.

In contrast, the $600 pumps are bringing short-term prosperity to much of the country, turning India from a land of famine to a major rice exporter in less than a generation.

Indian farmers have invested some $12 billion in the new pumps, but they constantly have to drill deeper to keep pace with falling water tables. Meanwhile, half of India's traditional hand-dug wells and millions of shallower tube wells have already dried up, bringing a spate of suicides among those who rely on them. Electricity blackouts are reaching epidemic proportions in states where half of the electricity is used to pump water from depths of up to a kilometre.



Also, I love the second of these two solutions they're implementing:

Some states are placing thousands of small dams across river beds in a bid to replenish groundwater by infiltration. And Hindu water priests are organising farmers to capture the monsoon rains in ponds, in the hope that water will infiltrate and recharge the aquifers.
 
 
Bomb The Past
17:08 / 26.08.04
Tonight's 'Costing The Earth' on Radio 4 is about the possibility of a water-war involving Egypt. You can hear it online for up to a week afterwards here once it's been broadcast in about two hours time.
 
  
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