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The Devil, Satan, Lucifer, and all the rest…

 
 
Tamayyurt
18:46 / 11.08.04
Okay, I was having a discussion with a friend about the origin of this being, the other day and we where really surprised how much we didn't know about him. I mean, we're awear of the modern depiction of a red man with horns and a tail who takes your soul in return for something cool, but that's a pretty recent portrayal, right? What is all this based on?

So who is he? Does he appear in the bible at all? I know he had a hand in making Job’s life more interesting and many people equate him with the snake in the garden? Where else does he show up? He tempts Jesus at one point, right? Is there an actual origin story in the bible that says he got kicked out of heaven for being hot shit? I don’t know much about the biblical or historical aspects of this character. Where do all the names come from? Are they all the same guy? Please, I know there are smarter, more versed, people out there. Enlighten me.
 
 
Jack_Rackem
19:15 / 11.08.04
Satan/Lucifer/Krampus whatever is a pretty difficult topic as is more or less an analgamation of older deities as is the classic narrative of Christ. Satan is viewed as a mix of Pan and Prometheus.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:34 / 11.08.04
I know of the common conception of "Satan" as an amalgam between the Biblical figure, who himself undergoes a transformation between the Old and New Testaments, and the pagan "teufel" or Pan-figure.

from LuckyMojo

In the Old Testament Satan is much more of a figure concurrant with the "fallen angel" role and still a servant of the Almighty. In the New, however, he takes on a much more powerful role as an almost direct adversary of Christ. In the Pauline cult, Satan became a figure of cosmic proportions as a Christ-adversary.

Don't know much more than that. Anyone else? And has anyone directly worked with these entities?
 
 
Tamayyurt
20:27 / 11.08.04
In the Old Testament Satan is much more of a figure concurrant with the "fallen angel" role and still a servant of the Almighty. In the New, however, he takes on a much more powerful role as an almost direct adversary of Christ.

Can you give more specific locations in the bible?
 
 
LykeX
20:30 / 11.08.04
I've worked a bit with Lucifer, using a (medieval christian) symbol I got from some book or other. I asked for a bit of help on some matters an promised in return to tell people of how he helped me to "further his glories" or something.
So consider this the August installment
For example, he helped me on some tests that I thought for sure I would do horribly on. My method was meditation on the symbol, addressing him as if he was there with me, and then putting the symbol underneath my pillow at night.

I worked from the assumption that he was more like Prometheus that Satan, almost from a gnostic point of view. That he was interested in helping mankind and therefore willing to help with any problem, if I gave some token of appreciation.
Do not attribute objective reality or philosophical validity to any of these results, but do try for yourself

Personally, I like the thought of the renegade enlightener more than the evil demon (since it's hard to deal with someone who's only desire is to take your soul) and I also find it more believable. The Prometheus-spin seems more like a real person to me.
 
 
the cat's iao
00:25 / 12.08.04
IIRC, the word 'satan' means "adversary". Originally, a satan wasn't a singular entity, but an angel acting in a specific role to accomplish the will of God. A satan would test a man's faith (like Job); however, through the years this reading has become extinct, and now, most (perhaps all) copies of the bible refer to Satan (with the capital S) as a singular entity. So there you go: from a role of any old angel, to the name of a specific angel.
 
 
Jack_Rackem
02:33 / 12.08.04
I'm just wondering, this may sound a little naive. But do some people summom the popular/Judeo-Christian form of Satan aside from some kids trying to mess around.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:32 / 12.08.04
Found article The Origins of Satan - dunno how 'accurate' it is, tho'.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:47 / 12.08.04
Disinformation's "the Book of Lies" has an interesting article in it about the differences between Lucifer, Satan and another character beginning with A......whose name eludes me at the moment

I could not do this article justice but from memory each aspect of this triangle represents another way in which mankind is being drawn away from the teachings of Jesus (it was more of a Gnostic type idea than traditional Christianity the way I read it)

One was false Spirituality

another was cold technological advancement

basically, I am doing this No justice at all but if you can get hold of THE BOOK OF LIES, it is an interesting take on the whole subject
 
 
SteppersFan
09:45 / 12.08.04
IIRC, Satan came from the Arabic Shaitan, adversary.

Lucifer is a corruption of Luxifer, or light bringer.

All a bit of a con, as you can imagine.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:57 / 12.08.04
Peter Stanford's The Devil An Autobiography might be worth a look too.
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
13:27 / 12.08.04
absence of gravitas- that's a good link, nice summary of some info I've run across myself (and some of the info posted here, too.)

joetheneophyte- "Book of Lies" is great, I just picked it up a few days ago. I haven't got to that article, but I may skip ahead and read it next

A little while ago I was talking to a friend of mine about this, specifically the Zoroastrian twist- how to some it seems that the roles of Ahura Mazda and his opposing opposite transferred places... gack, my memory (and google) is failing me. I'll brush up a bit more and post again. Or maybe I'll just prod him with a hot stick and get him to post it.

