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Jerry Cornelius vs, Gideon Stargrave? Or: Wasn't JC Public Domain?

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

03:10 / 09.08.04

I've heard from numerous sources that Michael Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius was once "open source" or "public domain". Basicly a character that anyone could use as long as the gave the proper credits... (much like Octobriana).

Yet, despite this widely held belief, I can find no primary refrences to this being true and if it IS true, why the hubub over Gideon Stargrave?

Or was there really THAT much hubub over Stargrave? Sort of like the "Morrison sues the Watchoiski Sibs over the Matrix" stuff which got stupidly blown out of preprotion.

sleazenation

06:44 / 09.08.04

My understanding of the matter, and it is just my understanding of it -based on hazy recollections and no hard facts, is that JC was originally intended to be available for other people to use but Mr Moorcock changed his mind.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:40 / 09.08.04

I don't think there was actually that much fuss about GS...
but sleaze sounds about right. I know JC WAS open source, but no-one else seems to have used him for a good few years now (since, iirc, The New Nature Of The Catastrophe), which would make sense if the grumpy old bugger had indeed changed his mind.

I honestly don't recall a great deal of fuss... and remember, Moorcock absolutely adores Luther Arkwright, in part seemingly BECAUSE he's so much of a JC knock-off.

Lord Morgue

08:51 / 09.08.04

What's the normal deal- so many years after the creator's death, and the character becomes open-source? I hear Disney just got copyright laws CHANGED just so they could keep milking that fucking mouse for the next century. Exept in Russia, where we can screw the squeaky-voiced little rodent any way we want.
Can you actually declare something open-source, then retract it? Or is Moorcock just being a grumpy, senile old fart, like Kurt Vonnegut Jr. not letting Phillip José Farmer follow up "Venus on the Half Shell"?
Anyone seen the Jerry Cornelius movie, "The Final Programme"?

diz

11:41 / 09.08.04

Jerry Cornelius was and still is public domain. the problem was not that he used JC, but that he used JC and didn't acknolwedge for a while that it was JC, thereby failing to provide proper attribution. it apparently came across like "ooh, look at this fabulous new character i, Grant Morrison, created on my own with no help from Moorcock! i will name him Gideon Stargrave!"

sleazenation

11:50 / 09.08.04

Diz - have you got any references there for the public domains status of JC?

Anyone know Moorcock's current feelings towards JC?

Ben Danes

12:51 / 09.08.04

I'm pretty sure Morrison acknowledged that GS was inspired by Jerry in the letters page of the actual Invisbles issue.

If I remember correctly, Moorcock was upset that GS wasn't identified as JC in the story. But Grant wasn't using the actual character, rather the base of it (yeah, that's it), but did acknowledge who JC was based on in the letters page.

I prefer Stargrave anyway. Only read the Final Programme, but Stargrave had better one-liners in what, pages? "Christ, wishes do come true."

Ben Danes

12:52 / 09.08.04

Meant "what, in 10 pages?"

DaveBCooper

14:07 / 09.08.04

I know precious little about any of this, save to throw the following in : Didn’t Moebius use the character for a while, only to have Moorcock say he wasn’t keen on this being the case, leading to Moebius re-naming his character Lewis Carnelian ?
God knows where I’m dredging that up from, but I seem to remember reading it somewhere some years ago…

Tamayyurt

14:24 / 09.08.04

Lewis Carnelian? What a horrible name. You'd think someone named Moebius would have better taste.

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

14:40 / 09.08.04

Nice Jerry/Lewis association!

DaveBCooper

15:04 / 09.08.04

I guess it was because it has the same number of letters? Then again, Jerry Lewis is supposed to be very popular en France ?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:11 / 09.08.04

Well, in Moorcock's multiverse another incarnation of the Eternal Champion (ie, JC, Elric, Hawkmoon whichever) is Jherek Carnelian.

adamswish

19:38 / 09.08.04

Apologies if this is wrong, although I'm a huge fan of JC (although The English Assassin was a struggle) I'm not to hot on the open-source elements of him.

I think Moebius used JC in "Airtight Garage". I have seen links to it off various Moorcock websites (official and un-official) so he's not that pissed off about it.

And I do know he has returned to JC recently, writing stories around Diana's death, and 9/11. So maybe it was down to the timing of Stargrave's appearance.

Lord Morgue

02:50 / 10.08.04

But King Mob isn't really the Eternal Champion, is he? The character states himself that the early version of his fictionsuit, based on his own (Kirk Morrison's) literary plagiarism of Cornelius, was a result of "reading too much Moorcock as a kid". So, it's not Gazza ripping off Moorcock, it's Kirk. Blame the self-insertion, not the artist! See, anything can be blamed on Mary-Sue.

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