BTW, check out the Izedis/Yezedi spin on the entire lucifer/devil thing...
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
16:25 / 12.08.04
joetheneophyte - I think the other devil you're missing is Abraxas..I think it's from a roman origin, and it's mentioned in Herman Hesse's "Demian".

I just read a book by Franz Hinkelammert called "Abraham's faith and the western oedipus" (roughly translated) in which the author says that Lucifer was the original or primitive name of Jesus...which would be fitting, if you see JC as a lightbringer, like Prometheus.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:50 / 12.08.04
the word 'satan' means "adversary"

I think the interesting thing to do with a religious entity like satan is to view it not in terms of origin but rather observe the role it takes in society. That almost leads to an understanding of the origin. We live in a strangely binary world- everything's about absolutes- good and bad, black and white and it does cause a lot of tension so it's not surprising that satan means adversary at all. I think you can probably come to more of an understanding of satan by exploring the way that we think in terms of the positioning of satan as against god. Then it might be an idea, once you feel that you've got enough information to look at something like voodoo, which treats this type of positioning in a completely different way.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
23:36 / 12.08.04
The "Book of Lies" figure is Ahriman, from Rudolf Steiner's work.

Satan is mentioned in the Book of Job as a figure sent to test Job per God's will. I haven't studied the Bible intensely but I do know "Satan" (in my capitalized) version makes other appearances in a similar role. Then comes the New Testament, where Satan is referred to as independent of God's will, testing and tempting Jesus. Then there is the Book of Revelations, which deals in a slightly different direction: God is ultimately responsible for all that happens, but that includes the Beast of the Apocalypse, the Antichrist, et al.

(I'll research this more next week and post a more thorough article.)

The modern conception of Satan comes largely from Milton, however - and most popularly from Lord Byron and the Romantics associated with him - dramatic Promethean characters in rebellion against tyrannical authority.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:44 / 13.08.04
I suppose the important thing to remember is that Satan/Lucifer/the Devil whatever on some level does represent rebellion

which one might think is bad

but as the Gnostics believed that the CATHOLIC God was a demiurge..................maybe rebellion might be a good thing ?

I have a problem with Yahweh being the supreme being.....or the Old Testament version anyway.......too much smite'ing for my liking. It is a bit too 'Star Trek V ' of an entity for me. What kind of supreme being tells it's followers to go and kill that village over there because they don't agree with Circumcision? What kind of God asks it's followers to cut off a bit of pecker skin anyway?

I know it isn't all to be taken literally (the Bible ...not the pecker) but if it comes to stating little boys should have their bits snipped, then the other guy (the Devil) looks slightly less evil in my eyes

So a little bit of rebellion in that sense IS a good thing (imo)
 
 
grant
14:52 / 13.08.04
I think it's in Isaiah that the Morning Star is equated with Lucifer, as a light falling from Heaven.

A lot of these conceptions of Satan have to do with the interaction between Greek & Hebrew myth systems, with the light-bringing Lucifer trading places with God's Prosecuting Attorney, the Opposer, Satan. Then that gets laid over European pagan ideas of the horned/horny god out in the woods, threatening the civilized towns with his dark lusts.
 
 
cirranon
16:27 / 13.08.04
The Adversary is such a complicated and controversial subject. Even fundamentalist evangelical christians don't agree on what's going on. Some of them believe, for example, that the Devil was specifically created by God to be a thorn in mankind's side, (because obviously God is in charge of EVERYTHING and so no one can do anything unless it's part of His plan). They base this idea on Isaiah 54:16 - " 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy." The Waster is sometimes translated Ravager - but it's interpreted as representing the Adversary through the lenses of the New Testament.

Like most things, the origins and roles seem to have always been a matter of perspective and definition. The idea of "evil spirits" is pretty old. The idea of an Evil Spirit that was a supreme world power in and of itself, part of a duatheistic system, originated as far as anyone knows with Zoroastrianism, (the Ahriman/Ahura-Mazda dichotomy). The Christian concept was probably influenced by this system. It seems to have been influenced by this material in many other ways!

Furthermore, even the NAME of Satan, as has already been said, seems to have originally been an office rather than an idividual. The Book of Enoch describes them.

Enoch 40:7 - "7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth."
Enoch 65:6 - "6 And a command has gone forth from the presence of the Lord concerning those who dwell on the earth that their ruin is accomplished because they have learnt all the secrets of the angels, and all the violence of the Satans, and all their powers -the most secret ones- and all the power of those who practice sorcery, and the power of witchcraft, and the power of those who make molten images."

So, those with the office of Satan, ("accuser"), DO appear to have the job of pointing out negative things to the Almighty, especially in relation to mankind. They are also not portrayed as having been very popular. (Interestingly, as Satan has in some traditions been seen as Jesus' twin brother, Jesus is potrayed as Makind's Interecessor, almost as if it were his job to point out the good things about mankind to God faster than Satan can bring up reasons to blast us).

Other beings/concepts have DEFINITELY been wrapped up in the current Judeo-Christian version of Old Scratch. In fact, the passage most responsible for the "Lucifer the Angel who falls from heaven after a battle" is not even considered to be relevant any longer. The Big Verse, Isaiah 14:12-17, "How you are fallen from heaven, O Luicifer, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’" is generally now thought to have had nothing to do with a spiritual entity at all, but rather to have referred to the Babylonian Kings which had imprisoned the Israelites, only to be defeated, allowing the Israelites to go home. The name itself comes from the Latin word for the star Venus, and the story came about due to the New Testament concept that Satan appears as an Angel of light and was cast out of heaven.

Another character who has been added to the mixture is that of Nechushtan, the Seraphim. Many scholars think that the Serpent of Wisdom in the Garden of Eden was actually an echo of this Egyptian Serpent Deity, who was imported and worshipped by the Israelites. You see his cult crop up again in the story of Moses, the Bronze Serpent, and the Fiery Serpents in the Wilderness. (The word for Fiery Serpent is Seraph). Nechushtan was a deity of fire and wisdom - not a nice guy, but not a world evil either. Interstingly enough, in the Haggadah, the Serpent in the garden is actually in CHARGE of the other creatures of the garden, and walks upright, and has hands.

Ultimately it seems to me that the idea of the Adversary/Satan is merely another riff on the idea of the Agent of Change. And so, as I stated before, whoever brings wisdom and prompts change is going to be viewed in a VERY different light depending on whether or not you like the change. And so, sometimes the Devil in one religion is the God of another. The Persian Ahura-Mazda/"Ahriman the Devil" dichotomy is paralleled by the Hindu Deva(il) vs. A(s)hura struggle - with the roles reversed and the numbers greatly multiplied. The Persians even had their own group of Satan Worshippers, the Yezidin. And the Gnostics, as has been pointed out, thought that Lucifer was the friend of Mankind and that the Judeo-Christian god was the true devil.

Depends on where your priorities lie, eh?
 
 
Digital Hermes
05:44 / 14.08.04
Another really major element here is Milton, who places such a large stamp on the Lucifer we know today. His pride, eloquence, savvy, and beauty, pretty much all stem from what Milton did with him in Paradise Lost. If you get a footnoted version, you can see where Milton grabbed all of his allusions.

Also, as far as I understand it, the poetic conceit of Lucifer as the snake also comes from Milton.

There is also a falling-due-to-pride motif that is being acted upon, and being reiterated from previous mythologies. A few examples: Icarus, Prometheus.

As far as I see it, there's a lot of assumptions about Lucifer by many that do not even know Milton's work. It's become a part of culture as we know it. Like Shakespeare, a lot of it has just become how we have learned it, and not until we read the original (Milton or Shakespeare) do we understand it's source.

Anyway.
 
 
Char Aina
15:15 / 16.08.04
does anyone have any linkage to that article about the origins of satan that named 'Enkidu' as the godform corrupted for christian use?
i think i found it here, but i cannae seem to google it up.
 
 
Sekhmet
15:39 / 16.08.04
Toksik - you may be thinking of Enki. Try googling "Enki and Enlil". They were twin Sumerian deities, the sons of Anu, who formed a dualistic rivalry with each other; Enki, like Satan, is sometimes referred to as "Prince of the World", and as I recall the tales basically place him in the Luciferian/Promethean/helper of mankind role.

One quote I found:

From a Biblical perspective, it was Enki who (with the critical assistance of his half-sister, Ninki, aka Nin-khursag) created Adam and Eve. It was Enlil, on the other hand, who created “Edin”. Enki was the serpent in the garden, who urged Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (which was infinitely beneficial to their spiritual growth). It was Enlil, who drove them out of Edin, while Enki was there to clothe them. It is worth noting that Zecharia Sitchin claims that the biblical word for “snake” is nahash, which comes from the root word NHSH, and which means “to decipher, to find out.” In other words, Enki, the God of Wisdom.
 
 
Char Aina
01:42 / 17.08.04
i'm pretty sure it was enkidu...
i still have a picture of him saved on my HD and i named it thus.
i guess it is probably the same person by another name, however, so from now on i shall google both versions.
cheers.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:34 / 17.08.04
Great post, Cirranon:

So, those with the office of Satan, ("accuser"), DO appear to have the job of pointing out negative things to the Almighty

So does that make the office of Satan broadly equivalent to a modern day business compliance department? Figures...
 
 
SteppersFan
11:43 / 17.08.04
Gypsy, I think we're talking about company functions (and external consulting services) that deal with quality, management accounting, disaster recovery, risk management, and in particular strategy, as well as legal compliance. All these have a role of asking potentially difficult questions of the firm and pointing out mission- or business-critical failures. Marketing really should be on the list too, but is rarely up to the task.
 
 
Mario
14:17 / 17.08.04
I always thought of the satans (small s) as being somewhat similar to God's District Attorney's. It's their role to convict humanity of their sins.

Eventually, in an attempt to be fair, the office of the public defender was created, and (in a move which might be considered nepotistic) the judge gave the role to His Son.
 
  
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